Repentance after death

[wenglund]

34 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said:

Now @wenglund, to be fair, and I'm sure this will surprise @Rob Osborn, because he thinks he knows what I think and believe, but he doesn't, but... The Book of Mormons' teachings by a plain reading do, indeed, contradict the later revelation on the plan of salvation. The Book of Mormon implies a whole heck of a lot of people are going to outer darkness. I have often had that thought in the past.

The problem isn't seeing the contradiction. Anyone intelligent enough would. It's how one resolves it -- or, rather, it's a consideration of whether it's even that important to resolve -- which I do not believe it is.*

Casting off later revelation and the teachings of our modern prophets and apostles, as Rob is wont to do, is not a very wise way to resolve the issue.

* What I mean by this is that we can trust the general intent of the teachings in the Book of Mormon, which are warnings to repent, without worrying about the conflict of "doctrine". We know we have been warned to repent by the prophets. Whether one resolves the issue by explaining away the contradictions with word definitions games or says the BoM prophets didn't have the full picture yet (line-upon-line revelation) or some other explanation is less important than two points that ARE important. 1. We listen to the counsel to repent and not delay that. 2. We don't lead others to confusion and to mistrust our living prophets and apostles.

Rob and I agree on 1#, I am sure.

#2 is where I feel he is wildly out of order. But even though we agree on point 1 in theory, I believe his philosophies are highly harmful in that regard as well and those philosophies would, if accepted by any individual, run the risk of moving said individual to worry less, if at all, about their immediate repentance. That is why I go after him so hard and why I will continue to go after him on this matter.

 

19 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

Take a go at the scripture.

Please see my post above.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[Rob Osborn]

1 hour ago, wenglund said:

Growing up my parents and teachers and other authority figures would speak to me in binary terms. They would say things like, "be safe and stay in the yard, and don't play in the street or you will get hit by a car," or "If you want to be successful, study hard and go to college, otherwise you will end up a bum," or "eating vegetables will make you strong, and eating sweets will make you sick," and "if you want to grow up tall and live long, then don't smoke because it will stunt your growth and cause you to die young," and on and on infinitude.

This made sense for several reasons. 1) My immature and fundamentalist mind lacked the capacity to deal effectively with nuances and relativity--in other words, I wasn't prepared to grasp the difference between general rules and absolutes  2) things were stated simply and briefly because my immature and fundamentalist mind lacked the patience for a lengthy and complex explanation. and 3) It was far more persuasive to me at the time, and perhaps even today, than the alternative. There may be other reasons, but that should suffice.

We also had family rules that were binary in nature, with firm punishments for disobedience: "pick up your room or you can't go out to play," or "be in by 10pm or you will lose your driving privilege," etc. etc." 

This was understandable as well for the same reasons.

However, when I became older, I was told things along the lines of D&C 76.  Fortunately, my mind had matured to where I could grasp the nuanced information and rules while still seeing the sense of the binary declarations.

Not everyone is equipped to make the developmental transition--which is why the binary declarations are still needed (hence, binary scriptures post D&C 76).

The purpose is to persuade men to do good and become better, and this in ways they are able to receive it. So, to each their own.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

I grew up thinking in binary terms too with the gospel. It was black or white. Then I got older and learned the layers and nuances of the plan and it was a new understanding and it made sense. Then after about 15 years I had several experiences that started to enhance and change my perception. One was a dream where I saw some close family members in their resurrected form in the celestial kingdom clothed in white raiment. They were glorious beings. But more than that they were extremely happy, the kind of happiness that comes from eating the fruit from the tree of life. They came to me and thanked me andhugged me. Now, these specific family members are old in age, near unto death. One is LDS but has fallen away and vowed to never return. The other refuses to join the church. Both have bad habits of which they have had their whole adult lives. They just arent going to repent and join/ come back to the church in mortality. The dream was so real and vivid I think it more of a heavenly vision of the future. The other was a conversation with a person not of our faith. Needless to say he helped me to see a few contradictions. I wont bring up my patriarchal blessing anymore on this topic as many trample under their feet my blessings and gifts.

I was called as the gospel priciples teacher in my ward not long after that. As I studied and taught over several years I was coming to these overwhelming conclusions that something is amiss. That point was about 15 years ago or so. Since then I have tried to reconcile my experiences with the gospel. I have found in that journey how to recognize truth. I have also come to understand how God reveals truth through his holy prophets line upon line and how opinions can and do become doctrine in the church. 

The most important thing I have learned though is the paramount importance of how principles are applied in the gospel. Most of the dialogue I am trying to address is those foundational principles and why, when you correctly understand them, build a much different picture of the gospel than we have otherwise perceived. 

[Rob Osborn]

1 hour ago, wenglund said:

 

Please see my post above.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

So, dont want to take a go at the scripture eh?

[wenglund]

12 hours ago, Rob Osborn said:

They suffer the same fate. Baptism is essential to salvation from hell. It is the only means that men can repent and be forgiven (cleansed).

I noticed you didn't answer the second question, so here it is again: "If so, then how are good works rewarded to those honorable men in heaven [that you believe will receive the same fate as Sons of Perdition]?

Quote

So, dont want to take a go at the scripture eh?

I did, but it was nuanced. Sorry you missed it.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[Rob Osborn]

22 minutes ago, wenglund said:

I noticed you didn't answer the second question, so here it is again: "If so, then how are good works rewarded to those honorable men in heaven [that you believe will receive the same fate as Sons of Perdition]?

I did, but it was nuanced. Sorry you missed it.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Good works pertain unto works of salvation- baptism, endowment, etc. It doesnt really matter what a person does if they fail to repent and be baptized, they must be cast aside.

[wenglund]

11 hours ago, Rob Osborn said:

I grew up thinking in binary terms too with the gospel. It was black or white. Then I got older and learned the layers and nuances of the plan and it was a new understanding and it made sense. Then after about 15 years I had several experiences that started to enhance and change my perception. One was a dream where I saw some close family members in their resurrected form in the celestial kingdom clothed in white raiment. They were glorious beings. But more than that they were extremely happy, the kind of happiness that comes from eating the fruit from the tree of life.

What convinced you that they were in the Celestial Kingdom? I ask because, according to Lehi's vision, there were those who partook of the Tree of Life who later felt shame because of the Great and Spacious building. And, according to Section 76, the telestial glory "surpasses all understanding."

Quote

They came to me and thanked me and hugged me.

Why would they thank you instead of thanking Jesus Christ, particularly given your acknowledged failure to influence them during mortality?

Based on my own personal experience with profound revelation, I would caution against leaning too heavily on your own understanding when interpreting the same. While one may not be able to deny what one experienced at the hand of the Spirit, the same cannot be said for one's personal interpretation of the same. For my own part, I saw what I saw, or rather I was undeniably told what I was told, but I was mistaken in some of my interpretations of what I was told, and read way more into it than what was actually revealed. The fact that your interpretations stand at odds with modern prophets, ought to give you serious pause. That it seemingly doesn't, well...I will just leave it at that. To each their own.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[wenglund]

8 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

Good works pertain unto works of salvation- baptism, endowment, etc. It doesnt really matter what a person does if they fail to repent and be baptized, they must be cast aside.

So, in your world view, the following are not good works:  feeding the hungry, giving drink to the thirsty, taking in strangers, clothing the naked,  visiting the sick and those in prison? 

Careful, this is a trick question given Mt. 25:34-46

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[The Folk Prophet]

4 hours ago, wenglund said:

Careful, this is a trick question given Mt. 25:34-46

Uh oh.... apparently using "trickery" of any sort makes you a liar.

[warnerfranklin]

CS Lewis says in his book The Great Divorce:

“In the end there will only be two types of people, those who say to God, ‘thy will be done,’ and to those whom God says, ‘thy will be done.’ All who are in hell have chosen to be there.  When all is said and done we will find that in the end that the gates of Hell are not locked from without, but from within.”

Paul tells us in Romans that those who have never heard of Christ will be judged by the law God has written upon our hearts.  

But hell does exist (even in the limited way us Mormons see it).  That is why we must continue to support missions, live Godly lives, and reach out with love to those we can. 

 

[The Folk Prophet]

18 hours ago, Rob Osborn said:

I was called as the gospel priciples teacher in my ward not long after that. As I studied and taught over several years I was coming to these overwhelming conclusions that something is amiss. That point was about 15 years ago or so. Since then I have tried to reconcile my experiences with the gospel. I have found in that journey how to recognize truth. I have also come to understand how God reveals truth through his holy prophets line upon line and how opinions can and do become doctrine in the church.

Here's what the scriptures teach about finding truth:

-And the Spirit giveth light to every man that cometh into the world; and the Spirit enlighteneth every man through the world, that hearkeneth to the voice of the Spirit.

-Wherefore, I the Lord ask you this question—unto what were ye ordained? To preach my gospel by the Spirit, even the Comforter which was sent forth to teach the truth.

-Verily, verily, I say unto thee, blessed art thou for what thou hast done; for thou hast inquired of me, and behold, as often as thou hast inquired thou hast received instruction of my Spirit. If it had not been so, thou wouldst not have come to the place where thou art at this time.

-Behold, thou knowest that thou hast inquired of me and I did enlighten thy mind; and now I tell thee these things that thou mayest know that thou hast been enlightened by the Spirit of truth;

-And by the power of the Holy Ghost ye may know the truth of all things.

-Behold, my brethren, he that prophesieth, let him prophesy to the understanding of men; for the Spirit speaketh the truth and lieth not. Wherefore, it speaketh of things as they really are, and of things as they really will be; wherefore, these things are manifested unto us plainly, for the salvation of our souls.

vs. Rob:

-I figured this out on my own based on some council from a non-member and haven't had confirmation on it from the Spirit.

 

[Rob Osborn]

7 hours ago, wenglund said:

What convinced you that they were in the Celestial Kingdom? I ask because, according to Lehi's vision, there were those who partook of the Tree of Life who later felt shame because of the Great and Spacious building. And, according to Section 76, the telestial glory "surpasses all understanding."

Why would they thank you instead of thanking Jesus Christ, particularly given your acknowledged failure to influence them during mortality?

Based on my own personal experience with profound revelation, I would caution against leaning too heavily on your own understanding when interpreting the same. While one may not be able to deny what one experienced at the hand of the Spirit, the same cannot be said for one's personal interpretation of the same. For my own part, I saw what I saw, or rather I was undeniably told what I was told, but I was mistaken in some of my interpretations of what I was told, and read way more into it than what was actually revealed. The fact that your interpretations stand at odds with modern prophets, ought to give you serious pause. That it seemingly doesn't, well...I will just leave it at that. To each their own.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

They were in the celestial kingdom. There was no doubt about that. They thanked me because of the temple, vicarious ordinances performed in their behalf and their acceptance of the gospel.

Im not so sure my interpretations are really at odds with the prophets. They are in line with the temple and that is the last line upon line knowledge we have received. I feel comforted in that knowledge. I was overjoyed when a prophet said in conference we were in the telestial kingdom. Im in good company!

[Rob Osborn]

7 hours ago, wenglund said:

So, in your world view, the following are not good works:  feeding the hungry, giving drink to the thirsty, taking in strangers, clothing the naked,  visiting the sick and those in prison? 

Careful, this is a trick question given Mt. 25:34-46

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Of course they are. They are within the covenant one makes.

7 You will discover in this quotation that the books were opened; and another book was opened, which was the book of life; but the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works; consequently, the books spoken of must be the books which contained the record of their works, and refer to the records which are kept on the earth. And the book which was the book of life is the record which is kept in heaven; the principle agreeing precisely with the doctrine which is commanded you in the revelation contained in the letter which I wrote to you previous to my leaving my place—that in all your recordings it may be recorded in heaven.
            8 Now, the nature of this ordinance consists in the power of the priesthood, by the revelation of Jesus Christ, wherein it is granted that whatsoever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatsoever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven. Or, in other words, taking a different view of the translation, whatsoever you record on earth shall be recorded in heaven, and whatsoever you do not record on earth shall not be recorded in heaven; for out of the books shall your dead be judged, according to their own works, whether they themselves have attended to the ordinances in their own propria persona, or by the means of their own agents, according to the ordinance which God has prepared for their salvation from before the foundation of the world, according to the records which they have kept concerning their dead. (D&C 128:7-8)

[Rob Osborn]

13 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said:

Here's what the scriptures teach about finding truth:

-And the Spirit giveth light to every man that cometh into the world; and the Spirit enlighteneth every man through the world, that hearkeneth to the voice of the Spirit.

-Wherefore, I the Lord ask you this question—unto what were ye ordained? To preach my gospel by the Spirit, even the Comforter which was sent forth to teach the truth.

-Verily, verily, I say unto thee, blessed art thou for what thou hast done; for thou hast inquired of me, and behold, as often as thou hast inquired thou hast received instruction of my Spirit. If it had not been so, thou wouldst not have come to the place where thou art at this time.

-Behold, thou knowest that thou hast inquired of me and I did enlighten thy mind; and now I tell thee these things that thou mayest know that thou hast been enlightened by the Spirit of truth;

-And by the power of the Holy Ghost ye may know the truth of all things.

-Behold, my brethren, he that prophesieth, let him prophesy to the understanding of men; for the Spirit speaketh the truth and lieth not. Wherefore, it speaketh of things as they really are, and of things as they really will be; wherefore, these things are manifested unto us plainly, for the salvation of our souls.

vs. Rob:

-I figured this out on my own based on some council from a non-member and haven't had confirmation on it from the Spirit.

 

This is that part where you are manipulative and obtuse. Good day.

[The Folk Prophet]

1 minute ago, Rob Osborn said:

This is that part where you are manipulative and obtuse. Good day.

He says manipulatively and obtusely.

[Rob Osborn]

1 minute ago, The Folk Prophet said:

He says manipulatively and obtusely.

Im starting to believe your name should be "The False Prophet"

[The Folk Prophet]

Just now, Rob Osborn said:

Im starting to believe your name should be "The False Prophet"

He says even more manipulatively and obtusely.

[Rob Osborn]

2 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said:

He says even more manipulatively and obtusely.

I know you are not a true disciple of Jesus Christ.

[anatess2]

21 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

I know you are not a true disciple of Jesus Christ.

Stop.  Detach.  Breathe.  Stretch.  Breathe.

Okay.  Re-engage when you're ready.  You know this is uncalled for.  You are better than this.

[Rob Osborn]

Just now, anatess2 said:

Stop.  Detach.  Breathe.  Stretch.  Breathe.

Okay.  Re-engage when you're ready.  You know this is uncalled for.  You are better than this.

Im at ends to explain why TFP continues to mischaracterize me. I know true disciples of Christ dont do that sort of thing.

[Guest]

35 minutes ago, anatess2 said:

Stop.  Detach.  Breathe.  Stretch.  Breathe.

Okay.  Re-engage when you're ready.  You know this is uncalled for.  You are better than this.

I knew he was a Scotsman!

[The Folk Prophet]

2 hours ago, anatess2 said:

You know this is uncalled for.  You are better than this.

Liar!

 

[Rob Osborn]

Getting back on topic, I was reading and studying about remission of sins and its role. A definition I found that I really like is this-

remission: The cancellation of a debt, charge, or penalty. https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/remission

the penalty of sin is to be forever cut off from God, to be condemned eternally to hell. Gaining a "remission" is the removal of the eternal effects of sin. It cancels the debt owed.

Its one thing to change, repent and turn to Christ. But those works and tokens by themselves do not grant one that remission- that cancellation of debt to be payed eternally. The ordinance of baptism is what grants the remission. Baptism is a token and ordinance showing that a covenant relationship has been entered in with God. We covenant to obey God and all he commands us to do. In return God grants us the remission of sins- he cancells the debt to be paid. This is why baptism is an essential ordinance as without it a remission of sins cannot be granted and one must pay the full penalty demanded by justice and they must be cast off forever.

Edited April 20, 2018 by Rob Osborn

[The Folk Prophet]

40 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

The ordinance of baptism is what grants the remission. 

https://www.lds.org/scriptures/bofm/2-ne/31.17?#16

Wherefore, do the things which I have told you I have seen that your Lord and your Redeemer should do; for, for this cause have they been shown unto me, that ye might know the gate by which ye should enter. For the gate by which ye should enter is repentance and baptism by water; and then cometh a remission of your sins by fire and by the Holy Ghost.

https://www.lds.org/scriptures/bofm/3-ne/27.20?#19

Now this is the commandment: Repent, all ye ends of the earth, and come unto me and be baptized in my name, that ye may be sanctified by the reception of the Holy Ghost, that ye may stand spotless before me at the last day.

 

[wenglund]

On 4/19/2018 at 9:18 AM, Rob Osborn said:

The ultimate test however still remains of explaining this one scripture-

27 And the righteous shall be gathered on my right hand unto eternal life; and the wicked on my left hand will I be ashamed to own before the Father;
            28 Wherefore I will say unto them—Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels. (D&C 29:27-28)

There are only two outcomes- becoming righteous and receiving eternal life on the right hand of God or cast out with the devil and his angels. Im curious where whoremongers fit in here? The only possibility is that they are cast into the lake of fire and brimstone which is the second death. 

Let's explain using another analogy, using two descriptions of the same thing: 

Description #1: This is a red and white picture.

Description #2: This is a picture with dark red, medium red, light red, and white.

The first is a binary description like what may be found in D&C 29 and 101, as well as a host of other scriptures, most notably Jn 5:29. Whereas, the second description is more nuanced and detailed, like D&C 76.

Both descriptions are true and at least in one respect consistent, and thus reconciled.

Where they may lack consistency (though not necessarily in a negative way), is that the second description adds new meaning to the words "red" and "white." The second description can be rephrased as: "this is a picture with red, reddish-white, whitish-red, and white." Meaning, that red and white are not always discrete colors, but in some cases they may be combined to create another color, or rather another shade of one or both colors. 

Let's assume, for the sake of understanding, that red represents hell and darkness, and white represents heaven and glory. Using the first description, the picture above would speak of heaven and hell in binary terms, and likewise with darkness and glory.. Whereas, using the second description, the picture above would speak of hell, hellish-heaven, heavenish-hell, and heaven.  It may also describe the picture as darkness, lowest glory, slightly higher glory, and full glory.

Again, both descriptions are true, consistent, and thus reconciled.

It is just that the meaning of hell and heaven has become enlightened through nuance and detail. The old or more simplified light and knowledge of D&C 29 has been elevated by the new and more complex light and knowledge of D&C 76.

I hope this helps.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Edited April 20, 2018 by wenglund

[Rob Osborn]

34 minutes ago, wenglund said:

Let's explain using another analogy, using two descriptions of the same thing: 

Description #1: This is a red and white picture.

Description #2: This is a picture with dark red, medium red, light red, and white.

The first is a binary description like what may be found in D&C 29 and 101, as well as a host of other scriptures, most notably Jn 5:29. Whereas, the second description is more nuanced and detailed, like D&C 76.

Both descriptions are true and at least in one respect consistent, and thus reconciled.

Where they may lack consistency (though not necessarily in a negative way), is that the second description adds new meaning to the words "red" and "white." The second description can be rephrased as: "this is a picture with red, reddish-white, whitish-red, and white." Meaning, that red and white are not always discrete colors, but in some cases they may be combined to create another color, or rather another shade of one or both colors. 

Let's assume, for the sake of understanding, that red represents hell and darkness, and white represents heaven and glory. Using the first description, the picture above would speak of heaven and hell in binary terms, and likewise with darkness and glory.. Whereas, using the second description, the picture above would speak of hell, hellish-heaven, heavenish-hell, and heaven.  It may also describe the picture as darkness, lowest glory, slightly higher glory, and full glory.

Again, both descriptions are true, consistent, and thus reconciled.

It is just that the meaning of hell and heaven has become enlightened through nuance and detail. The old or more simplified light and knowledge of D&C 29 has been elevated by the new and more complex light and knowledge of D&C 76.

I hope this helps.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Not really because God cant allow the least degree of sin. Without even discussing the degrees of glory lets look at it again. We must be cleansed from all our sins, not 1/3, or 3/4 or even 99/100. So, for those on the left hand all of their sins are heaped upon them because they havent repented. On the other hand you have the righteous who are cleansed 100% from all sin. On a light scale, such as yours, where are those wo are saved if unrepented sins represent darkness? If they are all forgiven then no darkness is in them. I think the big hangup is the belief that God will save all sorts of sinners who have varrying levels of darkness in them. But the scriptures state otherwise. Christ presents a spotless kingdom before God, not one that has a couple stains, or a few, or many. Spotless means without blemish. It means perfect. Our problem is we have a hard time believing all the saved will repent of all their sins and become perfect in order to be saved. Thats our true hangup. We are stuck in the dogma that its not possible for Christ to really present a truly "spotless" kingdom to the Father. And so we marvel. But the Lord has said-

25 And the Lord said unto me: Marvel not that all mankind, yea, men and women, all nations, kindreds, tongues and people, must be born again; yea, born of God, changed from their carnal and fallen state, to a state of righteousness, being redeemed of God, becoming his sons and daughters;
            26 And thus they become new creatures; and unless they do this, they can in nowise inherit the kingdom of God.
            27 I say unto you, unless this be the case, they must be cast off; and this I know, because I was like to be cast off. (Mosiah 27:25-27)