Are animals damned?

[Guest MormonGator]

@wenglund-I know a dead parrot when I see one. 

[The Folk Prophet]

We'll try some Joseph F Smith:

We shall stand before the bar of God to be judged. So says the Bible, so says the Book of Mormon, and so say the revelations which have come direct to us through the Prophet Joseph Smith. And then those who have not been subject and obedient to the celestial law will not be quickened by the celestial glory. And those who have not been subject and obedient to the terrestrial law will not be quickened by the terrestrial glory. And those who have not been subject and obedient to the telestial law, will not be quickened by a telestial glory; but they will have a kingdom without glory.

All the bodies that lie in the graves are called forth; not all at the first resurrection, nor in the morning of the first resurrection, but some perhaps in the last resurrection; and every soul will be required to go before the bar of God and be judged according to the deeds done in the body. If his works have been good, then he receives the reward of well doing; if [they have] been evil, then he will be banished from the presence of the Lord.

We live, then; we do not die; we do not anticipate death but we anticipate life, immortality, glory, exaltation, and to be quickened by the glory of the celestial kingdom, and receive of the same even a fulness. This is our destiny; this is the exalted position to which we may attain and there is no power that can deprive or rob us of it, if we prove faithful and true to the covenant of the gospel.

The object of our earthly existence is that we may have a fulness of joy, and that we may become the sons and daughters of God, in the fullest sense of the word, being heirs of God and joint heirs with Jesus Christ, to be kings and priests unto God, to inherit glory, dominion, exaltation, thrones and every power and attribute developed and possessed by our Heavenly Father. This is the object of our being on this earth. In order to attain unto this exalted position, it is necessary that we go through this mortal experience, or probation, by which we may prove ourselves worthy, through the aid of our elder brother Jesus.18

Men can only be saved and exalted in the kingdom of God in righteousness, therefore we must repent of our sins, and walk in the light as Christ is in the light, that his blood may cleanse us from all sins, and that we may have fellowship with God and receive of his glory and exaltation.

 

God did speak to His servant Joseph Smith, and did reveal Himself unto him; not only the Father, but the Son also. They did reveal themselves unto him, and they gave him commandments and their law, their Gospel and their plan of life eternal. … This plan contemplated not only salvation from sin and from the effects of sin here and hereafter, but exaltation, glory, power and dominion, that will come to the children of God through their obedience to the laws and principles of the gospel.

 

The principles of the gospel which the Lord has revealed in these days will lead us to eternal life. This is what we are after, what we were created for, what the earth was created for. The reason that we are here is that we may overcome every folly and prepare ourselves for eternal life in the future.

 

No other name, under heaven, is given, but that of Jesus Christ, by which you can be saved or exalted in the Kingdom of God.

The man who passes through this probation, and is faithful, being redeemed from sin by the blood of Christ, through the ordinances of the gospel, and attains to exaltation in the kingdom of God, is not less but greater than the angels.

We have entered into the bond of that new and everlasting covenant agreeing that we would obey the commandments of God in all things whatsoever he shall command us. This is an everlasting covenant even unto the end of our days. … We shall never see the day in time nor in eternity, when it will not be obligatory, and when it will not be a pleasure as well as a duty for us, as his children, to obey all the commandments of the Lord throughout the endless ages of eternity. It is upon this principle that we keep in touch with God, and remain in harmony with his purposes. It is only in this way that we can consummate our mission, and obtain our crown and the gift of eternal lives, which is the greatest gift of God. Can you imagine any other way?

here is no salvation but in the way God has pointed out. There is no hope of everlasting life but through obedience to the law that has been affixed by the Father of life, “with whom there is no variableness, neither shadow of turning” [James 1:17]; and there is no other way by which we may obtain that light and exaltation. 

 

 

Let us work out our salvation in fear and trembling before our Father, and be faithful to the end. Remember that you have enlisted in this work for time and for all eternity. There is no backing out of it, no falling away from it, except in sin, and then comes the penalty of transgression. But if you expect exaltation; if you expect fathers and mothers, brothers and sisters, kindred and friends; if you expect glory, intelligence and endless lives, you must get them in God’s work; for nowhere outside can you get them. Therefore, let every sympathy and interest be centered in this cause. Let all your love go out toward this cause, and this alone. Let the world go.

Edited March 30, 2018 by The Folk Prophet

[The Folk Prophet]

and Joseph F. Smith cont:

It has sometimes been sorrowful to see respected members of the Church, men who should know better, allow themselves to become the tools of seductive spirits. … It seems difficult for men to comprehend the workings of the Priesthood, its legitimate authority, its scope and power; and yet by the light of the Spirit it is easily comprehended, but not understanding it, men are easily deceived by seductive spirits that are abroad in the world. They are led to believe that something is wrong, and the next thing that transpires, they find themselves believing that they are chosen specially to set things right. It is very unfortunate for a man to be taken in this snare; for be it understood by the Latter-day Saints that as long as the servants of God are living pure lives, are honoring the Priesthood conferred upon them, and endeavoring to the best of their knowledge to magnify their offices and callings, to which they have been duly chosen by the voice of the people and the priesthood, and sanctioned by the approval of God, so long as the Lord has any communication to make to the children of men, or any instructions to impart to his Church, he will make such communication through the legally appointed channel of the priesthood; he will never go outside of it, as long, at least, as the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints exists in its present form on the earth.

It is not the business of any individual to rise up as a revelator, as a prophet, as a seer, as an inspired man, to give revelation for the guidance of the Church, or to assume to dictate to the presiding authorities of the Church in any part of the world, much less in the midst of Zion, where the organizations of the priesthood are about perfect, where everything is complete, even to the organization of a branch.

In secular as well as spiritual affairs, Saints may receive Divine guidance and revelation affecting themselves, but this does not convey authority to direct others, and is not to be accepted when contrary to Church covenants, doctrine or discipline, or to known facts, demonstrated truths, or good common sense. No person has the right to induce his fellow members of the Church to engage in speculations or take stock in ventures of any kind on the specious [deceptive] claim of Divine revelation or vision or dream, especially when it is in opposition to the voice of recognized authority, local or general. The Lord’s Church “is a house of order” [D&C 132:8]. It is not governed by individual gifts or manifestations, but by the order and power of the Holy Priesthood as sustained by the voice and vote of the Church in its appointed conferences.

[Guest]

14 minutes ago, MormonGator said:

@wenglund-I know a dead parrot when I see one. 

NOOOO!!!  YOU DIDN'T HAVE TO DO THAT!!!  BUT YOU'VE MADE ME DO THIS!!!

 

[Guest MormonGator]

He's a lumberjack and he's okay....

[The Folk Prophet]

Joseph Fielding Smith:

The Scriptures say that eternal life—which is the life possessed by our Eternal Father and his Son, Jesus Christ,—is the greatest gift of God [see D&C 14:7]. Only those shall receive it who are cleansed from all sin. It is promised to those “who overcome by faith, and are sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise, which the Father sheds forth upon all those who are just and true. They are they who are the church of the Firstborn. They are they into whose hands the Father has given all things.” [D&C 76:53–55; see also verse 52.]27

This plan of salvation is family centered. … [It] is designed to enable us to create eternal family units of our own.28

Those who receive the exaltation in the celestial kingdom will have the “continuation of the seeds forever.” They will live in the family relationship.

 

When we have come out of the world and have received the gospel in its fulness, we are candidates for celestial glory; nay, we are more than candidates, if we are faithful, for the Lord has given unto us the assurance that through our faithfulness, we shall enter into the celestial kingdom. …

… Let us live so that we will be assured of our place, and so we will know, through the lives we live, that we shall enter into His presence and dwell with Him, receiving the fulness of the blessings that have been promised. Who among the Latter-day Saints will be content with anything short of the fulness of salvation which is promised us? … It is necessary for us, in our humility, and in the spirit of repentance, to press on and on; keeping the commandments unto the end, for our hope and our goal is eternal life, and that is life in the presence of the Father and of the Son; “And this is life eternal,” said the Lord,” that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom thou hast sent.” 

 

The Latter-day Saints should put their trust in their leaders, and follow the teachings of the authorities of the Church, for they speak unto them with the voice of prophecy and inspiration. The Lord has declared in the very first section in the Doctrine and Covenants, that whether he speak by his own voice or through the voice of his servants, it is the same [see D&C 1:38]. Therefore, we are under just as great responsibility and obligation to hearken unto the voice of the one who stands at the head to teach the people, or to listen unto the voice of the elders of Israel, as they carry among the people the message of truth, as we are [if] the Lord should send from his presence an angel or should come himself to declare these things unto us.

Edited March 30, 2018 by The Folk Prophet

[SpiritDragon]

53 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

This earth right now is the telestial kingdom. At the beginning of the millenium it will increase in glory to the Terrestrial kingdom and then finally at the end of the thousand years God will come in his glory and the earth will attain its celedtial glory. All of the saved will then dwell in celestial glory.

Ok, that's what it sounded like you were saying. Now that that is clear, do you believe in differing glories of resurrected bodies, or are all the same?

[Guest]

47 minutes ago, MormonGator said:

He's a lumberjack and he's okay....

SMH...

[The Folk Prophet]

7 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

SMH...

Shave my head?

[Guest MormonGator]

8 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

SMH...

  I used to quote Monty Python a lot in high school. Usually it was in-between dodging spitballs and slaps to the head. The sad part is that most of the spitballs were from the teachers. 

[Rob Osborn]

1 hour ago, anatess2 said:

Hmm... I'm not a doctor or anywhere close to a clinical psychologist and I'm just this random gal on the internet so what I say have zero credibility.  I think it is very possible that you're on the spectrum with a savant skill on religious principles.

You know, like Rainman is a numbers savant so he can tell you how many toothpicks are on the floor or how many face cards are in a deck and he does some wow-tastic mathematical computations.  But at the same time he misses relational connections that give numbers certain relational meaning kinda thing?

Anyway, this is just a side thought and may just add noise to this conversation.  So yeah, you can ignore it at your leisure. 

 

I can see where you are coming from. I dont really see myself like that. Im more of the type that likes to see the bigger picture all at once, or from a different angle. I hope everyone else is like that too or wants to be like that.

Your analogy only works if I truly cant see the bigger picture. You guys assume I just cant see that big picture you guys are seeing. Im on the opposite side of thinking wondering why you really cant see the bigger picture. So, Im actually the opposite to what you describe as I can see the bigger picture and then from there I break down each principle into its smallest point to establish truth. Most of these little details like proper definitions come from a top down big picture view in my mind. Its kind of knowing the end from the beginning I guess and making it all fit into a logical paradigm. There are so many layers that one builds off. In my research my work on damnation alone is about 15 pages as it fleshes out, using every scripture available to support its correct usage. I could flesh out a basic doctrinal outline of the plan of salvation but in order to do so would fill 10 pages alone because one must understand language semantics in the scriptures and without that knowledge it doesnt really make sense. As you can see, we are debating the proper use of a few words and we arent really any further along. I find it truly amazing then, after so many years, decades, that LDS in general dont really understand Gods true and yet simple plan of salvation. Its a perfect case of not seeing the forest because of the trees in the way.

Without even bringing up any part of the three glories I could flesh out the plan of salvation as taught in the Book of Mormon and New Testament and it would forever change the way you view salvation. But, in so doing you would have a more pure knowledge.

[lostinwater]

25 minutes ago, MormonGator said:

  I used to quote Monty Python a lot in high school. Usually it was in-between dodging spitballs and slaps to the head. The sad part is that most of the spitballs were from the teachers. 

It's very interesting to read how most of the greats of our age have been viewed in the public school system.  Not very well.  Pretty much every single one of them.  Sounds like these teachers were just ignorantly confirming what everyone here knows - that you are one COOL gator!   

[Guest MormonGator]

Just now, lostinwater said:

It's very interesting to read how most of the greats of our age have been viewed in the public school system.  Not very well.  Pretty much every single one of them.  Sounds like these teachers were just ignorantly confirming what everyone here knows - that you are one COOL gator!   

Very sweet of you to say, thanks @lostinwater. 

And I went to a private school, for the record. 

[Rob Osborn]

1 hour ago, SpiritDragon said:

Ok, that's what it sounded like you were saying. Now that that is clear, do you believe in differing glories of resurrected bodies, or are all the same?

Yes, I believe that in resurrection we are resurrected with different glories. But, I should expound, that I view the resurrection as already taking place and it continuing through the terrestrial and up to the celestial. So, in general, a person who has already been resurrected were done so according to a telestial glory. Then, they may be quickened to a terrestrial glory at Christs coming and then quickened from there to celestial at the coming of the Fathers kingdom at the end of the millennium.

[lostinwater]

2 minutes ago, MormonGator said:

Very sweet of you to say, thanks @lostinwater. 

And I went to a private school, for the record. 

That makes the point even more true!  i've known several people who have had horrible experiences with private schools.  

[Rob Osborn]

1 hour ago, The Folk Prophet said:

Joseph Fielding Smith:

The Scriptures say that eternal life—which is the life possessed by our Eternal Father and his Son, Jesus Christ,—is the greatest gift of God [see D&C 14:7]. Only those shall receive it who are cleansed from all sin. It is promised to those “who overcome by faith, and are sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise, which the Father sheds forth upon all those who are just and true. They are they who are the church of the Firstborn. They are they into whose hands the Father has given all things.” [D&C 76:53–55; see also verse 52.]27

This plan of salvation is family centered. … [It] is designed to enable us to create eternal family units of our own.28

Those who receive the exaltation in the celestial kingdom will have the “continuation of the seeds forever.” They will live in the family relationship.

 

When we have come out of the world and have received the gospel in its fulness, we are candidates for celestial glory; nay, we are more than candidates, if we are faithful, for the Lord has given unto us the assurance that through our faithfulness, we shall enter into the celestial kingdom. …

… Let us live so that we will be assured of our place, and so we will know, through the lives we live, that we shall enter into His presence and dwell with Him, receiving the fulness of the blessings that have been promised. Who among the Latter-day Saints will be content with anything short of the fulness of salvation which is promised us? … It is necessary for us, in our humility, and in the spirit of repentance, to press on and on; keeping the commandments unto the end, for our hope and our goal is eternal life, and that is life in the presence of the Father and of the Son; “And this is life eternal,” said the Lord,” that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom thou hast sent.” 

 

The Latter-day Saints should put their trust in their leaders, and follow the teachings of the authorities of the Church, for they speak unto them with the voice of prophecy and inspiration. The Lord has declared in the very first section in the Doctrine and Covenants, that whether he speak by his own voice or through the voice of his servants, it is the same [see D&C 1:38]. Therefore, we are under just as great responsibility and obligation to hearken unto the voice of the one who stands at the head to teach the people, or to listen unto the voice of the elders of Israel, as they carry among the people the message of truth, as we are [if] the Lord should send from his presence an angel or should come himself to declare these things unto us.

I generally agree. A few points though-

Eternal life is granted to all of the saved- being saved is "the greatest gift" as without that gift we are forever shut out from the Lord. That is why, as you may not know, that salvation is also the greatest gift-

13 If thou wilt do good, yea, and hold out faithful to the end, thou shalt be saved in the kingdom of God, which is the greatest of all the gifts of God; for there is no gift greater than the gift of salvation. (D&C 6:13)

People often conflate exaltation in the highest degree and the "greatest gift", as spoken in scripture. Just a basic semantic issue but the greatest gift is what the power of Christs atonement does for us which carries us over the gulf of misery and woe, thats the greatest gift. Salvation from hell is the greatest gift. Eternal life is more synonymous here as all who reap salvation go into eternal life.

[askandanswer]

7 hours ago, Carborendum said:

I haven't really been following this thread.  But I'm just curious.  In the last 15 pages or so, has anyone actually answered the OP's question?

I remember reading a particularly brilliant and insightful answer to this question, let me just check to see if I can find it again. Ahh yes, here it is:

On 3/16/2018 at 2:09 PM, askandanswer said:

Back to the original question of whether animals are damned.....

IMO, I think that a dog who attacks a child without provocation is acting against an innate sense of right and wrong, and is likely to have a less enjoyable experience in the afterlife than a dog who sacrifices itself to save someone. I'd also like to think that guide dogs and companion animals who give up their whole life in the service of a person have a more enjoyable experience in the afterlife than just your average dog. 

This scripture might offer a clue but possibly doesn't provide an answer

Isaiah 11:6  The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them.
 

The short answer to the question of whether animals are damned is that the damned ones are (or more correctly, will be) and the undamned ones are not (or more correctly, won't be). I don't think anything further needs to be said

[askandanswer]

Its only a tangent, but there is at least one example of differentiation between animals based on cleaness and uncleaness resulting in the clean animals receiving a better outcome than the unclean animals: Its not the same as being damned or not damned but it could be a clue.

(Old Testament | Genesis 7:2)
2  Of every clean beast thou shalt take to thee by sevens, the male and his female: and of beasts that are not clean by two, the male and his female.
 

[The Folk Prophet]

50 minutes ago, askandanswer said:

Its only a tangent, but there is at least one example of differentiation between animals based on cleaness and uncleaness resulting in the clean animals receiving a better outcome than the unclean animals: Its not the same as being damned or not damned but it could be a clue.

(Old Testament | Genesis 7:2)
2  Of every clean beast thou shalt take to thee by sevens, the male and his female: and of beasts that are not clean by two, the male and his female.
 

That's because they ate the clean animals.

[zil]

Exactly - prey, predator situation.  Must keep the balance.

Meanwhile, come the millennium, the lion will eat straw like the ox, and we wont' be eating animals, so I think it's not a condemnation of predatory / carnivorous animals.

I responded to this early on and stand by that response - animals have a law.  I believe they know their law(s).  I believe they have the ability to obey or disobey their law.  Thus, variable results.  Further, I believe the basic definition of exaltation is to have "a continuation of seed" - "eternal lives".  I believe at least some animals will have this, thus, not damned.  I could be drawing unwarranted conclusions from what little we have on the subject, but that's the beginning and ending of my thoughts.

[Guest]

1 hour ago, zil said:

Meanwhile, come the millennium, the lion will eat straw like the ox, and we wont' be eating animals,

Tangent alert:

Do you really believe that is so?  I'm not certain whether the lamb/lion/ox thing will be literal or not.  Maybe.  I dunno.  But we will become vegans?  I don't know if I've heard that before.

And supposedly, animal sacrifice is to return (I'm not sure if that is so either).  What do we do with the carcasses?

[zil]

I suppose it could all be "figurative" somehow -but I'm having a hard time imagining what it's supposed to be figurative of:

https://www.lds.org/scriptures/search?lang=eng&query=lion+straw&x=0&y=0

https://www.lds.org/scriptures/search?lang=eng&options=verse&options=highlight&options=text&type=word&query=hurt+nor+destroy

The alternative would be that they won't be all cuddly and lions will prey as always, or say, "Hello, Mr. Lamb, I'm hungry, would you consent to be my dinner?  I promise to kill you quickly."

I imagine the meat from animal sacrifice will be handled as required in the OT.  I have a hard time believing this would be a regular or frequent thing.

[Guest]

23 hours ago, wenglund said:

...so says the Black Knight to King Arthur on the bridge

Yeah, I think it's a draw.

[CrimsonTide]

On 3/12/2018 at 7:24 PM, EricM said:

I've been reflecting upon the plan of salvation and how, as part of this, animals will be taking part in the resurrection. As we know, for mankind, there will be resurrection unto eternal life, and resurrection unto damnation. Salvation unto eternal life means eternal progression and an eternal increase. Damnation in this context will mean limited progression due to not attaining the highest degree of glory. Animals, on the other hand, seem to be locked into where they are as far as I can tell. Wouldn't this be damnation? 

Some additional thoughts I have on the topic are the idea that resurrection for animals seems troubling. As you recall, when Adam and Eve were cast out of the Garden of Eden, cherubim and a flaming sword were placed before the Tree of Life lest Adam and Eve partake of its fruit and "live forever in their sins." Again, this sounds akin to resurrection unto damnation, but would be immortality unto damnation. So would resurrecting a lower level of intelligence stop its progression? When humans were only intelligences, were we still different from animals, or are animals part of the progression? 

Lastly, I feel that one piece of the puzzle could be related to the beasts in the revelation of John. We learn in D&C that these beasts are not merely symbolic, but actual animals. Do animals maybe have a different path of progression than humans do, serving different roles in the kingdom than man? (Which wouldn't be far-fetched, considering that is the case in mortality.)

I'm interested in your ideas and experience on this subject!

-deleted-

Edited April 10, 2018 by CrimsonTide

[wenglund]

11 hours ago, CrimsonTide said:

Christianity is a anthropocentric religion, but this assumption sprang from men,  

While Christianity is actually Christ-centered, I think I understand what you mean. The gospel is exclusively directed towards humans.

\However, to me, this isn't a human assumption, but a divine revelation--no other animal is made in the image and likeness of God.

Besides, the gospel couldn't be animal-centric or plant centric, since neither has the level of consciousness to be much aware of self and being, etc. let alone basic principles like faith, repentance, baptism, and the Gift of the Holy Ghost.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-