Repentance after death

[Guest]

2 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said:

I think you're presuming more of an argument than what I'm actually doing. 

My thought is something along these lines:

I don't think we're going to be so much judged on whether we sinned or not as whether we repented or not.

The "who we are" question comes down to whether we'll repent or not (which comes down to humility or not). That is intimately tied to the "what we do" part of it. We either humble ourselves and repent or we don't. It's not about whether we were carnal men or not? Because we all are/were. It's about whether we were willing to put off the carnal man in favor of a greater reward. That the "what we do" part of it that matters as to "who we are", and they are inseparable.

I don't think we're disagreeing.

I believe there is a concept floating in the air that we both agree on.  But here on the ground, we're looking at that cloud from different angles and are thus describing it differently.

[The Folk Prophet]

Just now, Carborendum said:

I believe there is a concept floating in the air that we both agree on.  But here on the ground, we're looking at that cloud from different angles and are thus describing it differently.

Perhaps. I'm thinking of it from a practical self application approach. I cannot separate who I am from what I do and expect to become who I am meant to be. I must go and do to be.

[Rob Osborn]

48 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said:

I think you're presuming more of an argument than what I'm actually doing. 

My thought is something along these lines:

I don't think we're going to be so much judged on whether we sinned or not as whether we repented or not.

The "who we are" question comes down to whether we'll repent or not (which comes down to humility or not). That is intimately tied to the "what we do" part of it. We either humble ourselves and repent or we don't. It's not about whether we were carnal men or not? Because we all are/were. It's about whether we were willing to put off the carnal man in favor of a greater reward. That the "what we do" part of it that matters as to "who we are", and they are inseparable.

I don't think we're disagreeing.

No person can be saved from eternal hell without repenting. Thats well established in scripture.

[Guest]

49 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said:

Perhaps. I'm thinking of it from a practical self application approach. I cannot separate who I am from what I do and expect to become who I am meant to be. I must go and do to be.

Notice the tense.  We do agree on that point. 

[Rob Osborn]

43 And thus did I, the Lord God, appoint unto man the days of his probation—that by his natural death he might be raised in immortality unto eternal life, even as many as would believe;
            44 And they that believe not unto eternal damnation; for they cannot be redeemed from their spiritual fall, because they repent not;
            45 For they love darkness rather than light, and their deeds are evil, and they receive their wages of whom they list to obey.(D&C 29:43-45)

[Vort]

1 hour ago, The Folk Prophet said:

Perhaps. I'm thinking of it from a practical self application approach. I cannot separate who I am from what I do and expect to become who I am meant to be. I must go and do to be.

On Saturday, my wife and I watched Moana, a 2016 animated Disney flick. I thought I might like it, and I was not disappointed; I enjoyed it even more than I had anticipated.

The best part of Disney animations are the songs, of course. The second-best parts are the nuggets of wisdom they provide along the way. But enough silly stuff gets in there that you have to be a bit discriminating in accepting the nuggets. Wisdom or dog poop? You need to judge on an individual basis. So [SPOILER ALERT] when Moana faces the gigantic evil demon, realizing that it is really just the "Earth Mother" (whatever she was called) whose heart had been ripped out, she says to the monster something like, "You are not defined by what you have done."

I have been wondering since whether that's deep wisdom or dog poop. I leaned toward the latter, but I'm starting to gravitate to the former. Christ's atonement seems to be evidence that God himself doesn't define our worth by our actions. But it leaves me cold, because if our actions don't define us, what is the usefulness of our definition of self?

[The Folk Prophet]

11 minutes ago, Vort said:

Christ's atonement seems to be evidence that God himself doesn't define our worth by our actions. 

I don't think I agree with this. We are defined by our actions (choices). (Rereading...I think injecting the word "worth" in there is a bit of a misdirect).

11 minutes ago, Vort said:

On Saturday, my wife and I watched Moana, a 2016 animated Disney flick. I thought I might like it, and I was not disappointed; I enjoyed it even more than I had anticipated.

The best part of Disney animations are the songs, of course. The second-best parts are the nuggets of wisdom they provide along the way. But enough silly stuff gets in there that you have to be a bit discriminating in accepting the nuggets. Wisdom or dog poop? You need to judge on an individual basis. So [SPOILER ALERT] when Moana faces the gigantic evil demon, realizing that it is really just the "Earth Mother" (whatever she was called) whose heart had been ripped out, she says to the monster something like, "You are not defined by what you have done."

You got it a bit wrong. Here's what she actually says: (sings)

I have crossed the horizon to find you
I know your name
They have stolen the heart from inside you
But this does not define you
This is not who you are
You know who you are
Who you truly are

 

And this is TRULY a nugget of wisdom. Moana is AWESOME!

 

Edited April 17, 2018 by The Folk Prophet

[Rob Osborn]

1 hour ago, Vort said:

I have been wondering since whether that's deep wisdom or dog poop. I leaned toward the latter, but I'm starting to gravitate to the former. Christ's atonement seems to be evidence that God himself doesn't define our worth by our actions. But it leaves me cold, because if our actions don't define us, what is the usefulness of our definition of self?

We are defined by what we become- where we end up at judgment.

 

[zil]

1 hour ago, Vort said:

But it leaves me cold, because if our actions don't define us, what is the usefulness of our definition of self?

Well, clearly you've lost sight of the correct definition of self.  As everyone knows (or used to know, anyway), you are what you eat.

Meanwhile, if you wish to continue pursuing some other misguided definition of self, this may help:
https://www.lds.org/general-conference/2016/04/tomorrow-the-lord-will-do-wonders-among-you?lang=eng

Quote

Please remember tomorrow, and all the days after that, that the Lord blesses those who want to improve, who accept the need for commandments and try to keep them, who cherish Christlike virtues and strive to the best of their ability to acquire them. If you stumble in that pursuit, so does everyone; the Savior is there to help you keep going. If you fall, summon His strength. Call out like Alma, “O Jesus, … have mercy on me.”⁷ He will help you get back up. He will help you repent, repair, fix whatever you have to fix, and keep going. Soon enough you will have the success you seek.

“As you desire of me so it shall be done unto you,” the Lord has declared.

“… Put your trust in that Spirit which leadeth to do good—yea, to do justly, to walk humbly, to judge righteously. …

“… [Then] whatsoever you desire of me [in] righteousness, … you shall receive.”⁸

I love that doctrine! It says again and again that we are going to be blessed for our desire to do good, even as we actually strive to be so.

What we do has an impact on what we desire, and vice versa.  I figure eventually (in some future existence), our desires and actions will settle into harmonious agreement, for good or evil.

[The Folk Prophet]

"...choose carefully. All of you commenced an awesome and vital undertaking when you left the spirit world and entered the stage of mortality. Loving parents made you welcome. Inspired teachers taught you truth. True friends provided counsel. Yet life’s choices remain for each one to make. No choice is insignificant, for we become what we think about. Our choices determine our destiny." Thomas S Monson

Edited April 17, 2018 by The Folk Prophet

[Rob Osborn]

We are judged by who we become. There are some misconceptions about repentance that dont add up though. Some believe that a person can be saved eventually without repenting and turning away from sin. There is a misconception in the belief one can suffer for their own sins and be forgiven without truly repenting. This is a dangerous idea that has no basis in Christ's teachings. I know this is one of the devils many tools to get man into letting others slip through the cracks and into his hands. Its all too easy for us to look at humanity and believe only a top layer of souls will be saved into the Celestisl kingdom and they are who profit from repentance. We believe the vast majority will not accept the gospel and that after suffering for their own sins in spirit prison will be saved. And so, we become or are complacent in viewing our other brothers and sisters in mortality not really having much drive to teach the gospel of repentance and baptism for the remission of sins. Im guilty too. Its easy to not see how miraculous God is in saving all his children, minus those sons of perdition.

A few principle apply-

1. Christ can only save those who repent and are baptized into his church

2. Forgiveness of sins and receiving a remission of sins will only come to those who repent and are baptized

3. True repentance always comes with a change of heart of who one once was into who they are becoming

4. Repentance from sin and forgiveness of those sins is done by covenant and ordinance and obedience to that law

5. If God forgives a sinner it is only because he has become more godly

According to principle and law God will only save those who become "born again" through the atonement unto righteousness. Because of their obedience to the law they can and will be cleansed from all their sin and be dressed in the robes of purity. At judgment they will receive a good reward for their faithfulness and works of salvation (covenants and ordinances). CHRIST WILL SAVE NO OTHER. If we do not repent and become sons and daghters of Righteousness we must be cast into outer darkness. I am oft in wonder at just how far reaching this doctrine is on humanity. I too marvel at how all of Gods children must come to repentance and the waters of baptism and make covenants to be obedient to "all" that God commands in order to be saved. We must become perfect to be saved. And yet I still marvel. Book of Mormon prophets marveled too at this same predicament-

25 And the Lord said unto me: Marvel not that all mankind, yea, men and women, all nations, kindreds, tongues and people, must be born again; yea, born of God, changed from their carnal and fallen state, to a state of righteousness, being redeemed of God, becoming his sons and daughters;
            26 And thus they become new creatures; and unless they do this, they can in nowise inherit the kingdom of God.
            27 I say unto you, unless this be the case, they must be cast off; and this I know, because I was like to be cast off. (Mosiah 27:25-27)

[Traveler]

I have often pondered the final judgment and resurrection.  Many view this as something that G-d does.  For example:  The final judgment is seen as G-d rewarding or condemning each individual according to something innate to G-d and his divine capabilities.  That forgiveness or condemnation is up to G-d and his wisdom. 

The more I have pondered this the more I am convinced such perspective is limited, flawed and inaccurate.    In fact, I am leaning more and more to the idea and concept that G-d has little or perhaps nothing significant to bring to the final judgement – that all factors and determinations are what we bring and determine for ourselves and thus are out of “G-d’s hands”.

I would liken this process of the final judgment to a journey rather than a singular event – some of which takes place in this life and some in the spirit world after this life.  That as a journey we look at maps, talk to other travelers, receive direction from G-d and observe the various signs and landmarks.  Then the final judgment is a welcome to Salt Lake City or Las Vegas or wherever it was that we determined to go.

I have considered many thoughts about how we all end up in one place or another that G-d has predetermined as possible.  I am aware of scripture and how many are determined to interpret such things – But I see all such things as excuses we make to ourselves to justify whatever it is that we think and determine for ourselves. 

I am hard pressed to conclude or imagine that any of us will end up doing things in eternity (after the resurrection and final judgment) that are that much different than what we are already attempting to determine for ourselves here and now.  I do not believe that G-d is determined to force us to be anything other than what we determine for ourselves.  I believe repentance is a process of learning and changing – the scientific definition of intelligence.  I have come to appreciate the wisdom of my father when he said to not fanaticize so much about what we think or think we want to be but to realize that we are today what we have spent our all of our life and eternity up to now becoming.   And if we think to ever become something else we will have to do two things.

#1.  We will have to start doing “things” we have never done before.

#2. We will have to stop doing “things” we have always done before.

 

The Traveler

[Rob Osborn]

16 minutes ago, Traveler said:

I have often pondered the final judgment and resurrection.  Many view this as something that G-d does.  For example:  The final judgment is seen as G-d rewarding or condemning each individual according to something innate to G-d and his divine capabilities.  That forgiveness or condemnation is up to G-d and his wisdom. 

The more I have pondered this the more I am convinced such perspective is limited, flawed and inaccurate.    In fact, I am leaning more and more to the idea and concept that G-d has little or perhaps nothing significant to bring to the final judgement – that all factors and determinations are what we bring and determine for ourselves and thus are out of “G-d’s hands”.

I would liken this process of the final judgment to a journey rather than a singular event – some of which takes place in this life and some in the spirit world after this life.  That as a journey we look at maps, talk to other travelers, receive direction from G-d and observe the various signs and landmarks.  Then the final judgment is a welcome to Salt Lake City or Las Vegas or wherever it was that we determined to go.

I have considered many thoughts about how we all end up in one place or another that G-d has predetermined as possible.  I am aware of scripture and how many are determined to interpret such things – But I see all such things as excuses we make to ourselves to justify whatever it is that we think and determine for ourselves. 

I am hard pressed to conclude or imagine that any of us will end up doing things in eternity (after the resurrection and final judgment) that are that much different than what we are already attempting to determine for ourselves here and now.  I do not believe that G-d is determined to force us to be anything other than what we determine for ourselves.  I believe repentance is a process of learning and changing – the scientific definition of intelligence.  I have come to appreciate the wisdom of my father when he said to not fanaticize so much about what we think or think we want to be but to realize that we are today what we have spent our all of our life and eternity up to now becoming.   And if we think to ever become something else we will have to do two things.

#1.  We will have to start doing “things” we have never done before.

#2. We will have to stop doing “things” we have always done before.

 

The Traveler

I suspose your anaysis is correct with just one modifier-

The path, roadmap, etc, all leads to the same place with the same signs, rules, warnings, etc. Its about getting on that one path leading back home.

[Traveler]

32 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

The path, roadmap, etc, all leads to the same place with the same signs, rules, warnings, etc. Its about getting on that one path leading back home.

 

If this were true - there would be no need for a roadmap, signs, rules, warnings - even a path or for that matter anything else to distinguish anything for anything else.  If there is only one choice to be made - then nothing else matters or can ever make any difference.

 

The Traveler

[Rob Osborn]

11 minutes ago, Traveler said:

 

If this were true - there would be no need for a roadmap, signs, rules, warnings - even a path or for that matter anything else to distinguish anything for anything else.  If there is only one choice to be made - then nothing else matters or can ever make any difference.

 

The Traveler

There are all sorts of maps, signs, roads, etc, out there. All but one however lead men down into perdition. To be saved from all the strange roads going into perdition there is only one path- one exact way and all who enter in do so by the same rules, same covenants, same ordinances. That path leads to one destination- eternal salvation.

[Traveler]

1 hour ago, Rob Osborn said:

There are all sorts of maps, signs, roads, etc, out there. All but one however lead men down into perdition. To be saved from all the strange roads going into perdition there is only one path- one exact way and all who enter in do so by the same rules, same covenants, same ordinances. That path leads to one destination- eternal salvation.

If there are only two possibilities there then it stands to reason that there is only one possible binary choice.  What is that binary choice and - How are you or anyone sure they have made the correct binary choice? or what binary choice has been or to be made?

 

The Traveler

[Rob Osborn]

7 minutes ago, Traveler said:

If there are only two possibilities there then it stands to reason that there is only one possible binary choice.  What is that binary choice and - How are you or anyone sure they have made the correct binary choice? or what binary choice has been or to be made?

 

The Traveler

The binary choice, as Christ mentions, is either repent and be baptized and be found on the right hand of God to receive eternal life, or, remain unrepentant and be found on the left hand of God to be cast out with the devil and his angels into the lake of fire and brimstone. Finding the correct choice is doing works of righteousness- choosing the right. That funnels man inevitably towards the correct and authoritive ordinance of repentance and baptism. Then are you in the path leading to eternal life. There is no other way to be ferreted out and saved from hell.

[wenglund]

On 4/17/2018 at 9:17 AM, Carborendum said:

I believe there is a concept floating in the air that we both agree on.  But here on the ground, we're looking at that cloud from different angles and are thus describing it differently.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[wenglund]

1 hour ago, Rob Osborn said:

The binary choice, as Christ mentions, is either repent and be baptized and be found on the right hand of God to receive eternal life, or, remain unrepentant and be found on the left hand of God to be cast out with the devil and his angels into the lake of fire and brimstone. Finding the correct choice is doing works of righteousness- choosing the right. That funnels man inevitably towards the correct and authoritive ordinance of repentance and baptism. Then are you in the path leading to eternal life. There is no other way to be ferreted out and saved from hell.

So, honorable men, who have done many good works while on earth, but who were deceived by craftiness, and thus weren't valiant in the testimony of Jesus, and don't fully repent and are not baptized, will be judged as the same as Sons of Peridition and those who committed the unforgivable sin--particularly in the tens or hundreds of millions? 

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[Rob Osborn]

5 minutes ago, wenglund said:

So, honorable men, who have done many good works while on earth, but who were deceived by craftiness, and thus weren't valiant in the testimony of Jesus, and don't fully repent and are not baptized, will be judged as the same as Sons of Peridition and those who committed the unforgivable sin--particularly in the tens or hundreds of millions? 

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

If one does not fully repent and get baptized they cannot be saved- cannot be cleansed  through obedience to the "saving ordinances" and thus must be cast out with the devil and his angels. Many think one can be saved from hell eternally without repenting from all their sins. Thats a false doctrine- it absolutely isnt true. One must repent from "all" their sins and be cleansed through obedience to the saving ordinances of which include baptism and gift of the Holy Ghost.

[Rob Osborn]

Christ only saves his herd- those hear his voice and obey. The voice commands us to follow him, to repent and be baptized so that we may be cleansed and purified from all stain, so that we will be found "spotless" at the last day. A person who hasnt fully repented of sins cannot be spotless. 

[Jersey Boy]

On 4/17/2018 at 9:55 AM, Rob Osborn said:

We both agree that the saved have to be washed clean through baptism. The question I have for you is will they thus all be cleansed and spotless? If so, what then prevents them from dwelling in Gods presence?

Do you agree with the fact that we can find forgiveness and have all our sins remitted while in the flesh and yet still have a long way to go before we overcome the world and become perfect? If we can we can have all our sins remitted while living imperfect lives here in mortality, what’s tp prevent God from extending the same forgiveness to the less than perfect resurrected beings who live in the terrestrial and telestial kingdoms of post-resurrection glory?

To answer your question more specifically, I would say there are a number of reasons why there are three degrees of post-resurrection heavenly glory, one of the reasons being that those who demonstrate the requisite faith to live the gospel of Christ in spirit and truth, without being compelled to be humble, will be be given greater rewards in heaven than those who prove to only be willing to come unto Christ after their stubborn wills are subdued in the fires of hell. Remember, God is a rewarder of all those who diligently seek him; meanwhile, God will give lesser rewards to those who demonstrate they are only willing to seek him after  their obstinate wills are subdued in the “winepress of the fierceness od the wrath of almighty God.”

Those who demonstrate greater faith are blessed with greater heavenly rewards. We are all born innocent here on earth through the salvative work of Christ, yet in the Book of Abraham we are told there are those in the pre-earth life who demonstrated greater faith and obedience and they are the ones the Lord calls the noble and great ones; and their works do follow them because they are rewarded on earth for their greater righteousness in the preexistence by being called and foreordained to be the leaders of the Lord’s earthly kingdom. Similarly, those who prove to be the noble and great ones here in mortality will be given the greater reward of celestial glory, while those who prove less proactively faithful will be relegated to either a terrestrial or telestial glory.

You see, I have found a way to harmonize the Book of Mormon and the Doctrine & Covenants without having to resort to heretical teachings that contradict or even discard the revelations of God, the same revelations that to this day are upheld and testified to by the living prophets of God. When I found the seeming contradictions between the plan of salvation presented in the Book of Mormon and the plan of salvation presented in the Doctrine & Covenants, I knew I was going to have to find my answers while leaving all the foundational LDS doctrines of the plan of salvation in tact if I was ever going to find a proper way to resolve those troublesome apparent contradictions — and that’s exactly what I have done. Meanwhile, you find yourself having to reject foundational LDS doctrines, or even reinterpret them, in order to find your answers — not a good idea.

Edited April 18, 2018 by Jersey Boy

[The Folk Prophet]

“‘But,’ says one, ‘I believe in one universal heaven and hell, where all go, and are all alike, and equally miserable or equally happy.’

“What! where all are huddled together—the honorable, virtuous, and murderers, and whoremongers, when it is written that they shall be judged according to the deeds done in the body? But St. Paul informs us of three glories and three heavens."

-Joseph Smith

[Rob Osborn]

1 hour ago, The Folk Prophet said:

“‘But,’ says one, ‘I believe in one universal heaven and hell, where all go, and are all alike, and equally miserable or equally happy.’

“What! where all are huddled together—the honorable, virtuous, and murderers, and whoremongers, when it is written that they shall be judged according to the deeds done in the body? But St. Paul informs us of three glories and three heavens."

-Joseph Smith

So, you must think there are whoremongers in heaven. 

[Rob Osborn]

2 hours ago, Jersey Boy said:

Do you agree with the fact that we can find forgiveness and have all our sins remitted while in the flesh and yet still have a long way to go before we overcome the world and become perfect? If we can we can have all our sins remitted while living imperfect lives here in mortality, what’s tp prevent God from extending the same forgiveness to the less than perfect resurrected beings who live in the terrestrial and telestial kingdoms of post-resurrection glory?

To answer your question more specifically, I would say there are a number of reasons why there are three degrees of post-resurrection heavenly glory, one of the reasons being that those who demonstrate the requisite faith to live the gospel of Christ in spirit and truth, without being compelled to be humble, will be be given greater rewards in heaven than those who prove to only be willing to come unto Christ after their stubborn wills are subdued in the fires of hell. Remember, God is a rewarder of all those who diligently seek him; meanwhile, God will give lesser rewards to those who demonstrate they are only willing to seek him after  their obstinate wills are subdued in the “winepress of the fierceness od the wrath of almighty God.”

Those who demonstrate greater faith are blessed with greater heavenly rewards. We are all born innocent here on earth through the salvative work of Christ, yet in the Book of Abraham we are told there are those in the pre-earth life who demonstrated greater faith and obedience and they are the ones the Lord calls the noble and great ones; and their works do follow them because they are rewarded on earth for their greater righteousness in the preexistence by being called and foreordained to be the leaders of the Lord’s earthly kingdom. Similarly, those who prove to be the noble and great ones here in mortality will be given the greater reward of celestial glory, while those who prove less proactively faithful will be relegated to either a terrestrial or telestial glory.

You see, I have found a way to harmonize the Book of Mormon and the Doctrine & Covenants without having to resort to heretical teachings that contradict or even discard the revelations of God, the same revelations that to this day are upheld and testified to by the living prophets of God. When I found the seeming contradictions between the plan of salvation presented in the Book of Mormon and the plan of salvation presented in the Doctrine & Covenants, I knew I was going to have to find my answers while leaving all the foundational LDS doctrines of the plan of salvation in tact if I was ever going to find a proper way to resolve those troublesome apparent contradictions — and that’s exactly what I have done. Meanwhile, you find yourself having to reject foundational LDS doctrines, or even reinterpret them, in order to find your answers — not a good idea.

Okay, one question. Can you make this scripture fit your paradigm?

27 And the righteous shall be gathered on my right hand unto eternal life; and the wicked on my left hand will I be ashamed to own before the Father;
            28 Wherefore I will say unto them—Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels.