Repentance after death

[Rob Osborn]

27 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said:

The First Presidency have said in answer to a similar question: "We know of no ordinances pertaining to the terrestrial or the telestial kingdom. All of the ordinances of the gospel are given for the salvation of men in the celestial kingdom and pertain unto that kingdom." (Doctrines of Salvation, 2:330)

I believe the above is correct and it goes in hand in hand with the temple in teaching we are now in the telestial kingdom and we will pass into the terrestrial kingdom and then finally gain salvation upon entrance to the celestial kingdom.

[Jersey Boy]

17 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

I find it interesting that in verse 103 of section 76 that it speaks of them as if in their present state or the state they shall be called at that day. We know that a repentant whoremonger can make it to the celestial kingdom. So then, why arent some of the celestial called whoremongers? Its because they repent. Thus, these spoken of in verse 103 obviously do not repent. If they did it would have used the word "were". It would have read like this-

"103 These are they who were liars, and sorcerers, and adulterers, and whoremongers, and whosoever loves and makes a lie."

But no, it doesnt use that language. And because we know even the celestial can have repentant whoremongers, liars, etc, this doesnt mean "all" who "were" classified as such in part or all of their mortal lives. Thus we can determine rather factually that verse 103 is making a statement of their current status in the telestial kingdom or state they will be called at judgment. Thus they are unrepentant at judgment having not accepted the gospel in spirit prison. Thus they come forth in the resurrection of damnation/ resurrection of the unjust, and remain "filthy still" not being justified through Christ unto the cleansing of their souls. It is precisely according to this principle they cannot be saved and, like the scriptures state, must go into the second death. This is why the scriptures state the whoremongers, liars, etc, have their part in the second death. The second death comes only after resurrection and judgment and comes only to the sons of perdition.

The bottom line here is that those spoken of in verse 103 are definitly not repentant at judgment. It is why, when Joseph and Sidney are shown the vision of the inhabitants of the telestial world, that the angel says that this particular group are they who "are" whoremongers, liars, etc. Otherwise the angel would have said they "were".

You are incorrect. The reason why it says they are liars and whoremongers instead of saying that they were these things is because at the time they are suffering the wrath of God on the earth, and then at the time they are cast into the spirit prison, they actually still are liars and whoremongers in the present tense. It isn’t until they spend sufficient time suffering for their sins in the spirit prison, and then go on to embrace the gospel message after being humbled by their sufferings, that it can rightly be said that they were liars and whoremongers. They ARE guilty of being liars and whoremongers until their sufferings in the spirit prison come to an end. It’s only after Christ delivers them from their sufferings and remits their sins that it can rightly be said that they WERE at one time liars and whoremongers.

Please cooperate, otherwise I’m going to call it quits trying to dialogue with you. Instead of beating around the bush, please explain to me why in verse it 106 says that the individuals spoken of in verses 103 to 105  “are they who are cast down to hell and suffer the wrath of Almighty God, UNTIL the fulness of times”? Why is the word “until” used if they are the sons of perdition who are supposed to suffer forever?

 

[zil]

46 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said:

We have nothing to do with the laws of the telestial or terrestrial kingdoms, so far as the preaching of the gospel is concerned. Our mission is to preach the salvation of the kingdom of God, where he and Christ dwell, which is the celestial kingdom. And all of the principles of the gospel which have been given unto us pertain to the celestial kingdom. (Joseph Fielding Smith - Doctrines of Salvation, 2:25-26) 

That.

46 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said:

More from Joseph Fielding Smith

Will those who enter the terrestrial and telestial kingdoms have to have the ordinance of baptism? No! Baptism is the door into the celestial kingdom. The Lord made this clear to Nicodemus. We are not preaching a salvation for the inhabitants of the terrestrial or the telestial kingdoms. All of the ordinances of the gospel pertain to the celestial kingdom, and what the Lord will require by way of ordinances, if any, in the other kingdoms he has not revealed. (Doctrines of Salvation, 2:329)

The First Presidency have said in answer to a similar question: "We know of no ordinances pertaining to the terrestrial or the telestial kingdom. All of the ordinances of the gospel are given for the salvation of men in the celestial kingdom and pertain unto that kingdom." (Doctrines of Salvation, 2:330)

Yeah, that.

[Rob Osborn]

8 minutes ago, Jersey Boy said:

You are incorrect. The reason why it says they are liars and whoremongers instead of saying that they were these things is because at the time they are suffering the wrath of God on the earth, and then at the time they are cast into the spirit prison, they actually still are liars and whoremongers in the present tense. It isn’t until they spend sufficient time suffering for their sins in the spirit prison, and then go on to embrace the gospel message after being humbled by their sufferings, that it can rightly be said that they were liars and whoremongers. They ARE guilty of being liars and whoremongers until their sufferings in the spirit prison come to an end. It’s only after Christ delivers them from their sufferings and remits their sins that it can rightly be said that they WERE at one time liars and whoremongers.

Please cooperate, otherwise I’m going to call it quits trying to dialogue with you. Instead of beating around the bush, please explain to me why in verse it 106 says that the individuals spoken of in verses 103 to 105  “are they who are cast down to hell and suffer the wrath of Almighty God, UNTIL the fulness of times”? Why is the word “until” used if they are the sons of perdition who are supposed to suffer forever?

 

I already quoted a scripture on this in a post a few minutes ago. Go back and read it.

[Rob Osborn]

11 minutes ago, Jersey Boy said:

The reason why it says they are liars and whoremongers instead of saying that they were these things is because at the time they are suffering the wrath of God on the earth, and then at the time they are cast into the spirit prison, they actually still are liars and whoremongers in the present tense

So, does this mean that all liars are destined for the telestial?

[Jersey Boy]

1 hour ago, The Folk Prophet said:

More from Joseph Fielding Smith

Will those who enter the terrestrial and telestial kingdoms have to have the ordinance of baptism? No! Baptism is the door into the celestial kingdom. The Lord made this clear to Nicodemus. We are not preaching a salvation for the inhabitants of the terrestrial or the telestial kingdoms. All of the ordinances of the gospel pertain to the celestial kingdom, and what the Lord will require by way of ordinances, if any, in the other kingdoms he has not revealed. (Doctrines of Salvation, 2:329)

The First Presidency have said in answer to a similar question: "We know of no ordinances pertaining to the terrestrial or the telestial kingdom. All of the ordinances of the gospel are given for the salvation of men in the celestial kingdom and pertain unto that kingdom." (Doctrines of Salvation, 2:330)

This was correct doctrine until D&C 138 was added to the Doctrine and Covenants. Joseph Fielding Smith died before D&C 138 was added to the Standard Works. Here’s what it says...

31 And the chosen messengers went forth to declare the acceptable day of the Lord and proclaim liberty to the captives who were bound, even unto all who would repent of their sins and receive the gospel.

32 Thus was the gospel preached to those who had died in their sins, without a knowledge of the truth, or in transgression, having rejected the prophets.

33 These were taught faith in God, repentance from sin, vicarious baptism for the remission of sins, the gift of the Holy Ghost by the laying on of hands,

34 And all other principles of the gospel that were necessary for them to know in order to qualify themselves that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.

35 And so it was made known among the dead, both small and great, the unrighteous as well as the faithful, that redemption had been wrought through the sacrifice of the Son of God upon the cross. (D&C 138)

And again...

57 I beheld that the faithful elders of this dispensation, when they depart from mortal life, continue their labors in the preaching of the gospel of repentance and redemption, through the sacrifice of the Only Begotten Son of God, among those who are in darkness and under the bondage of sin in the great world of the spirits of the dead.

58 The dead who repent will be redeemed, through obedience to the ordinances of the house of God,

59 And after they have paid the penalty of their transgressions (clearly a reference to the inheritors of the Telestial Kingdom who suffer for their sins in the spirit prison) and are washed clean, shall receive a reward according to their works, for they are heirs of salvation. (D&C 138)

 

 

Edited April 17, 2018 by Jersey Boy

[Jersey Boy]

17 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

So, does this mean that all liars are destined for the telestial?

Not unless unless they repent so that if they are now are liars they will no longer be liars. And i’m sure that many former liars will be found inhabiting all three kingdoms of glory.

[Jersey Boy]

23 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

I already quoted a scripture on this in a post a few minutes ago. Go back and read it.

Unless I missed something, you never specifically addressed why it says they will suffer “UNTIL” a specific point in time. Please address this specific point.

[Rob Osborn]

3 minutes ago, Jersey Boy said:

Not unless unless they repent so that if they are now are liars they will no longer be liars. And i’m sure that many former liars will be found inhabiting all three kingdoms of glory.

Sounds rather confusing. I think we both agree that all must repent and be baptized. Im just not sure the ones spoken of in verse 103 ever repent. I look at the ones spoken of in verse 103 as the very same ones spoken of in Revelations-

"8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death." (Rev 21:8)

Obviously others in our church thought the same as they crossreferenced verse 103 directly to this verse. Are they not the same group?

 

2 minutes ago, Jersey Boy said:

Unless I missed something, you never specifically addressed why it says they will suffer “UNTIL” a specific point in time. Please address this specific point.

I addressed this in the post where I quoted Mormon ch. 9-

12 Behold, he created Adam, and by Adam came the fall of man. And because of the fall of man came Jesus Christ, even the Father and the Son; and because of Jesus Christ came the redemption of man.
            13 And because of the redemption of man, which came by Jesus Christ, they are brought back into the presence of the Lord; yea, this is wherein all men are redeemed, because the death of Christ bringeth to pass the resurrection, which bringeth to pass a redemption from an endless sleep, from which sleep all men shall be awakened by the power of God when the trump shall sound; and they shall come forth, both small and great, and all shall stand before his bar, being redeemed and loosed from this eternal band of death, which death is a temporal death.
            14 And then cometh the judgment of the Holy One upon them; and then cometh the time that he that is filthy shall be filthy still; and he that is righteous shall be righteous still; he that is happy shall be happy still; and he that is unhappy shall be unhappy still.

They suffer until God redeems with the resurrection and brings them back into his presence to be judged. Then they are judged and those found guilty are cast out and suffer the second death. In this case they are still found guilty and are cast out into the second death.

[Rob Osborn]

Also this scripture from Alma 40-

14 Now this is the state of the souls of the wicked, yea, in darkness, and a state of awful, fearful looking for the fiery indignation of the wrath of God upon them; thus they remain in this state, as well as the righteous in paradise, until the time of their resurrection. (italics mine)

[Jersey Boy]

9 hours ago, Rob Osborn said:

Sounds rather confusing. I think we both agree that all must repent and be baptized. Im just not sure the ones spoken of in verse 103 ever repent. I look at the ones spoken of in verse 103 as the very same ones spoken of in Revelations-

"8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death." (Rev 21:8)

Obviously others in our church thought the same as they crossreferenced verse 103 directly to this verse. Are they not the same group?

 

I addressed this in the post where I quoted Mormon ch. 9-

12 Behold, he created Adam, and by Adam came the fall of man. And because of the fall of man came Jesus Christ, even the Father and the Son; and because of Jesus Christ came the redemption of man.
            13 And because of the redemption of man, which came by Jesus Christ, they are brought back into the presence of the Lord; yea, this is wherein all men are redeemed, because the death of Christ bringeth to pass the resurrection, which bringeth to pass a redemption from an endless sleep, from which sleep all men shall be awakened by the power of God when the trump shall sound; and they shall come forth, both small and great, and all shall stand before his bar, being redeemed and loosed from this eternal band of death, which death is a temporal death.
            14 And then cometh the judgment of the Holy One upon them; and then cometh the time that he that is filthy shall be filthy still; and he that is righteous shall be righteous still; he that is happy shall be happy still; and he that is unhappy shall be unhappy still.

They suffer until God redeems with the resurrection and brings them back into his presence to be judged. Then they are judged and those found guilty are cast out and suffer the second death. In this case they are still found guilty and are cast out into the second death.

It only sounds confusing to you because you have rejected and declared as false doctrine that which is among some of the most fundamental doctrines of the Church, that being the three heavenly kingdoms of post- resurrection glory. My understanding of the plan of salvation includes the three degrees of glory and keeps that teaching firmly in its rightful place. In order to embrace your understanding of the plan of salvation, one must embrace heretical teachings and believe in another gospel not taught by any of the past or present general authorities of the restored church. 

Read the following verses from D&C 138 and you will see that baptism and the laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost is a requirement for all those who receive an inheritance in either the celestial, terrestrial or telestial kingdoms of post-resurrection glory:

31 And the chosen messengers went forth to declare the acceptable day of the Lord and proclaim liberty to the captives who were bound, even unto all who would repent of their sins and receive the gospel.

32 Thus was the gospel preached to those who had died in their sins, without a knowledge of the truth, or in transgression, having rejected the prophets.

33 These were taught faith in God, repentance from sin, vicarious baptism for the remission of sins, the gift of the Holy Ghost by the laying on of hands,

34 And all other principles of the gospel that were necessary for them to know in order to qualify themselves that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.

35 And so it was made known among the dead, both small and great, the unrighteous as well as the faithful, that redemption had been wrought through the sacrifice of the Son of God upon the cross. (D&C 138)

And again...

57 I beheld that the faithful elders of this dispensation, when they depart from mortal life, continue their labors in the preaching of the gospel of repentance and redemption, through the sacrifice of the Only Begotten Son of God, among those who are in darkness and under the bondage of sin in the great world of the spirits of the dead.

58 The dead who repent will be redeemed, through obedience to the ordinances of the house of God,

59 And after they have paid the penalty of their transgressions (clearly a reference to the inheritors of the Telestial Kingdom who suffer for their sins in the spirit prison) and ARE WASHED CLEAN, shall receive a reward according to their works, for they are heirs of salvation. (D&C 138)

 

 

 

Edited April 17, 2018 by Jersey Boy

[Jersey Boy]

9 hours ago, Rob Osborn said:

Also this scripture from Alma 40-

14 Now this is the state of the souls of the wicked, yea, in darkness, and a state of awful, fearful looking for the fiery indignation of the wrath of God upon them; thus they remain in this state, as well as the righteous in paradise, until the time of their resurrection. (italics mine)

There you go making unwarranted word associations again. You fail to realize that the only individuals who will be found in the spirit prison at the time of the final judgement will be the sons of perdition who remain filthy still. All the other onetime inhabitants of the spirit prison, those who have allowed themselves to be subdued by the love and salvative work of Christ, will have passed over into paradise by the time of the final judgement. Just because two verses of scripture may contain some of the same words doesn’t necessarily mean they are speaking to the same principle.

You also fail to realize that the portion of the narrative concerning the inheritors of the telestial kingdom that begins in verse 103 doesn’t end until verse 112. 

107 When he shall deliver up the kingdom, and present it unto the Father, spotless, saying: I have overcome and have trodden the wine-press alone, even the wine-press of the fierceness of the wrath of Almighty God.

108 Then shall he be crowned with the crown of his glory, to sit on the throne of his power to reign forever and ever.

109 But behold, and lo, we saw the glory and the inhabitants of the telestial world, that they were as innumerable as the stars in the firmament of heaven, or as the sand upon the seashore;

110 And heard the voice of the Lord saying: These all shall bow the knee, and every tongue shall confess to him who sits upon the throne forever and ever;

111 For they shall be judged according to their works, and every man shall receive according to his own works, his own dominion, in the mansions which are prepared;

112 And they shall be servants of the Most High; but where God and Christ dwell they cannot come, worlds without end. (D&C 76)

A very important question for you to consider: How can the individuals spoken of in verse 112 be saved in the celestial kingdom if “where God and Christ dwell they cannot come, worlds without end”?

[The Folk Prophet]

The fact that baptism is a requirement for the Celestial Kingdom, that Jesus taught that no man may enter the kingdom of God (Celestial Kingdom) without being born of the water, is entirely irrelevant to the reality that those who end up in the Telestial and Terrestrial kingdoms might also have the need of baptism.

I believe Rob is partially correct when he says "This was correct doctrine until D&C 138 was added to the Doctrine and Covenants. Joseph Fielding Smith died before D&C 138 was added to the Standard Works. Here’s what it says..."

But only partially correct, because D&C 138, theoretically, added the understanding that all those who are saved in the Telestial And Terrestrial kingdoms must be washed clean by the ordinances of the gospel, which is added knowledge, but does not supplant the reality that we perform the ordinances that men who otherwise qualify may enter the Celestial Kingdom and the Celestial Kingdom alone. We do not perform them in hopes of men attaining lower kingdoms.

The scriptures teach that there are other qualifications for Celestial glory than just being washed clean by baptism. These other qualifications may be summarized in the phrase "endure to the end". The idea that those who attain Telestial and Terrestrial glory must confess that Jesus is the Christ, be washed clean and repent, does not mean they endured to the end.

Clearly if they must pay the penalty of their own transgressions then the "washing clean" that it speaks of is not in the same category as repentance which brings about the full power of the Atonement, by which Christ paid the penalty of our transgressions.

[Rob Osborn]

1 hour ago, Jersey Boy said:

It only sounds confusing to you because you have rejected and declared as false doctrine that which is among some of the most fundamental doctrines of the Church, that being the three heavenly kingdoms of post- resurrection glory. My understanding of the plan of salvation includes the three degrees of glory and keeps that teaching firmly in its rightful place. In order to embrace your understanding of the plan of salvation, one must embrace heretical teachings and believe in another gospel not taught by any of the past or present general authorities of the restored church. 

Read the following verses from D&C 138 and you will see that baptism and the laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost is a requirement for all those who receive an inheritance in either the celestial, terrestrial or telestial kingdoms of post-resurrection glory:

31 And the chosen messengers went forth to declare the acceptable day of the Lord and proclaim liberty to the captives who were bound, even unto all who would repent of their sins and receive the gospel.

32 Thus was the gospel preached to those who had died in their sins, without a knowledge of the truth, or in transgression, having rejected the prophets.

33 These were taught faith in God, repentance from sin, vicarious baptism for the remission of sins, the gift of the Holy Ghost by the laying on of hands,

34 And all other principles of the gospel that were necessary for them to know in order to qualify themselves that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.

35 And so it was made known among the dead, both small and great, the unrighteous as well as the faithful, that redemption had been wrought through the sacrifice of the Son of God upon the cross. (D&C 138)

And again...

57 I beheld that the faithful elders of this dispensation, when they depart from mortal life, continue their labors in the preaching of the gospel of repentance and redemption, through the sacrifice of the Only Begotten Son of God, among those who are in darkness and under the bondage of sin in the great world of the spirits of the dead.

58 The dead who repent will be redeemed, through obedience to the ordinances of the house of God,

59 And after they have paid the penalty of their transgressions (clearly a reference to the inheritors of the Telestial Kingdom who suffer for their sins in the spirit prison) and ARE WASHED CLEAN, shall receive a reward according to their works, for they are heirs of salvation. (D&C 138)

 

 

 

 

We both agree that the saved have to be washed clean through baptism. The question I have for you is will they thus all be cleansed and spotless? If so, what then prevents them from dwelling in Gods presence?

[Rob Osborn]

31 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said:

The fact that baptism is a requirement for the Celestial Kingdom, that Jesus taught that no man may enter the kingdom of God (Celestial Kingdom) without being born of the water, is entirely irrelevant to the reality that those who end up in the Telestial and Terrestrial kingdoms might also have the need of baptism.

I believe Rob is partially correct when he says "This was correct doctrine until D&C 138 was added to the Doctrine and Covenants. Joseph Fielding Smith died before D&C 138 was added to the Standard Works. Here’s what it says..."

But only partially correct, because D&C 138, theoretically, added the understanding that all those who are saved in the Telestial And Terrestrial kingdoms must be washed clean by the ordinances of the gospel, which is added knowledge, but does not supplant the reality that we perform the ordinances that men who otherwise qualify may enter the Celestial Kingdom and the Celestial Kingdom alone. We do not perform them in hopes of men attaining lower kingdoms.

The scriptures teach that there are other qualifications for Celestial glory than just being washed clean by baptism. These other qualifications may be summarized in the phrase "endure to the end". The idea that those who attain Telestial and Terrestrial glory must confess that Jesus is the Christ, be washed clean and repent, does not mean they endured to the end.

Clearly if they must pay the penalty of their own transgressions then the "washing clean" that it speaks of is not in the same category as repentance which brings about the full power of the Atonement, by which Christ paid the penalty of our transgressions.

I disagree. What do you suspect the terrestrial heirs are doing on the earth for a thousand years with Christ? Is that not "enduring"?

The wickid in spirit prison are taught repentance-

33 These were taught faith in God, repentance from sin, vicarious baptism for the remission of sins, the gift of the Holy Ghost by the laying on of hands,
            34 And all other principles of the gospel that were necessary for them to know in order to qualify themselves that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit. (D&C 138)

Thus, through repentance and vicarious baptism they are washed clean through the power of the atonement, the same as any other. The penalty demanded of them in spirit prison is part of their repentance. Suffering doesnt cleanse though. Only through the atonement of Christ and repentance and baptism is one cleansed. And if cleansed- completely cleansed.

[Rob Osborn]

1 hour ago, Jersey Boy said:

There you go making unwarranted word associations again. You fail to realize that the only individuals who will be found in the spirit prison at the time of the final judgement will be the sons of perdition who remain filthy still. All the other onetime inhabitants of the spirit prison, those who have allowed themselves to be subdued by the love and salvative work of Christ, will have passed over into paradise by the time of the final judgement. Just because two verses of scripture may contain some of the same words doesn’t necessarily mean they are speaking to the same principle.

You also fail to realize that the portion of the narrative concerning the inheritors of the telestial kingdom that begins in verse 103 doesn’t end until verse 112. 

107 When he shall deliver up the kingdom, and present it unto the Father, spotless, saying: I have overcome and have trodden the wine-press alone, even the wine-press of the fierceness of the wrath of Almighty God.

108 Then shall he be crowned with the crown of his glory, to sit on the throne of his power to reign forever and ever.

109 But behold, and lo, we saw the glory and the inhabitants of the telestial world, that they were as innumerable as the stars in the firmament of heaven, or as the sand upon the seashore;

110 And heard the voice of the Lord saying: These all shall bow the knee, and every tongue shall confess to him who sits upon the throne forever and ever;

111 For they shall be judged according to their works, and every man shall receive according to his own works, his own dominion, in the mansions which are prepared;

112 And they shall be servants of the Most High; but where God and Christ dwell they cannot come, worlds without end. (D&C 76)

A very important question for you to consider: How can the individuals spoken of in verse 112 be saved in the celestial kingdom if “where God and Christ dwell they cannot come, worlds without end”?

Part of my answer relys upon whether or not you believe the ones spoken of in both 76:103 & Rev. 21:8 are the same people. Do you believe they are the same group?

[Guest]

On 4/16/2018 at 12:36 AM, lostinwater said:

Let's say the person feels genuine regret for what they did.  Is the hangup that "a few" stripes isn't sufficient? What if "a few" were instead "many"?  Would there be a point where they'd suffered enough?  Or does a person who is likened to a toddler in comparison to God who screws up - however you define that - for a period of time that in the eternal perspective i've heard likened to the blink of an eye - need to be thrown into the dungeons of hell, or some degree thereof, with the key being thrown away - there to remain amidst their regrets and desires to change?  

i mean, if you have a baby girl that whacks her sibling over the head with a block, you put her in a time-out.  But you don't give up on her - especially if that girl has not given up on herself.  Is God different in that regard?  

i don't know - it honestly doesn't make sense to me.  i respect if it does to others - this isn't meant to be an argument.  Or maybe i'm not understanding what everyone else is saying.  

From the perspective that our eternal destiny is about who we are rather than what we've done, that doesn't really make any sense.  Jesus paid for our sins.  Our part is having faith in Christ, continually repenting of our sins, making covenants, receiving the Holy Ghost and enduring to the end.

I believe there may be some chance for repentance after death, but prior to the resurrection (and there are hints at this in the Book of Mormon).  The reason the progression between kingdoms doesn't make sense to me is that that essentially says there are no degrees of glory (that each surpass all understanding).  Well, that would be quite the waste of space to have two entire sections of the D&C that talk specifically about them.

[The Folk Prophet]

15 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

From the perspective that our eternal destiny is about who we are rather than what we've done, 

How can these things be separated?

[Traveler]

19 hours ago, Rob Osborn said:

You are going to have to clarify. It appears we are talkibg about two different things.

 

I am glad that you agree that we are talking about two very different “things”.   The question I posted was: if you believe that any, once spiritual child of G-d, will at any time (especially after the final judgment) not be subject to rules, laws, justice or authority of G-d? 

Your response was a scripture in Ephesians 5:5 that I did not think answered the question or even recognized the basic elements of the question.  I thought to clarify your response but I agree – you seem to be on a tangent that has little if anything to do with the question.  If you would rather not address the question – I will not attempt to understand what you are trying to respond to.

 

The Traveler

[Guest]

3 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said:

How can these things be separated?

Repentance is not just an act.  It is a change in being.  AFTER repentance, the person you are did (past tense) sin.  But the person you are will no longer (regarding the same sin).

Yes, the change can be reversed.  But just work with it.

[The Folk Prophet]

1 minute ago, Carborendum said:

Repentance is not just an act.  It is a change in being.  AFTER repentance, the person you are did (past tense) sin.  But the person you are will no longer (regarding the same sin).

Yes, the change can be reversed.  But just work with it.

Maybe I should have stated it, how can these things be FULLY separated?

After all...repentance is a thing that we have done or not done.

[Guest]

Just now, The Folk Prophet said:

Maybe I should have stated it, how can these things be FULLY separated?

After all...repentance is a thing that we have done or not done.

I don't really understand what you're getting at with the "fully".  I'm only telling you stuff you already know.  But to answer your questions, I'll have to retread this worn ground. 

Remember that my original statement was "who we are vs. what we've done."  Notice the present vs the past tense.  When I think of repentance, I see it as a change in being and attitude.  But the most important part is asking for the power of the Atonement to change us into something better. Yes, it is something we do.  My point is that, like being saved, is a process rather than a single action.

We're brought to the judgment bar to be judged of our works (whether they be good or evil).  If that is so, what is the Atonement for?  To cleanse us from sin.  Or, if you prefer, to justfiy and sanctify us.  I don't believe it means that the sins never happened.  They did.  That's a fact.  But when justified and sanctified, we have undergone a change so that we are no longer the person we once were.  We're not the person who committed those sins.  That change is something that is beyond mortality.  That is why we need the Atonement.

That is why the sins of the past can be wiped clean from the person we are in the present.

[Rob Osborn]

21 minutes ago, Traveler said:

 

I am glad that you agree that we are talking about two very different “things”.   The question I posted was: if you believe that any, once spiritual child of G-d, will at any time (especially after the final judgment) not be subject to rules, laws, justice or authority of G-d? 

Your response was a scripture in Ephesians 5:5 that I did not think answered the question or even recognized the basic elements of the question.  I thought to clarify your response but I agree – you seem to be on a tangent that has little if anything to do with the question.  If you would rather not address the question – I will not attempt to understand what you are trying to respond to.

 

The Traveler

Whatever...moving on.

[Rob Osborn]

18 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said:

Maybe I should have stated it, how can these things be FULLY separated?

After all...repentance is a thing that we have done or not done.

If a person is cleansed from their sins then what they did which was bad cant be brought up anymore ad Christ remembers them no more. At tglhat point a person who is cleansed can only be judged by their "good" works.

[The Folk Prophet]

4 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

I don't really understand what you're getting at with the "fully".  I'm only telling you stuff you already know.  But to answer your questions, I'll have to retread this worn ground. 

Remember that my original statement was "who we are vs. what we've done."  Notice the present vs the past tense.  When I think of repentance, I see it as a change in being and attitude.  But the most important part is asking for the power of the Atonement to change us into something better. Yes, it is something we do.  My point is that, like being saved, is a process rather than a single action.

We're brought to the judgment bar to be judged of our works (whether they be good or evil).  If that is so, what is the Atonement for?  To cleanse us from sin.  Or, if you prefer, to justfiy and sanctify us.  I don't believe it means that the sins never happened.  They did.  That's a fact.  But when justified and sanctified, we have undergone a change so that we are no longer the person we once were.  We're not the person who committed those sins.  That change is something that is beyond mortality.  That is why we need the Atonement.

That is why the sins of the past can be wiped clean from the person we are in the present.

I think you're presuming more of an argument than what I'm actually doing. 

My thought is something along these lines:

I don't think we're going to be so much judged on whether we sinned or not as whether we repented or not.

The "who we are" question comes down to whether we'll repent or not (which comes down to humility or not). That is intimately tied to the "what we do" part of it. We either humble ourselves and repent or we don't. It's not about whether we were carnal men or not? Because we all are/were. It's about whether we were willing to put off the carnal man in favor of a greater reward. That the "what we do" part of it that matters as to "who we are", and they are inseparable.

I don't think we're disagreeing.