Guest MormonGator Posted February 5, 2018 Report Share Posted February 5, 2018 Just now, askandanswer said: There is a 6 volume set of books by B H Roberts called Comprehensive History of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints and another 7 volume set of books by B H Roberts called History of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints by Joseph Smith. The story about the kinderhook plates appears in the History of the Church but not in the Comprehensive History. Of the Comprehensive History, the First Presidency said, as recorded by the author in the Preface to Volume 1: "The Comprehensive History of the Mormon Church, by Elder B. H. Roberts, * * * and published in The Americana, is completed to recent date, and will form six large volumes when bound in book form, containing data and details collated in forcible style, most comprehensive and valuable for reference." I think the fact that the kinderhook story appears in one History of the Church by B H Roberts and not in the other History of the Church by Joseph Smith gives another reason why this story should be treated with caution. The most interesting thing about BH Roberts is if he personally kept his testimony in the Book of Mormon-I've read his "Studies of the Book of Mormon" and it's very, very complicated. He seems to have wavered several times in his life. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blossom76 Posted February 5, 2018 Author Report Share Posted February 5, 2018 22 minutes ago, Grunt said: Could you try to answer the question, please? It actually affects how I view your issue. Do you feel the church INTENTIONALLY tried to deceive or mislead people, or do you believe the someone made a mistake or used poor judgment? I wasn't there was I? I can only look at what is left for us. I can only REPEAT what I have already said, to answer you question 'I believe no matter what the intentions, it was dishonest' I'm not going to 'guess' what someone's intentions from 200 years ago were. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grunt Posted February 5, 2018 Report Share Posted February 5, 2018 (edited) 4 minutes ago, Blossom76 said: I wasn't there was I? I can only look at what is left for us. I can only REPEAT what I have already said, to answer you question 'I believe no matter what the intentions, it was dishonest' I'm not going to 'guess' what someone's intentions from 200 years ago were. But you ARE guessing. Dishonest means INTENDING to mislead or cheat. It's INTENTIONAL part that I'm taking issue with. I think you're using the word "dishonest" when you mean to use the word "wrong" Edited February 5, 2018 by Grunt Sunday21 and NeedleinA 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blossom76 Posted February 5, 2018 Author Report Share Posted February 5, 2018 I would like to make something 100% clear, I actually think the book of mormon is divinely inspired. All I am saying that there are a lot of problems, problems that people get attacked for bringing up, problems that need to at least be acknowledged. I do think the kinder hook plates and more importantly Book of Abraham problem is a big one and it does give me a lot of doubts because its supposed to be scripture, I don't think we can trust the book of Abraham is scripture. I don't understand why it is so hard for people to say - yes that's messed up, yes thats a problem, without trying to make 3 million excuses for why they think it happened like that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blossom76 Posted February 5, 2018 Author Report Share Posted February 5, 2018 (edited) 3 minutes ago, Grunt said: But you ARE guessing. Dishonest means INTENDING to mislead or cheat. It's INTENTIONAL part that I'm taking issue with. I think you're using the word "dishonest" when you mean to use the word "wrong" Now you're telling me how to use the English language, if I think something is dishonest, I"m entitled to that opinion Edited February 5, 2018 by Blossom76 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grunt Posted February 5, 2018 Report Share Posted February 5, 2018 1 minute ago, Blossom76 said: I don't understand why it is so hard for people to say - yes that's messed up, yes thats a problem, without trying to make 3 million excuses for why they think it happened like that. 1 Because not everyone thinks there is a problem. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blossom76 Posted February 5, 2018 Author Report Share Posted February 5, 2018 2 minutes ago, Grunt said: Because not everyone thinks there is a problem. Then why get so defensive over it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blossom76 Posted February 5, 2018 Author Report Share Posted February 5, 2018 3 hours ago, Grunt said: I got stuck on several church beliefs, almost to the point I was questioning truths I already knew. right here, you had problems with things yourself, so I don't know how you of all people can say something like that to me Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grunt Posted February 5, 2018 Report Share Posted February 5, 2018 3 minutes ago, Blossom76 said: Now you're telling me how to use the English language, if I think something is dishonest, I"m entitled to that opinion I'm not telling you anything. Words mean something. I was an English major, so I probably pay more attention to them than I should. I'm not trying to be argumentative, I'm trying to sincerely understand you because it doesn't make sense to me. I have an honest desire to understand you. To do that, I'm trying to understand what you mean by "dishonest" because to me someone who is dishonest intentionally tries to mislead people. You said you aren't saying it was intentional, so that's why I'm confused. Does that clear things up? 2 minutes ago, Blossom76 said: Then why get so defensive over it I don't know why some people get defensive. I think some of the people you believe are being defensive aren't really, they are just trying to explain their view to you and are having trouble. I believe other people are defensive, but I don't know why. Maybe they take it personally? Maybe they don't know how to express what they're trying to say. I can't speak for them. I'm not at all defensive, though. 3 minutes ago, Blossom76 said: right here, you had problems with things yourself, so I don't know how you of all people can say something like that to me Say what? I don't understand. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blossom76 Posted February 5, 2018 Author Report Share Posted February 5, 2018 1 minute ago, Grunt said: I'm not telling you anything. Words mean something. I was an English major, so I probably pay more attention to them than I should. I'm not trying to be argumentative, I'm trying to sincerely understand you because it doesn't make sense to me. I have an honest desire to understand you. To do that, I'm trying to understand what you mean by "dishonest" because to me someone who is dishonest intentionally tries to mislead people. You said you aren't saying it was intentional, so that's why I'm confused. Does that clear things up? I don't know why some people get defensive. I think some of the people you believe are being defensive aren't really, they are just trying to explain their view to you and are having trouble. I believe other people are defensive, but I don't know why. Maybe they take it personally? Maybe they don't know how to express what they're trying to say. I can't speak for them. I'm not at all defensive, though. Say what? I don't understand. You had issues yourself with certain aspects of this church, you took a long time to work through them, so to have issue with someone else doing the same thing I find very hypocritical Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grunt Posted February 5, 2018 Report Share Posted February 5, 2018 1 minute ago, Blossom76 said: You had issues yourself with certain aspects of this church, you took a long time to work through them, so to have issue with someone else doing the same thing I find very hypocritical I'm not sure where I gave you the impression that I had a problem with ANYTHING you were doing. Your path is your path. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blossom76 Posted February 5, 2018 Author Report Share Posted February 5, 2018 Just now, Grunt said: I'm not sure where I gave you the impression that I had a problem with ANYTHING you were doing. Your path is your path. Really? Mr English major, you're going to seriously write that after everything else you've written in this thread? 'Words mean something' remember. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grunt Posted February 5, 2018 Report Share Posted February 5, 2018 Just now, Blossom76 said: Really? Mr English major, you're going to seriously write that after everything else you've written in this thread? 'Words mean something' remember. Could you be more specific? I’m honestly not sure what you’re referring to. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blossom76 Posted February 5, 2018 Author Report Share Posted February 5, 2018 Just now, Grunt said: Could you be more specific? I’m honestly not sure what you’re referring to. Oh please, if you have to honestly ask that you should get your money back on that degree of yours. Perhaps you should read the tone of your comments and work it out yourself. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grunt Posted February 5, 2018 Report Share Posted February 5, 2018 1 minute ago, Blossom76 said: Oh please, if you have to honestly ask that you should get your money back on that degree of yours. Perhaps you should read the tone of your comments and work it out yourself. I’m sorry you took offense where none was intended. Good luck with your journey, wherever it may lead you. Blossom76 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sunday21 Posted February 5, 2018 Report Share Posted February 5, 2018 @Grunt Ahha! An English major! I knew it! (No I didn’t!) Look @MormonGator! Another one! Multiplying like rabbits! mirkwood and zil 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest MormonGator Posted February 5, 2018 Report Share Posted February 5, 2018 Just now, Sunday21 said: @Grunt Ahha! An English major! I knew it! (No I didn’t!) Look @MormonGator! Another one! Multiplying like rabbits! No sane person would ever major in English. Horrible people. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Just_A_Guy Posted February 5, 2018 Report Share Posted February 5, 2018 (edited) 3 hours ago, Blossom76 said: right there, that's not honest, and the way its presented is misleading, that's not honest What about 2 Samuel 12:8, which suggests God approved of David’s pre-Bathsheba polygamy? Does that make the Bible “dishonest”? 32 minutes ago, Blossom76 said: I do think the kinder hook plates and more importantly Book of Abraham problem is a big one and it does give me a lot of doubts because its supposed to be scripture, I don't think we can trust the book of Abraham is scripture. Did you even engage with the Don Bradley article on the Kinderhook plates that I posted? Quote I don't understand why it is so hard for people to say - yes that's messed up, , yes thats a problem, without trying to make 3 million excuses for why they think it happened like that Maybe because some of your historical conclusions are just plain wrong, and some folks here are sufficiently well-informed to know it? Edited February 5, 2018 by Just_A_Guy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grunt Posted February 5, 2018 Report Share Posted February 5, 2018 3 minutes ago, MormonGator said: No sane person would ever major in English. Horrible people. It’s why I went back for a degree in business. mirkwood, Blossom76 and Sunday21 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blossom76 Posted February 5, 2018 Author Report Share Posted February 5, 2018 (edited) 7 minutes ago, Just_A_Guy said: What about 2 Samuel 12:8, which suggests God approved of David’s pre-Bathsheba polygamy? Was that “dishonest”? Did you even engage with the Don Bradley article on the Kinderhook plates that I posted? Maybe because some of your historical conclusions are just plain wrong, and some folks here are sufficiently well-informed to know it? I don't believe everything in the bible is of God, after all men wrote it down, I don't believe polygamy is of God, and I never said the word dishonest to do with polygamy or the bible. Yes I read that article, I don't agree with it, but I read it. They are not just my conclusions, they are shared by a great many others, so maybe your conclusions are just plain wrong? Did you ever consider that? Or is that just for investigators to consider their own faiths are based on falsehoods, but mormons should never question anything right? And a great deal of these 'well informed' members you speak of readily admit that they haven't read both sides of the argument Edited February 5, 2018 by Blossom76 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest MormonGator Posted February 5, 2018 Report Share Posted February 5, 2018 2 minutes ago, Grunt said: It’s why I went back for a degree in business. It's why I panhandle in downtown Tampa. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Just_A_Guy Posted February 5, 2018 Report Share Posted February 5, 2018 3 hours ago, Blossom76 said: right there, that's not honest, and the way its presented is misleading, that's not honest What about 2 Samuel 12:8, which suggests God approved of David’s pre-Bathsheba polygamy? Was that “dishonest”? 26 minutes ago, Blossom76 said: I do think the kinder hook plates and more importantly Book of Abraham problem is a big one and it does give me a lot of doubts because its supposed to be scripture, I don't think we can trust the book of Abraham is scripture. Did you even engage with the Don Bradley article on the Kinderhook plates that I posted? I don't understand why it is so hard for people to say - yes that's messed up, , yes thats a problem, without trying to make 3 million excuses for why they think it happened like that Maybe because some of your historical conclusions are just plain wrong, and some folks here are sufficiently well-informed to know it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blossom76 Posted February 5, 2018 Author Report Share Posted February 5, 2018 1 minute ago, Just_A_Guy said: What about 2 Samuel 12:8, which suggests God approved of David’s pre-Bathsheba polygamy? Was that “dishonest”? Did you even engage with the Don Bradley article on the Kinderhook plates that I posted? Maybe because some of your historical conclusions are just plain wrong, and some folks here are sufficiently well-informed to know it? I already answered this post, not sure what happened, but I'll repost my answer for you I don't believe everything in the bible is of God, after all men wrote it down, I don't believe polygamy is of God, and I never said the word dishonest to do with polygamy or the bible. Yes I read that article, I don't agree with it, but I read it. They are not just my conclusions, they are shared by a great many others, so maybe your conclusions are just plain wrong? Did you ever consider that? Or is that just for investigators to consider their own faiths are based on falsehoods, but mormons should never question anything right? And a great deal of these 'well informed' members you speak of readily admit that they haven't read both sides of the argument Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sunday21 Posted February 5, 2018 Report Share Posted February 5, 2018 38 minutes ago, MormonGator said: No sane person would ever major in English. Horrible people. Brainy people! Can I mail you some papers to grade? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest MormonGator Posted February 5, 2018 Report Share Posted February 5, 2018 1 minute ago, Sunday21 said: Brainy people! Can I mail you some papers to grade? If you want brainy people, don't look at me @Sunday21. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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