What's the secret to winning, ignoring ridiculous American ideas...

[JohnsonJones]

When I was a parent, they gave out participation ribbons.  In many games, they did not keep score.  It was about inspiring children to actually ENJOY sports and participate in them rather than winning.

Children were more active, obesity was not that common among them, and sports was something that EVERYONE could enjoy.

Now days...there's some ignorant fool that has tried to spread the lie that participation ribbons are a new thing.  They IGNORE that we had participation ribbons in sports at least all the way back in the 50s (I can't vouch for before than, but I don't think there's a ton of folks that are actually still alive and active from before that time period who would actually make such ridiculous statements either) and that kids back then WERE more active and not obese.

In that light, the amount of kids actively participating in sports has fallen, those who enjoy sports and being outdoors has decreased, and obesity has exploded among children under the age of 18.  Because of false ideas about the past, people are of the idea that there should be no participation ribbons, and that ONLY the winners should get ribbons or awards.

Of course, to even HAVE winners, that means we have to actually KEEP score (in many recreational sports, no score was actually officially kept when I was a parent early on, it wasn't until the late 80s that we started seeing a bigger emphasis on score keeping).  We have actively created an atmosphere that promotes the kids that are naturally talented in atheletics to feel superior to those who are not...and I think it shows among our kids.

So...is there a better way.  Possibly...possibly not...but there is a DIFFERENT way.  This article on the Norwegians was written recently in the light that they are absolutely tearing us up in the medal count at the winter games.   The things they mention they do...actually sounds an AWFULLY LOT like how things used to be in the US, before some crazy individuals took up this idea that is was all about the winners of, rather than the participation in, sports.

Norway's no so secret, secret to success

Some things that I actually really enjoyed seeing, and it used to be this way in much of the US as well, before this recent wave of keeping score in little kids games and only the winners get participation ribbons....

Quote

It starts from their youth sports. In Norway, any organized youth sports teams cannot keep score until they are 13.

In an interview with Time, Tore Ovrebo, the director of elite sport for the Olympiatoppen, an organization that’s part of the Norwegian Olympic and Paralympic Committee and Confederation of Sports,  said that doing so helps the athlete enjoy the sport and extends their longevity.

“We want to leave the kids alone,” says Ovrebo. “We want them to play. We want them to develop, and be focused on social skills. They learn a lot from sports. They learn a lot from playing. They learn a lot from not being anxious.”

Other things that they bring up, which is something that starts when you start kids in sports...and means that in many cases...while they learn they will do terribly in games until they master the skill that they are being taught in how to do it better is to tell the kids to do something different.

This takes humility, and the ability to listen to others.  In addition, instead of raising a kid to be a glory hog because you want that kid to always be on the field if they can score because you are all about the winning, instead you focus on giving ALL the kids a chance because it is about TEAM (there is no I in TEAM), rather than the individual (Individual has three I's).

Just some thoughts while reading the article (link posted above) in relation to our current US culture and the changes that have occurred in it from when I was young, to when I was a parent, to the current status today.

Edited February 25, 2018 by JohnsonJones

[NightSG]

27 minutes ago, JohnsonJones said:

When I was a parent, they gave out participation ribbons.

Congratulations.  You've earned it.

 

[JohnsonJones]

Well, normally the ribbons had something else other than derogatory remarks towards the kids.  The idea is the same as the Norwegians have (which beat the Americans all over the place in the last Olympics...I suppose it's the Americans that need the ribbons that say something like..".lost big time after thinking about the Individual with 3 I's instead of TEAM with no I's" if we are going to hand out derogatory ribbons...they didn't even go "adequate" in that instance due to our focus on winning rather than encouragement)...

The ribbons were to let the kids have something from the games to remember the season and games from, to inspire the kids to get more into sports, to enjoy sports, and to actually get out there and exercise (so they weren't really FAT and OBESE like 50% of American kids are today).  Hopefully the kids could learn that sports were fun, and could develop talents that may be latent, rather than today where we see which kid can either run the fastest when they are 5 (but maybe not when they are 13) and praise that kid alone...OR if in certain sports, to praise the kid that has the most money (So they can afford the best cross country skies or other equipment). 

It's something that we used to do...but I think an entire generation of Americans have been jaded enough to punish their kids (for no reason at all except to put down half the kids out there and make them not want to do sports, exercise, or any other sort of thing so they get into video games all day and get obese and then can't even walk over 100 yards without wheezing) by saying only those that can win at sports should be rewarded and thus should be the ONLY ONES who play sports at a young age.  We lost a LOT of talent (lots of late bloomers in sports when I grew up and later, most of the greatest ball players didn't even start getting big until after high school, they were always shown up by the other kids prior to that.  Even in the later years, we see that occur, for example Michael Jordan who was never really a star until he went pro...at which point...some might say he was the greatest ball player to ever live).

It may seem funny to put down a ribbon that is derogatory, but to be honest, I think half the problem with our kids today is that we got away from making sports about participation and fun when they were young, and instead focused MORE on individuals, winning, and putting down the 90% of kids that were not among that "in" crowd type of system because they did not win (when we shouldn't even be counting points for non-teenage kids in the first place!).

We have 70X the population of Norway, the idea that we would normally get more medals is a given.  The idea that Norway even gets a quarter of the medals we do (much less has beaten the old US record for 37 medals in the Winter Olympics by winning 38 medals this time around) should make us ask...what is it about their system to encourage individuals to participate in sports that gets MORE success and more people in it in relation to the percentage of their population, than we do in the US?

I think it has a large deal to do with how they approach it when the children are young, and how they encourage children to participate in sports, the attitude the children get in regards to that sports (learning the right techniques as a child rather than just relying on talent...learning that it is a TEAM...rather than the individual that is praised...etc) and the continuation of that aspect of sports as they progress later in life.

I also think this is something that used to be extremely strong in the US, and one thing that set us up in the WEST as different than those in the USSR and the Eastern block...but as the cold war fades they are lessons that we, as a people, are forgetting and tossing aside.

[Guest MormonGator]

7 hours ago, NightSG said:

Congratulations.  You've earned it.

 

@NightSG, I think we are about the same age (mid to late 30's)-don't you remember making fun of participation trophies and ribbons when you got them? I remember saying with my friends "Why did we get this? We came in 8th out 7 teams!" 

[Vort]

<Insert Vortian rant about the evils and inherently ungodly nature of interpersonal competition>

[NightSG]

6 hours ago, MormonGator said:

@NightSG, I think we are about the same age (mid to late 30's)-don't you remember making fun of participation trophies and ribbons when you got them? I remember saying with my friends "Why did we get this? We came in 8th out 7 teams!" 

I'm 41, and I'm sure there's a box of them somewhere in storage, where I pretty much tossed them in the box as I got them.  Didn't want them in view, detracting from some actual performance-based awards.

[NightSG]

5 hours ago, Vort said:

<Insert Vortian rant about the evils and inherently ungodly nature of interpersonal competition>

<Insert condescending post about the evils and inherently ungodly nature of jealousy and the self-righteous inclination to justify it by denigrating competition>

Losing doesn't mean the competition is evil, just that you need to get off your butt and try harder.

[Vort]

36 minutes ago, NightSG said:

<Insert condescending post about the evils and inherently ungodly nature of jealousy and the self-righteous inclination to justify it by denigrating competition>

Losing doesn't mean the competition is evil, just that you need to get off your butt and try harder.

Condescension noted. And once again, your inferences are getting the better of you.

[Fether]

@JohnsonJones

But let’s be honest... how many of the winter Olympic sports are promoted and as easily accessible to us as summer Olympic sports. I don’t even know where I would go if I wanted to curl... not sure how I would even go about doing bobsledding. The only ones I can think of right now are skiing and snowboarding. 

Summer on the other hand! Volleyball, running, track, basketball, swimming... all the events (save that water dancing thing) or the summer olympics I can go out right now and feasibly participate in. We shine there more than any other country. I haven’t met a single person in my life that participated in any of the winter Olympic sports (except snow boarding and skiiing). Contrarily I have met people that participate in every summer game (except of course that water dancing thing).

I don’t think you can connect success and failure at the Winter Olympics to how we raise our children.

Edited February 26, 2018 by Fether

[JohnsonJones]

7 hours ago, Fether said:

@JohnsonJones

But let’s be honest... how many of the winter Olympic sports are promoted and as easily accessible to us as summer Olympic sports. I don’t even know where I would go if I wanted to curl... not sure how I would even go about doing bobsledding. The only ones I can think of right now are skiing and snowboarding. 

Summer on the other hand! Volleyball, running, track, basketball, swimming... all the events (save that water dancing thing) or the summer olympics I can go out right now and feasibly participate in. We shine there more than any other country. I haven’t met a single person in my life that participated in any of the winter Olympic sports (except snow boarding and skiiing). Contrarily I have met people that participate in every summer game (except of course that water dancing thing).

I don’t think you can connect success and failure at the Winter Olympics to how we raise our children.

Ice skating is relatively plausible in many of the larger cities, even in the Southern US these days.  Hockey is very popular up North, though is slowly growing elsewhere (most normally in areas which have hockey teams and thus an ice arena available).   Ice Skating is available in many of the cities which also have an ice rink...and the average prices seem to be around 80 to 100 dollars for a series of lessons.  I suppose that may be more expensive then swimming lessons, but comparative to some of the more popular summer sports such as Gymnastics. 

Skiing makes up a LOT of the winter sports though, and cross country skiing may be cheaper than almost any of the rest of the sports.  If you discount areas that do not have a large winter sports following though, and only include the states that do (so Idaho, Utah, Wyoming, Montana, North and South Dakota, Michigan, Minnesota, Wisconsin, Vermont, New Hampshire, and Maine) you have a much smaller population, but at around 26 million still outnumbers Norway's population by almost 5 to 1.  This of course ignores the growing in size (but unpopular compared to the states I listed) hockey leagues, ice skating groups, and other arenas that are popping up in the big cities (which can afford the ice rinks and other accessories) in the rest of the US.

The US has also done VERY well in the winter Olympics traditionally.  Norway with it's population size and economy, however, does surprisingly well comparatively...

Almost all winter sports are cheaper than Equestrian sports, Pentathalon or Sailing.  Some of the cheaper sports the US is not too great at, such as Badminton, cycling road, or Football (known as soccer in the US).  It isn't so much accessibility at times or even necessarily money...though the US TENDS to do better in the sports where it requires more money to be a part of.

There are MORE sports in the summer Olympics and many of them ARE more popular in the US (and more accessible in many instances). 

Norway also does NOT do as well in the summer Olympics as it does in the winter Olympics comparatively. 

I do like the Norwegian spirit and it reminds me strongly of the type of attitudes we had prior to the 1990s in regards to athletics and sports.  It is more about getting people excited and participating in community activities (ala sports, which in the US also used to be something which got the community of families together...it still is to a degree, but with a tad more competitive spirit tossed in rather than simply enjoying the event and the kids) when the children are young enough to be impressionable to learn to love different activities.

Of course, the other side of the coin is that AFTER they hit their teenage years, Norwegians are VERY competitive.  The value teamwork, but no one wants to be the weak link of the team and so they work very hard together to form bonds and to win. 

Some may say that this played an even greater part of Norway's success this Olympics...that unlike the US that seemed to come to make a political statement in some of it's sports at times...Norway came to compete.

[Fether]

@JohnsonJones

Regardless of numbers. The sports we participate in the most are the ones we kick butt at.

Oh, and it’s bad to start pointing fingers at the younger generation... it was your generation that raised them

Edited February 26, 2018 by Fether

[Guest MormonGator]

Just now, Fether said:

@JohnsonJones

well regardless, it’s bad to start pointing fingers at the younger generation... it was your generation that raised them

I never understood that either-if the next generation is as bad as the say, then clearly the generation that raised them deserves some of the blame. 

[anatess2]

On 2/25/2018 at 2:55 AM, JohnsonJones said:

 In many games, they did not keep score.

Children were more active, obesity was not that common among them, and sports was something that EVERYONE could enjoy.

Holy jump the shark correlation, batman!

I guess if you have a narrative you want to promote, you make the facts fit the narrative even if you have to fit Arnold Schwarzenegger into a girdle.

Edited February 26, 2018 by anatess2

[JohnsonJones]

6 hours ago, Fether said:

@JohnsonJones

Regardless of numbers. The sports we participate in the most are the ones we kick butt at.

Oh, and it’s bad to start pointing fingers at the younger generation... it was your generation that raised them

True. 

It's more of I raised the generation that raised the current younger generation, but, you are right.  I believe I'd be part of the Boomer generation, but there were many things that we started to do wrong (fragmentation of the family to a greater degree, the Hippie silliness, the drug culture, expansion of sinful hobbies as an acceptable in the world...etc...etc...etc).  You can see the roots of many of the ills today starting with my generation.  Our children just took our mistakes and ran with them to a greater degree.

Many of the same arguments that we talk about with the younger generations today were also leveled at my generation when I was growing up.  It may be my perception, but I DO think that these complaints get more and more valid each oncoming generation, as the things that we disagree with today are the similar, but in some ways so much worse (for example, when I was young there were many that were trying to teach the free love ideas, but overall, it was still seen as immoral for people to fornicate, and even worse to live together prior to marriage.  If a young lady got pregnant out of wedlock...that was still a scandal.  Today...these things seem almost expected in relationships outside the LDS church, and Gay Marriage is a thing whereas it wasn't really even dreamed of when I was a kid...at least as far as I knew).

That said, yes, my generation IS responsible for many of the problems that are plaguing us today.  Even those in my generation have many who promote these new degenerate lifestyles of sin (I think my generation is currently the ones with the highest incident of STD's occurring among us...not a problem if one practices the Law of Chastity, but it seems even among many of the older folks, this idea has gone by the wayside).   I think, as some have pointed out in other threads, that the biggest thing tearing down the fabric of America (that would be North America, so the US, Canada, and even Mexico) is the dissolution and fragmentation of the Family.

It was under my generation that Divorce started to gain traction, and in some ways one could point to this trend that started all other trends that lead to the destruction of the family to such a degree that we can see the effects today.

So, true.

I can accept blame on this to a degree. 

I would point out though, that as we believe in free agency, not ALL blame can be placed on the parents heads.  Lehi also had those rebellious children and he was a prophet!

[Traveler]

 

It is interesting how we define things.  Long ago when I was young and thought competition was important – it was not team sports.  When we divided up to play I was the last chosen.  I am living proof that being a winner in the popular team sports are not necessary to be happy in life.

I have competed in non-team sports.  Cycling and skiing.  I do have a bronze medal for both – competing oh so long ago, as an amateur.   I was given an opportunity to try out for the US Olympic ski team but decided to do other things with my life.  But I have learned some things from my experiences.

 There is a reason Norway is good at winter sports.  It is the same reason that during my limited competition skiing I was never beaten by someone that grew up in Florida loving the ocean.  This may come as a shock to some – but Norway and Utah have never produced an Olympic swimmer or any importance.   I honestly do not think it is because of the ribbons or trophies given out in those sports.  Grief, I do believe reporters now days will make an issue out of anything – regardless of facts or what they know of it.

Another thing I have learned about life is that there is a world of difference between a coach and a teacher or professor.   For those of you that do not know – a coach is invested in their student.  The goal of a coach is not a grade – it is to prepare you to win at competition.  Some people will never realize the difference.  I could provide thousands of examples but I will use just one.  When I was a scout master – I believed that when we went to district campouts that we should win the competitions.  So, I prepared my scouts to win.  Our best event was fire building.  The rules required that the scouts build a fire without matches and then build the fire to burn a string 2 feet off the ground.   I designed a giant bow and stick that required 6 scouts working together.  But they could start a fire and burn the string in 15 seconds.  Our closest competition ever was just under 3 minutes.   We always won and my scouts loved it – so did most other scout troops.  And the boys loved showing other scouts how to quickly build a fire.  But there were some scout troops that complained and demanded our boys be disqualified.   What I do not understand is that no one else ever build a giant bow and stick to compete with us.  I guess they had their way of doing things and anything outside their concept was unacceptable. 

There is a bicycle event called the Lotoja.  It is about 225-mile race from Logan Utah to Jackson Hole Wyoming.  It is not just a distance race but a few mountain summits to climb.   The fastest up one particular Mountain receives “The King of the Mountain” award which is as prestigious as winning the race – no one has ever won both.   This is one event that everyone that finishes within the 16-hour limit gets an award.  No one complains about this award because a lot of individuals that start are never able to finish.  I have used the Lotoja as an example of enduring to the end.  No one decides the day of to run this race will finish without training for it.  Part of training is preparation and part of preparation is training for the distance.  It is not just a matter of not giving up.  It is being in shape to ride the 225 miles.  It is knowing how to and training yourself to eat properly.  It is more than just knowing how to ride a bicycle.  It is being prepared both mentally and physically for the distance.

 

The Traveler

[lostinwater]

4 hours ago, JohnsonJones said:

I can accept blame on this to a degree. 

i wouldn't commit harakiri on yourself with the younger generation quite yet.  

Regardless, the world's a better place for almost every boomer being here.  After all, you are the only one here that appreciates John Wayne as much as my dad does - so this must mean you are a great person  .

[NightSG]

12 hours ago, Traveler said:

No one decides the day of to run this race will finish without training for it.

So bike touring 1300 miles to the starting line and deciding that morning whether I feel like trying it on a loaded touring hybrid is probably not a recipe for success?

[Traveler]

4 hours ago, NightSG said:

So bike touring 1300 miles to the starting line and deciding that morning whether I feel like trying it on a loaded touring hybrid is probably not a recipe for success?

 

I once took our 14 to 18 year old young men on a one week 500 mile bicycle trip – with swag wagon (trailer) so they only had to peddle themselves.  We trained for 6 months but only one young man made it without resting through some segments on the swag.  Some of my young men were active in sports and thought they were already in top shape – They did not make it through the first day without resting with the swag.

I have never done the hybrid pack it thing – that must be scary off the charts on a 10% decline and a real bummer up hill into a strong wind.

BTW I ride a black, red and white Trek Madone that is worth more than my car.

 

The Traveler

[Guest MormonGator]

8 minutes ago, Traveler said:

I once took our 14 to 18 year old young men on a one week 500 mile bicycle trip

Anyone who can bike that much-you or @NightSG deserves huge respect. Wow! 

[anatess2]

15 minutes ago, Traveler said:

 

I once took our 14 to 18 year old young men on a one week 500 mile bicycle trip – with swag wagon (trailer) so they only had to peddle themselves.  We trained for 6 months but only one young man made it without resting through some segments on the swag.  Some of my young men were active in sports and thought they were already in top shape – They did not make it through the first day without resting with the swag.

I have never done the hybrid pack it thing – that must be scary off the charts on a 10% decline and a real bummer up hill into a strong wind.

BTW I ride a black, red and white Trek Madone that is worth more than my car.

 

The Traveler

Ours did 120 miles in 3 days.  Florida... so... flat riding.  Unfortunately, it rained all 3 days so they rode in it.  My boy is in really great shape (competitive jiujitsu fighter) but he was one of the boys struggling to finish.  Cycling takes different muscles than jiujitsu.  What got him through was just plain grit and a refusal to give up.  Just like jiujitsu - it was not a competition between him and the other cyclists.  Rather, he was in a competition against himself.  That's what jiujitsu is - the other guy is just the road/rain/wind.  Who you're competing with is - yourself.

Edited February 27, 2018 by anatess2

[Traveler]

10 minutes ago, anatess2 said:

Ours did 120 miles in 3 days.  Florida... so... flat riding.  Unfortunately, it rained all 3 days so they rode in it.  My boy is in really great shape (competitive jiujitsu fighter) but he was one of the boys struggling to finish.  Cycling takes different muscles than jiujitsu.  What got him through was just plain grit and a refusal to give up.

 

Good for your boys – I sure they learned a lot from the ride.  That is the kind of thing they deserve a ribbon for participating.  But Florida?  I think I would rather ride there in the rain than in the bright sun. 

BTW my wife struggles with the winters here in Utah – She lived in Florida growing up and would love to move back – but I would die in the heat.  Lucky for me most of our families are here in Utah – where we finely got some decent snow.  Yesterday and the top of the ski resort it was about 10 degrees F but the wind was off the charts making the wind chill about -30 – but it is hard to tell with snow blowing in your face.  I love the cold.  My wife hates it – but she loves me and her kids so (at least for now) we get to live in Utah with the greatest snow on earth.

 

The Traveler

[anatess2]

17 hours ago, Traveler said:

 

Another thing I have learned about life is that there is a world of difference between a coach and a teacher or professor.  

The Traveler

This is so true!  There's such a big difference between the discipline of a coach than a teacher/professor.  I find it weird moving to the US and seeing how they run their competitive soccer leagues.  That's for sure not the way to qualify for World Cup.  They spend like 30 minutes on drills and then they play a tournament.  There's no way!

True coaching is you start from the basic building block - you train in that until you get very very proficient at it.  Then you go on to the next building block.  You add more skills as you get more proficient until eventually you get all the skills to play the sport as as a team.  So... you could spend 5 years doing nothing but footwork and ball handling before you get good enough to join the team and play a tournament.

Like - why are there so many Olympic-level Romanian gymnasts?  Because Romanian gymnastic coaches teach line-upon-line precept-upon-precept building on the elements of gymnastics until proficiency is achieved before they get sent to competition.  They could be "playing gymnastics" for 10 years before they get good enough to be given the option of joining competitive gymnastics.  This is the same with Russian ballet/dance or Serbian tennis.  They don't just shove you into competition when you have zero skills.

[anatess2]

5 minutes ago, Traveler said:

 

Good for your boys – I sure they learned a lot from the ride.  That is the kind of thing they deserve a ribbon for participating.  But Florida?  I think I would rather ride there in the rain than in the bright sun. 

BTW my wife struggles with the winters here in Utah – She lived in Florida growing up and would love to move back – but I would die in the heat.  Lucky for me most of our families are here in Utah – where we finely got some decent snow.  Yesterday and the top of the ski resort it was about 10 degrees F but the wind was off the charts making the wind chill about -30 – but it is hard to tell with snow blowing in your face.  I love the cold.  My wife hates it – but she loves me and her kids so (at least for now) we get to live in Utah with the greatest snow on earth.

 

The Traveler

We love the SUN!  And the heat.  We had a fireside at the beach over the weekend because it was 80 degrees inland so we needed the ocean breeze to be able to sit next to a fire comfortably.

[JohnsonJones]

1 hour ago, anatess2 said:

This is so true!  There's such a big difference between the discipline of a coach than a teacher/professor.  I find it weird moving to the US and seeing how they run their competitive soccer leagues.  That's for sure not the way to qualify for World Cup.  They spend like 30 minutes on drills and then they play a tournament.  There's no way!

True coaching is you start from the basic building block - you train in that until you get very very proficient at it.  Then you go on to the next building block.  You add more skills as you get more proficient until eventually you get all the skills to play the sport as as a team.  So... you could spend 5 years doing nothing but footwork and ball handling before you get good enough to join the team and play a tournament.

Like - why are there so many Olympic-level Romanian gymnasts?  Because Romanian gymnastic coaches teach line-upon-line precept-upon-precept building on the elements of gymnastics until proficiency is achieved before they get sent to competition.  They could be "playing gymnastics" for 10 years before they get good enough to be given the option of joining competitive gymnastics.  This is the same with Russian ballet/dance or Serbian tennis.  They don't just shove you into competition when you have zero skills.

I actually agree with your comment...but I did want to toss a little item in there...

The US Women's team actually has won the World cup 3 times, including, I believe, the most recent one.  They've alsocurrently won the most women's world cups followed by Germany and then Norway and Japan.

[anatess2]

1 minute ago, JohnsonJones said:

I actually agree with your comment...but I did want to toss a little item in there...

The US Women's team actually has won the World cup 3 times, including, I believe, the most recent one.  They've alsocurrently won the most women's world cups followed by Germany and then Norway and Japan.

And the only reason why that is, is because soccer all over the world is a Men's sport.  The Women Side of soccer did not become a thing until recently and the US was one of the front-runners.  So good women players worldwide flocked to US colleges to play as their own countries are not spending much money on their women side.  But the rest of the world is catching up and the gap is closing as the rest of the world's women sides start to spit out their players who have been training in the way of proper development that takes a lot of time to produce to form their national teams instead of jumping ship to play for US colleges.