We Are In The Telestial Kingdom Now, Proof By Contradiction

[person0]

4 minutes ago, estradling75 said:

That is a possibility.. but like you I wonder how much extra time/effort is needed to offset having eternity to do it in.

Yeah I have no idea.  On a similar note In a hypothetical scenario where one of the spirits who followed Lucifer is told that if they choose to they could begin a very long process of repentance.  Given that they are going to be around for eternity anyway, would they not eventually probably decide that it was worth it to change?  I suppose the same could be asked for those in the Terrestrial or Telestial Kingdoms.

Then the question would be, do those Spirits who were cast out continue to hate God only because there is no advantage for them to try to change, or even if they were given the opportunity, would they continue to hate Him forever anyway because they will never want to change?  I am certain my understanding is limited, but I find it difficult to believe that after about a million years of outer darkness they would get tired of it and give something else a try, if they were able to that is.

[zil]

1 hour ago, Carborendum said:

There is some inherent trait in each of us that doesn't change.

I believe this to a terrifying degree.  I believe Telestial beings have always been Telestial beings - the same for Terrestrial and Celestial.  Not in the sense that they have reached the fullness of their potential, but in the sense that they consistently choose the Telestial / Terrestrial / Celestial option, at every (or nearly every, or on average) opportunity - and always have.

1 hour ago, Carborendum said:

...not because of an arbitrary rule or declaration from the Lord.  They remain because it is their very nature to only do certain things. ...

While I believe the latter, and I believe that there is no arbitrary rule or declaration from the Lord, I do believe there is a hard / fixed / eternal limit placed, and there are rules which govern these things (every kingdom has a law) (I will refer back to the below at least once more before I'm done, but this first time, we'll go with the bold):

Quote

D&C 88

28 They who are of a celestial spirit shall receive the same body which was a natural body; even ye shall receive your bodies, and your glory shall be that glory by which your bodies are quickened.

29 Ye who are quickened by a portion of the celestial glory shall then receive of the same, even a fulness.

30 And they who are quickened by a portion of the terrestrial glory shall then receive of the same, even a fulness.

31 And also they who are quickened by a portion of the telestial glory shall then receive of the same, even a fulness.

32 And they who remain shall also be quickened; nevertheless, they shall return again to their own place, to enjoy that which they are willing to receive, because they were not willing to enjoy that which they might have received.

The implication here is that when you are resurrected (that's the topic started before these verses), it will be with a particular glory and that is the thing that makes your resurrected body alive (quickened).  Now if we are immortal, we cannot die and be resurrected again, thus, how could one possibly go from one glory to another?   At that point, the body is incapable; it is eternally of the specified glory.  (See also 1 Corinthians 15.)

Changing gears for a moment before we bring things back together.  We preach the gospel to the spirits in prison.  We believe that people in the spirit world can repent (see D&C 138).  But look here at what Alma says about Adam and what would have happened had Adam, essentially, made himself immortal by partaking of the Tree of Life while still in his sins:

Quote

Alma 42

3 Now, we see that the man had become as God, knowing good and evil; and lest he should put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat and live forever, the Lord God placed cherubim and the flaming sword, that he should not partake of the fruit—

4 And thus we see, that there was a time granted unto man to repent, yea, a probationary time, a time to repent and serve God.

5 For behold, if Adam had put forth his hand immediately, and partaken of the tree of life, he would have lived forever, according to the word of God, having no space for repentance; yea, and also the word of God would have been void, and the great plan of salvation would have been frustrated.

A spirit can repent, but apparently, even if a resurrected being can repent (and above makes that look questionable), that has no impact on the glory wherewith they were quickened.  Presumably, had Adam done this, he would have been quickened with no glory (see D&C 88:32 above).  He would have both immortalized and damned himself.

Now let's bring these two back together with D&C 88:28 and a quote from Joseph Fielding Smith, Jr. (bold is mine).

Quote

D&C 88:28 They who are of a celestial spirit shall receive the same body which was a natural body; even ye shall receive your bodies, and your glory shall be that glory by which your bodies are quickened.

Note that D&C 88:28 only refers to the celestial - there is no similar wording for terrestrial or telestial (go hunt - I don't see it anywhere in scripture, let alone this section - there's wording which could be mistaken for "same", but it doesn't say "same", let alone get this explicit).  Now see what JFS had to say (bold mine):

Quote

Some will gain celestial bodies with all the powers of exaltation and eternal increase. These bodies will shine like the sun as our Savior's does, as described by John. Those who enter the terrestrial kingdom will have terrestrial bodies, and they will not shine like the sun, but they will be more glorious than the bodies of those who receive the telestial glory.

In both of these kingdoms there will be changes in the bodies and limitations. They will not have the power of increase, neither the power or nature to live as husbands and wives, for this will be denied them and they cannot increase.

...

Some of the functions in the celestial body will not appear in the terrestrial body, neither in the telestial body, and the power of procreation will be removed. I take it that men and women will, in these kingdoms, be just what the so-called Christian world expects us all to be -- neither man nor woman, merely immortal beings having received the resurrection.

Joseph Fielding Smith Jr., Doctrines of Salvation, Vol.2, Pg.287

Now yes, we can say that this is JFS's understanding, that it may or may not be correct.  And yet, the D&C seems pretty clear that the different resurrections will result in different bodies and that only the celestial will receive the same body.  And we know that only in the highest glory will there be husbands, wives, and procreation.

From all this, I conclude that resurrection results in an unchangeable state.  You can reach the limit (if there is one) of the type of resurrection you receive, but you cannot go beyond the limit, thus, you cannot progress from one glory to the next.

Edited April 6, 2018 by zil

[Rob Osborn]

46 minutes ago, Jersey Boy said:

Then how do you account for the plain and unambiguous doctrinal declarations in D&C 76 that there are three discrete heavenly kingdoms of glory that saved humanity will inherit after the final judgement? The 76th section teaches us that the Celestial glory can be likened to the brightness of the sun, the Terrestrial glory can be likened to the reflected brightness of the moon, and the Telestial glory can be likened to the brightness of the distant stars? Do you reject the teachings of D&C 76 pertaining to these three kingdoms of glory?

It’s also plainly obvious that in LDS theology there are two kinds of Telestial kingdoms, one of them being the dwelling place of fallen premillennial mortal mankind and the other being the dwelling place of those saved resurrected human beings who are no able to inherit nor appreciate an everlasting existence in either the Celestial or Terrestrial kingdoms of glory. This is very basic and easy to understand LDS doctrine and I’m somewhat mystified that there seem to be members of the Church who either don’t believe in the three degrees of post-resurrected glory or have somehow missed it.

Its comng to a different understanding over time because of choice experiences one has that shape a different view

[wenglund]

1 hour ago, estradling75 said:

Well lets see if we can.  I problem I have always found with a progression between Kingdoms model is... If we will all eventually reach Exaltation then why exactly are we told that "now is the time to prepare" and not to "procrastinate the day of our repentance."  It seems to me if I can pick up everything I need later why not have sinful fun now?

The only way any kind of urgency matters now is if it is not possible to do it later.

There is also the dilemma inherent in  the prospect of eternal procrastination. If people are made aware that there is a slim chance that they could repent down the road, they may eternally indulge their unrighteousness thinking that at some point down the road they may repent. Whereas, alerting them that now is the time for them to prepare to meet God, might give them the needed incentive to change.

In other words, the future possibility of change may, ironically, rob people of the incentive to change, thereby preventing them from changing. God, in his infinite love and wisdom, may understand this dilemma, and he resolves it with by imposing deadlines. 

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[Rob Osborn]

8 minutes ago, zil said:

I believe this to a terrifying degree.  I believe Telestial beings have always been Telestial beings - the same for Terrestrial and Celestial.  Not in the sense that they have reached the fullness of their potential, but in the sense that they consistently choose the Telestial / Terrestrial / Celestial option, at every (or nearly every, or on average) opportunity - and always have.

While I believe the latter, and I believe that there is no arbitrary rule or declaration from the Lord, I do believe there is a hard / fixed / eternal limit placed, and there are rules which govern these things (every kingdom has a law) (I will refer back to the below at least once more before I'm done, but this first time, we'll go with the bold):

The implication here is that when you are resurrected (that's the topic started before these verses), it will be with a particular glory and that is the thing that makes your resurrected body alive (quickened).  Now if we are immortal, we cannot die and be resurrected again, thus, how could one possibly go from one glory to another?   At that point, the body is incapable; it is eternally of the specified glory.  (See also 1 Corinthians 15.)

Changing gears for a moment before we bring things back together.  We preach the gospel to the spirits in prison.  We believe that people in the spirit world can repent (see D&C 138).  But look here at what Alma says about Adam and what would have happened had Adam, essentially, made himself immortal by partaking of the Tree of Life while still in his sins:

A spirit can repent, but apparently, even if a resurrected being can repent (and above makes that look questionable), that has no impact on the glory wherewith they were quickened.  Presumably, had Adam done this, he would have been quickened with no glory (see D&C 88:32 above).  He would have both immortalized and damned himself.

Now let's bring these two back together with D&C 88:28 and a quote from Joseph Fielding Smith, Jr. (bold is mine).

Note that D&C 88:28 only refers to the celestial - there is no similar wording for terrestrial or telestial (go hunt - I don't see it anywhere in scripture, let alone this section - there's wording which could be mistaken for "same", but it doesn't say "same", let alone get this explicit).  Now see what JFS had to say (bold mine):

Now yes, we can say that this is JFS's understanding, that it may or may not be correct.  And yet, the D&C seems pretty clear that the different resurrections will result in different bodies and that only the celestial will receive the same body.  And we know that only in the highest glory will there be husbands, wives, and procreation.

From all this, I conclude that resurrection results in an unchangeable state.  You can reach the limit (if there is one) of the type of resurrection you receive, but you cannot go beyond the limit, thus, you cannot progress from one glory to the next.

Resurrected bodies to this point have been resurrected with a telestial glory as thats what glory tge earth is. When Christ vones they will he quickened yo terrestrial glory and then after the millennium to celestial glory. So, yes, resurrected bodies do change.

[estradling75]

10 minutes ago, wenglund said:

There is also the dilemma inherent in  the prospect of eternal procrastination. If people are made aware that there is a slim chance that they could repent down the road, they may eternally indulge their unrighteousness thinking that at some point down the road they may repent. Whereas, alerting them that now is the time for them to prepare to meet God, might give them the needed incentive to change.

In other words, the future possibility of change may, ironically, rob people of the incentive to change, thereby preventing them from changing. God, in his infinite love and wisdom, may understand this dilemma, and he resolves it with by imposing deadlines. 

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Exactly... eternal procrastination could be why we can't progress between kingdoms.   But it still boils down to it not happening

[Jersey Boy]

1 minute ago, Rob Osborn said:

Its comng to a different understanding over time because of choice experiences one has that shape a different view

Can you cite for me just one post-D&C 76 quote from any LDS Church General Authority, past or present,  in which the Church leader teaches that there are not three post-resurrection degrees of heavenly glory?

[wenglund]

17 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

Resurrected bodies to this point have been resurrected with a telestial glory as thats what glory tge earth is. When Christ vones they will he quickened yo terrestrial glory and then after the millennium to celestial glory. So, yes, resurrected bodies do change.

Rob may be onto something here, @zil. He may be giving new meaning to the phrase "the first shall be last and the last shall be first."  

As we understanding it, the "day" of resurrection goes as we understand days, with the morning coming first (Celestial resurrection), then noon coming second (Terrestrial resurrection)", and the evening coming third (Telestial resurrection); whereas in truth it is just the opposite, the first is last and the last is first. Figuratively, the resurrection earth has reversed its rotation.

That, or Rob is seeing up as down and down as up. 

I know on which I am placing my bet.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Edited April 6, 2018 by wenglund

[zil]

2 minutes ago, wenglund said:

Rob may be onto something here, @zil.

The wrong path, but that's about all he's onto.

[Rob Osborn]

8 minutes ago, Jersey Boy said:

Can you cite for me just one post-D&C 76 quote from any LDS Church General Authority, past or present,  in which the Church leader teaches that there are not three post-resurrection degrees of heavenly glory?

To not be misunderstood, I believe there are still three degrees of glory within the celestial kingdom. What I dont believe is that there are three different worlds of glory the saved go after resurrection. Thats said, the temple endowment is the most up to date doctrine we have regarding the plan of salvation. There we are taught the true neanings of the three worlds of glory and that we are currently in the Telestial kingdom now. We progress through each kingdom until we gain salvation in the celestial kingdom.

[Rob Osborn]

10 minutes ago, wenglund said:

Rob may be onto something here, @zil. He may be giving new meaning to the phrase "the first shall be last and the last shall be first."  

As we understanding it, the "day" of resurrection goes as we understand days, with the morning coming first (Celestial resurrection), then noon coming second (Terrestrial resurrection)", and the evening coming third (Telestial resurrection); whereas in truth it is just the opposite, the first is last and the last is first.

That, or Rob is seeing up as down and down as up. 

I know on which I am placing my bet.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Study every scripture that deals with the parable of the wheat and the tares. When you do PM me and I will tell you about a certain temple where I live and how it relates to what I am saying. Its much to sacred to be kicked around in here.

[Jersey Boy]

25 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

Resurrected bodies to this point have been resurrected with a telestial glory as thats what glory tge earth is. When Christ vones they will he quickened yo terrestrial glory and then after the millennium to celestial glory. So, yes, resurrected bodies do change.

29 Abraham received all things, whatsoever he received, by revelation and commandment, by my word, saith the Lord, and hath entered into his exaltation and sitteth upon his throne.

 

[Rob Osborn]

19 minutes ago, Jersey Boy said:

29 Abraham received all things, whatsoever he received, by revelation and commandment, by my word, saith the Lord, and hath entered into his exaltation and sitteth upon his throne.

 

Hum, so he is sitting there while Christ has to wait to sit on his throne eh?

[Jersey Boy]

27 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

Hum, so he is sitting there while Christ has to wait to sit on his throne eh?

37 Abraham received concubines, and they bore him children; and it was accounted unto him for righteousness, because they were given unto him, and he abode in my law; as Isaac also and Jacob did none other things than that which they were commanded; and because they did none other things than that which they were commanded, they have entered into their exaltation, according to the promises, and sit upon thrones, and are not angels but are gods.

 

Edited April 6, 2018 by Jersey Boy

[Guest]

2 hours ago, zil said:

While I believe the latter, and I believe that there is no arbitrary rule or declaration from the Lord, I do believe there is a hard / fixed / eternal limit placed, and there are rules which govern these things (every kingdom has a law) (I will refer back to the below at least once more before I'm done, but this first time, we'll go with the bold):

Thank you for the quotes.  

I believe this quoted section here may be a semantic issue.  There are fundamental laws.  And I believe it is the fundamental laws that govern this.  But my statement about "arbitrary" is a rebuttal to arguments I've heard against the 3 degrees that there are too many rules that don't make sense or such hard and fast lines being drawn.

My idea is that what we read in the revelation is not a set of rules given or lines drawn.  It is a description of the reality to inform us what is expected of us.  Judgment, not the gnat and camel are to be the final measure of where we end up.

[Guest]

1 hour ago, wenglund said:

Rob may be onto something here, @zil. He may be giving new meaning to the phrase "the first shall be last and the last shall be first."  

As we understanding it, the "day" of resurrection goes as we understand days, with the morning coming first (Celestial resurrection), then noon coming second (Terrestrial resurrection)", and the evening coming third (Telestial resurrection); whereas in truth it is just the opposite, the first is last and the last is first. Figuratively, the resurrection earth has reversed its rotation.

That, or Rob is seeing up as down and down as up. 

I know on which I am placing my bet.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[Guest]

2 hours ago, wenglund said:

There is also the dilemma inherent in  the prospect of eternal procrastination. If people are made aware that there is a slim chance that they could repent down the road, they may eternally indulge their unrighteousness thinking that at some point down the road they may repent. Whereas, alerting them that now is the time for them to prepare to meet God, might give them the needed incentive to change.

In other words, the future possibility of change may, ironically, rob people of the incentive to change, thereby preventing them from changing. God, in his infinite love and wisdom, may understand this dilemma, and he resolves it with by imposing deadlines. 

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

I'm not sure if he's even imposing a deadline.

When studying the old testament, one thing I found was that there was a reason that our lives were shortened after the flood.  The long lifespans prior to the flood were an indicator of our eternal futures.  It proved that even if we had more time in this life, all it would do is make us even more set in our sin or righteousness. There really was no change after a certain point in our lives.  We could have had a 10,000 year lifespan and nothing would really change beyond the first 100.

On the other hand, the deadline thing could just be a proportion thing.  If we have a "dying" process that is 5 to 10 years, then it is more merciful to only give us 60 to 90 years to build up all our habits and biases and messed up conception of reality.  So, we might be more malleable in those final 5 to 10 years and be subject to change.

Can you imagine if we had 900 years to build up habits?  How ingrained would they be?  And to try to fix that in the last 5 to 10 years?  Not a chance.

Now stretch that out to eternity?  I don't think it is an exact multiplier like 3x (as noted in other posts).  I believe it is that when we're in our resurrected bodies, our habits will somehow be made permanent. If we had habits of continuing in sin, we will continue in sin forever.  If we had habits of continually trying to overcome sin and continually seek out the glory of the Lord, then we will continually and forever overcome our own sin as well as help others do so as we seek out the glory of the Lord.

[Rob Osborn]

1 hour ago, Jersey Boy said:

37 Abraham received concubines, and they bore him children; and it was accounted unto him for righteousness, because they were given unto him, and he abode in my law; as Isaac also and Jacob did none other things than that which they were commanded; and because they did none other things than that which they were commanded, they have entered into their exaltation, according to the promises, and sit upon thrones, and are not angels but are gods.

 

Hum...it was always my understanding that it isnt until the Father comes in his kingdom at the end of the millennium that we receive are crowns and celestial glory...

 

[Traveler]

6 hours ago, Rob Osborn said:

Im trying to establish the reality that perfection is required for salvation but that attainment cant happen in this life alone.

 

WHY?

First – I find you thinking interesting.   But I am testing your ideas to see how far and carefully you have thought them through.   What then, is important and essential for us to get out of this life? or learn or acomplish in this life?  Since perfection is required for salvation but not as a parameter for this life – What is required for this life?  And why concern ourselves with things that are not achievable in this life?  Or doctrines that do not matter in this life?

 

The Traveler

[Rob Osborn]

4 hours ago, Traveler said:

 

WHY?

First – I find you thinking interesting.   But I am testing your ideas to see how far and carefully you have thought them through.   What then, is important and essential for us to get out of this life? or learn or acomplish in this life?  Since perfection is required for salvation but not as a parameter for this life – What is required for this life?  And why concern ourselves with things that are not achievable in this life?  Or doctrines that do not matter in this life?

 

The Traveler

Its important to gain experience, progress and enter into the covenant relationship with Christ. For many that happens in the spirit world. The big thing is our heart- choosing the right path with our hearts. So much emphasis is made on living up to a celestial set of laws here in mortality it drives me nuts. Celestial glory requires perfection- completely changed in our hearts doing no sin and having no more desire for sin. Its pretty much unreachable in this short life. But, it is important to understand the pathway leading to perfection and start getting the principle things right.

Many do not realize that its during the millennium that we will really learn and grow and make those necessary steps that makes perfection attainable. Having Christ in our midst and Satan bound will do wonders for our progression. This great period is where Christ will work with the kingdom to bring as nany as will into the church of the Firstborn to perfect them. This is the only kingdom, or people, he will prepare for salvation. But, he will be victorious and ferret out and save all those the Father has given him to save. These all will, and must be, members of the church of the Firstborn and thus be holy and without spot (without any sin nor desire for such). As Revelations states- they shall be clothed in white raiment, names retained in book of life and inhabitants of the holy city (celestial glory). Christ has NO POWER to save anyone else.

If we believe Christ will save the unrepentant we are dead wrong. The principle of gaining salvation requires ordinances and covenants. Those ordinances and covenants advance us, and always do, into the very type of being God is. There is no such thing as kingdoms of glory that do not advance man into becoming gods. Anything, and everything God does, is to advance us into becoming just like him. At no time, nor is it possible, to enter into the path of salvation and become something less than what God is. There is no such thing as eternal stagnation in Gods mansions. If we enter that path leading back to God we will assuredly become just like him someday. If we choose not to at some point we must be cast aside as it will because of open rebellion to light and truth. We were created solely for becoming gods ourselves. The path of salvation and glory is to prepare us for becoming gods ourselves, there is no other option, unless of course we choose the path Satan is on.

It is this very reason I reject the notions of our strange heaven where even unbaptized sinners can go, somehow stuck in some eternal quagmire of not necessarily choosing to become like God but not really wanting to becone like Satan either. It defies everything Christ did in his atonement. The power of the atonement is the power to cleanse and erase all sin and its effects and place us back into the Fathers very presence. To somehow believe a great body of souls will or can be saved from the devil into some kingdom not in the Fathers presence in eternity is absurd. 

I dont think people understand that if one is saved from hell its because they have become sons of God, reborn again unto spiritual life through baptism having no more desire to do evil. and if reborn, then members of the church of the Firstborn. And what is the Firstborns inheritance? All that the Father hath. So too are all the saved in receiving the same inheritance- having taken upon themselves Christs holy name through baptism becoming holy and without spot. What prevents us now from the Fathers presence? Our sins, our filthiness. But, in the end all the saved, according to scripture, will be holy and without spot. What then will prevent them from being in the Fathers very presence? Nothing! This is the very principle people just dont understand.

Edited April 7, 2018 by Rob Osborn

[The Folk Prophet]

19 hours ago, wenglund said:

That, or Rob is seeing up good as down evil and down evil as up good.

Fixed it.

[Rob Osborn]

6 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said:

Fixed it.

How can I see it that wsy when I say one must repent to be saved? If thats evil to say that...wow!

[The Folk Prophet]

11 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

How can I see it that wsy when I say one must repent to be saved? If thats evil to say that...wow!

Satan himself says some things that are true.

[Rob Osborn]

2 hours ago, The Folk Prophet said:

Satan himself says some things that are true.

And I am not on Satans side so who are you talking about?

[wenglund]

On 4/6/2018 at 12:53 PM, zil said:

The wrong path, but that's about all he's onto.

Upon further reflection, I am not so sure. I think that for the most part @Rob Osborn is on the right track. It is just that he has yet to progress from the truth of old light and knowledge to the greater truth of new light and knowledge. He seems stuck in the fundamentalist and binary view of the afterlife (1st century AD to pre-restoration Christianity), and hasn't quite grasped the elevated nuances of modern revelation and the fullness of the restored gospel. In a sense, he hasn't progressed beyond Terrestrial spirituality-I'll exp[lain what I mean below)

There are some points about which Rob seems spot on. I will touch on them in this post, and in the following post I will point out what I believe he is missing.

Rob is quite correct that, in terms of spirituality, our ascension through the kingdoms is inverted to the order of our descending or fall. Our descension went from the celestial kingdom of spirits, to the terrestial kindom of the garden, to the telestial kingdom of fallen earth; whereas our spiritual ascension in mortality, and to an extent beyond the grave, takes us from the telestial kingdom (consisting of a general belief or disbelief in God), to the terrestrial kingdom (partial acceptance of Christ and his Gospel, such as with much of Christianity), and finally the celestial kingdom (full acceptance of Christ and his restored gospel).

Further details of these kingdoms of mortality and earth are indirectly covered in section 76 of the D&C.  And, as Rob hinted, the fall and ascension are attested in the temple, if not also its architecture--see this article by Jeffery M Bradshaw/

I will explain why it is indirect in my next post when I explain what I believe Rob is missing. 

Here is a graphic I posted on another thread depicting the fall from kingdoms to kingdom, with associated priesthoods, covenants, laws, etc. similar to what @Traveler spoke about recently on this thread:

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Edited April 8, 2018 by wenglund