Repentance after death

[Rob Osborn]

1 hour ago, The Folk Prophet said:

Right....so line upon line with repentance after death...but what was said about damnation and salvation was final and no further understanding is allowed.

Double standard much?

A Book of Mormon! A Book of Mormon! We have got a Book of Mormon!

You just dont get it, just dont get it. I will explain later when I have a few hours to lay the principles of it out.

[estradling75]

Sigh...  the things of God are foolishness to those that reject the light and knowledge of God.

We see this with the Atheist and Non Christian who say the bible is contradictory and makes no sense.  If you try to resolve this issue they will cling to their personal interpretation of scripture and if you try to show that other interpretations are possible they they will accuse you of claiming God is a liar. (or call you a liar)

This also happens with other Christians when it comes to the Book of Mormon, they will claim contradiction and refuse any other explanation.

This also happens to otherwise "faithful" members of the church who allow themselves to be distracted by gospel "Hobbies" to the point that everything revolves around their pet topic.

Normally I find that in engaging with such to be futile.  They have made their choices as is their God given right.  However Mormon Hub is a "Pro LDS church and its Leaders Site" and we make no apologies for it.  We attract all kinds here and it behooves us to make it very clear what the church and its leaders do teach on the matter how there is not a contradiction for those who have ears to hear.

So lets talk about the dead and repentance.

In the bible Peter 4: 6 we read https://www.lds.org/scriptures/nt/1-pet/4.6?lang=eng#p5

6 For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.

Now without further light and knowledge one could debate what this scripture means about the dead being preached the gospel so they might be judged and live.

But we have further light and knowledge we do not need to debate what this means... We are told in Doctrine and Covenants 138 https://www.lds.org/scriptures/dc-testament/dc/138?lang=eng

I will summarize it here.  After Christ died on the Cross he went to where all the dead go.  While there he organized, authorized, and empowered, missionary forces to "preach also to them that are dead" as the scriptures describe.  The only thing it makes any since for Christ would have them preach is his doctrine of Faith, Repentance, Baptism, Gift of the Holy Ghost and enduring to the end.  It makes no sense for Christ to have them teach anything else.  It also makes no sense for Christ to have them teach anything that they can not do..   ie it makes no sense to teach and command people to repent if they can not repent.

This of course appears to be in contradiction to the how @RemnantofJoseph interpreted and would have us understand the scriptures he quoted.  Because for him he has rejected modern Revelation given to the church in Section 138 and that drives our work for the Dead in the temples, thus it is foolishness to him.

Now @Rob Osborn has pointed out that until Jesus died there was no missionary work going on among the dead, thus at the time it was written the Book of Mormon statement were correct, but then Christ changed things.  This is like saying that the Law of Moses was correct and of God, but we don't have to obey it any more.  It is completely valid.

But I would like to dig even deeper.  Many of the scriptures in question talk about "Mortal Probation"   During this mortal probation we are being "Proven to see if we will do all things the Lord command" Per Abraham 3:25.   What is the span of our "Mortal Probation?" The quick off the cuff answer is from birth to death.  This answer is wrong and we see that this answer is wrong the moment the Dead get preached to and have the choice to exercise faith unto salvation.

When this is understood then it becomes clear that the "Mortal Probation" talked about in the Book of Mormon begins at birth... passes through death and continues until the Resurrection/Judgement.  With this expanded definition of "Mortal Probation" the scriptures in the Book of Mormon remain just as true as the day they were given.  Thus the bulk of the scripture he used to support his false beliefs simply do not mean what he thinks they mean to people who have and understand the Greater light and knowledge.

Now what about those scriptures that explicitly call out death being the end point?   Joseph Smith once said that if we want to understand the scriptures we have to understand what questions the scriptures are addressing.  Or to put it in other words we have to understand the context the Prophet is speaking in.

Are prophets in the quoted scriptures speaking to those that have already died?  Of course not it makes no sense for a prophet to try to warn people about events that it is to late for.  Are they speaking to potential converts?  While the Book Of Mormon does speak to those in many cases they are not during these times.  In the case of all the quoted scriptures the prophets of God are addressing the Living and Currently believing membership who are struggling.

One of the things the scripture are very clear on is the danger/sin of procrastination.  When we are given a little Light and Truth we are expected to ACT on it.  If we act we are given more if we do not act it is taken away.   This is directly related to the purpose of our Mortal Probation.  The timing of of getting this little of Light and Truth is in the hands of the Lord.  Some people get it while alive other after they die.

On of the dangers of gaining Light and Truth while alive is the attraction of Sins of the Flesh.  It is so easy to think I have have my sin and repent later and everything will be ok.  It was true in the Book of Mormon time and it is true today.  Alma the Younger had a long talk with his son about this very temptation.   And he explains very clearly that the spirits that control us in this life will continue to have power after we die.

Thus the person that sins but exercises Faith unto Repentance while alive will continue to sin but exercise Faith unto repentance after they die.  While those that procrastinate their faith and repentance in life will continue to do so after death until it becomes everlastingly to late at the judgement/resurrection.

Thus the notion that some of the faithful have that we will do something after we die that we would not do while alive is what those scripture are trying to warn and forewarn against.  Our death will not trigger a coming to Jesus conversion, but rather will we continue our thoughts, actions, attitude and beliefs that we had while alive.  Either to our condemnation or to our glory

 

 

Edited April 13, 2018 by estradling75
typo

[The Folk Prophet]

32 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

You just dont get it, just dont get it. I will explain later when I have a few hours to lay the principles of it out.

Don't bother.

Ignore mode on.

[The Folk Prophet]

3 minutes ago, estradling75 said:

they they will accuse you of claiming God is a lier. (or call you a lier)

I have no personal experience with this.

Oh...wait....

 

[Lost Boy]

I believe God to be a God of love.  He loves his creations and wants the best for them.  As such I cannot envision a scenario where he creates offspring and puts them in situations where by the very nature of the condition they are born in essentially turns them into bad people.  And then they die.  And with no repentance after this life they would be damned.   I just don't see God doing something like this.  There is no logic behind it and I find God's plan to be very logical as well.

It only makes sense that there has to be room for repentance after we leave mortal life.

I often contemplate on the fate of those that go to the telestial and terrestrial kingdoms.  Do souls really stop there?  Stopped for all eternity?  No birth? no death?  Or is there room in the Gospel for some sort of reincarnation where souls that do not make the celestial kingdom are reborn again into the telestial kingdom for them to be refined some more?  And redo the process until they are refined into celestial beings?  As far as I know there is not much known about what happens in these lesser kingdoms.

Does a God that truly loves his creations want them to stop there?  I don't know.

What I do know is that he wants us to become more like him to the best of our abilities in this life.  Chances are most of us will fall way short.  This is where the atonement comes in.

I hope that the telestial and terrestrial kingdoms aren't just the end of the road and something tells me that they aren't, but at the same time I know that those are not my objective either.  And that focusing on a celestial life is what I should be doing.

[The Folk Prophet]

@estradling75, I like your post, but...I believe a safer answer would be as follows:

We don't really know for sure how it works after death. We know that those who haven't had the opportunity to accept the gospel will be given that opportunity through work for the dead. We know that their reward will not be diminished by their inability to have the gospel given to them in life.

Beyond that, we know that the prophets have preached, and continue to preach, that we should not put off our repentance and that if we do so it may be too late.

Russel M. Nelson phrased it thus: "...now is the time to prepare to meet God. Tomorrow may be too late. Prophets through the ages have so declared: “This life is the time for men to prepare to meet God. … Do not procrastinate the day of your repentance.” (emphasis mine)

I think this is the only real answer. We don't know for sure if after death we will be have the opportunity for repentance if we didn't take advantage of the opportunity in this life.

What we do know is that we have been warned to not procrastinate, and that it may be too late when we die.

I don't, personally, believe there's some sort of line upon line process that contradicts prior understanding. (Edit: This may need some further explanation...by "contradicts" I mean "renders it wrong".) I do not believe that when the prophets said "this life" that they secretly meant after this life is over too. I do not believe our mortal probation references the spirit world too. But I accept that these ideas may be the case.

Regardless, it doesn't matter. The idea that matters is repent and repent now...before it's too late. Beyond that I think we run the risk of causing confusion and misunderstanding because we're trying to understand things that we cannot.

Elder Eyring addresses this idea I think in the following:

"Because we need the Holy Ghost, we must be cautious and careful not to go beyond teaching true doctrine. The Holy Ghost is the Spirit of Truth. His confirmation is invited by our avoiding speculation or personal interpretation. That can be hard to do. You love the person you are trying to influence. He or she may have ignored the doctrine they have been taught. It is tempting to try something new or sensational. But we invite the Holy Ghost as our companion when we are careful to teach only true doctrine.

One of the surest ways to avoid even getting near false doctrine is to choose to be simple in our teaching. Safety is gained by that simplicity, and little is lost."

Edited April 13, 2018 by The Folk Prophet

[estradling75]

3 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said:

@estradling75, I like your post, but...I believe a safer answer would be as follows:

I have no problem with that...  I used scriptures and my own opinions based on what seems logical...   That last bit is always problematic.  But the bottom line is Greater Light and Knowledge does not invalidate what went before but neither can it be contained by the lesser that went before.

 

[Rob Osborn]

I would like to make a request. TFP, and others, Is it possible to not make every thread a personal vendetta against me? I would like to comment on things and not have people constantly attacking me everytime I post something.

[The Folk Prophet]

2 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

I would like to make a request. TFP, and others, Is it possible to not make every thread a personal vendetta against me? I would like to comment on things and not have people constantly attacking me everytime I post something.

Then don't post false doctrine. It's not a personal vendetta. There's nothing personal about it. It has nothing to do with YOU. It has everything to do with what you are trying to teach.

But don't worry. I'm in ignore mode on you now.

[Rob Osborn]

Just now, The Folk Prophet said:

Then don't post false doctrine. It's not a personal vendetta. There's nothing personal about it. It has nothing to do with YOU. It has everything to do with what you are trying to teach.

But don't worry. I'm in ignore mode on you now.

please, i beg of you, ignore me. For crying out loud, THANKYOU!!!

[The Folk Prophet]

2 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

please, i beg of you, ignore me. For crying out loud, THANKYOU!!!

I'll still post the teachings of our living prophets and apostles. Since you take that as a personal attack every time I do I expect you'll continue to feel attacked.

[Rob Osborn]

31 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said:

I'll still post the teachings of our living prophets and apostles. Since you take that as a personal attack every time I do I expect you'll continue to feel attacked.

And I will still post scriptures. So then, we all good?

[Rob Osborn]

I was going to post and add a little bit more before things got sidetracked.

In the Book of Mormon they did not have the knowledge of several points regarding the afterlife. Nevertheless, their doctrine regarding salvation and damnation was and is still valid as in the end everyone must be changed, born again unto righteousness through repentance and baptism to be saved. It wasnt until Joseph F. Smith revealed more on that now found as section 138 that declares repentance and "works" are available for the dead for both the ignorant sinners, and those who rejected it in mortality but then had a change of heart in the spirit prison. The clarifying part of this doctrine, and its something most miss, is that its through obedience to the laws and ordinances of the gospel that qualifies them for salvation. This isnt just for some but "all" of the wicked. Its in this light that places the stamp of approval on previous doctrine in regards to everyone must be baptized to be saved from hell eternally. This is the law. God will not, nor cannot, save any soul who has not repented of all of his sins and entered into the waters of baptism so that he may be cleansed and born again unto righteousness becoming a son of God.

[The Folk Prophet]

“If men would acquire salvation, they have got to be subject, before they leave this world, to certain rules and principles, which were fixed by an unalterable decree before the world was. … The organization of the spiritual and heavenly worlds, and of spiritual and heavenly beings, was agreeable to the most perfect order and harmony: their limits and bounds were fixed irrevocably, and voluntarily subscribed to in their heavenly estate by themselves, and were by our first parents subscribed to upon the earth. Hence the importance of embracing and subscribing to principles of eternal truth by all men upon the earth that expect eternal life.” - Joseph Smith

[Rob Osborn]

1 hour ago, The Folk Prophet said:

“If men would acquire salvation, they have got to be subject, before they leave this world, to certain rules and principles, which were fixed by an unalterable decree before the world was.

I wonder what he was referring to. This in light of the fact that more than 99% of the worlds population probably never had an opportunity to receive or have that knowlege while in mortality.

Edited April 13, 2018 by Rob Osborn

[The Folk Prophet]

Just now, Rob Osborn said:

I wondrr what he wad referring to in tge part I undrrlined in bold? This in light of the fact that more than 99% of the worlds population probably never had an opportunity to receive or have that knowlege while in mortality.

I wonder as well. I thought it was interesting.

My take: Actually sort of in line with some of @Traveler's ideas (surprise!) that we made covenants (or something akin) that were individual to ourselves prior to coming here and based on who we were, who we would be, and what opportunities we would have, and we will be accountable for that.

Of course that's total speculation.

[Vort]

6 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said:

9 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

1 hour ago, The Folk Prophet said:

“If men would acquire salvation, they have got to be subject, before they leave this world, to certain rules and principles, which were fixed by an unalterable decree before the world was.

I wonder what he was referring to. This in light of the fact that more than 99% of the worlds population probably never had an opportunity to receive or have that knowlege while in mortality.

I wonder as well. I thought it was interesting.

My take: Actually sort of in line with some of @Traveler's ideas (surprise!) that we made covenants (or something akin) that were individual to ourselves prior to coming here and based on who we were, who we would be, and what opportunities we would have, and we will be accountable for that.

Of course that's total speculation.

At the risk of, well, taking a risk, I agree (in a narrow sense) with Rob. To some degree, "this world" and "this life" must extend past death. None achieve perfection in this life, and I would suspect that even the best among us will die not having achieved what we set out for. This is not the same as dying in one's sins, which seems to be targeted toward how one's heart is set. I don't have the answers, but the plan of salvation doesn't make sense to me without extending our "day of repentance" past our mortal lives.

However, in my firm opinion, one who rejects the gospel here is unlikely to embrace it after death. So those multitudes (even, or especially, within the Church) who view the afterlife as a "second chance" are missing the boat by a wide margin, and are engaging in foolish and spiritually dangerous game-playing. This is actually the crux of my disagreement with Rob's philosophies, which I have seen in perhaps a more extreme form among many I love. The veil is not lifted completely upon death, and we won't have a sudden change of heart after death. That same spirit that possesses us when we leave this life will have power to possess us when we take our bodies up again.

[The Folk Prophet]

22 minutes ago, Vort said:

At the risk of, well, taking a risk, I agree (in a narrow sense) with Rob. To some degree, "this world" and "this life" must extend past death. None achieve perfection in this life, and I would suspect that even the best among us will die not having achieved what we set out for. This is not the same as dying in one's sins, which seems to be targeted toward how one's heart is set. I don't have the answers, but the plan of salvation doesn't make sense to me without extending our "day of repentance" past our mortal lives.

However, in my firm opinion, one who rejects the gospel here is unlikely to embrace it after death. So those multitudes (even, or especially, within the Church) who view the afterlife as a "second chance" are missing the boat by a wide margin, and are engaging in foolish and spiritually dangerous game-playing. This is actually the crux of my disagreement with Rob's philosophies, which I have seen in perhaps a more extreme form among many I love. The veil is not lifted completely upon death, and we won't have a sudden change of heart after death. That same spirit that possesses us when we leave this life will have power to possess us when we take our bodies up again.

I don't have a strong problem with anything you've said. I don't see it the same way. I see this life as a test. We are tested by what we do in this life. All of us -- those offered the gospel and those not. We will be judged on how we utilize our agency to handle that test. I do not believe that test extends beyond this mortal life. I believe that we do ordinances for the dead so that those who passed the test can have them. Those who failed the test will reject them.

Now I grant...I have no more idea if my understanding of things on this matter is right. I fully admit that the way you view it is potentially valid. I also don't think the two ideas are really that far apart.

I also don't think you actually agree with Rob at all, as his belief seems to be that we'll all repent our way right up to the Celestial Kingdom no matter what we did in this life, with the exception of those who qualify for outer darkness by refusing to ever repent.

Edited April 13, 2018 by The Folk Prophet

[Rob Osborn]

44 minutes ago, Vort said:

This is actually the crux of my disagreement with Rob's philosophies, which I have seen in perhaps a more extreme form among many I love. The veil is not lifted completely upon death, and we won't have a sudden change of heart after death. That same spirit that possesses us when we leave this life will have power to possess us when we take our bodies up again.

I know, having a personal testimony of it, that the spirit prison is extreme anguish. For almost all there, having that punishment and seeing firsthand the fruits of their works, they will repent and obey Christ. It is yet another means whereby the Father brings to pass his glory being able to change a mans heart through tribulation.

[estradling75]

22 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said:

I don't have a strong problem with anything you've said. I don't see it the same way. I see this life as a test. We are tested by what we do in this life. All of us -- those offered the gospel and those not. We will be judged on how we utilize our agency to handle that test. I do not believe that test extends beyond this mortal life. I believe that we do ordinances for the dead so that those who passed the test can have them. Those who failed the test will reject them.

Now I grant...I have no more idea if my understanding of things on this matter is right. I fully admit that the way you view it is potentially valid. I also don't think the two ideas are really that far apart.

I also don't think you actually agree with Rob at all, as his belief seems to be that we'll all repent our way right up to the Celestial Kingdom no matter what we did in this life, with the exception of those who qualify for outer darkness by refusing to ever repent.

Indeed I can see it going both ways...  I was countering the CAN NEVER absolute!!! on the matter.  At a minimum those that did not have a chance while alive get one...  I do not really have an issue with those who had a chance (per the judgment of the Lord) during their life not getting a second one after death.

[Rob Osborn]

1 hour ago, The Folk Prophet said:

I don't have a strong problem with anything you've said. I don't see it the same way. I see this life as a test. We are tested by what we do in this life. All of us -- those offered the gospel and those not. We will be judged on how we utilize our agency to handle that test. I do not believe that test extends beyond this mortal life. I believe that we do ordinances for the dead so that those who passed the test can have them. Those who failed the test will reject them.

Now I grant...I have no more idea if my understanding of things on this matter is right. I fully admit that the way you view it is potentially valid. I also don't think the two ideas are really that far apart.

I also don't think you actually agree with Rob at all, as his belief seems to be that we'll all repent our way right up to the Celestial Kingdom no matter what we did in this life, with the exception of those who qualify for outer darkness by refusing to ever repent.

We do know the gospel of faith in the Lord Jesus Christ, repentance, baptism, and gift of the Holy Ghost is taught to the wicked spirits in prison who rejected it in mortality. If they accept and show obedience to those ordinances performed in the temple they can be redeemd from hell after they pay their penalty.

[Jersey Boy]

3 hours ago, The Folk Prophet said:

I don't have a strong problem with anything you've said. I don't see it the same way. I see this life as a test. We are tested by what we do in this life. All of us -- those offered the gospel and those not. We will be judged on how we utilize our agency to handle that test. I do not believe that test extends beyond this mortal life. I believe that we do ordinances for the dead so that those who passed the test can have them. Those who failed the test will reject them.

Now I grant...I have no more idea if my understanding of things on this matter is right. I fully admit that the way you view it is potentially valid. I also don't think the two ideas are really that far apart.

I also don't think you actually agree with Rob at all, as his belief seems to be that we'll all repent our way right up to the Celestial Kingdom no matter what we did in this life, with the exception of those who qualify for outer darkness by refusing to ever repent.

Have you ever intensively studied and made a serious attempt to understand Doctrine and Covenants 138? 

[Jersey Boy]

4 hours ago, Vort said:

At the risk of, well, taking a risk, I agree (in a narrow sense) with Rob. To some degree, "this world" and "this life" must extend past death. None achieve perfection in this life, and I would suspect that even the best among us will die not having achieved what we set out for. This is not the same as dying in one's sins, which seems to be targeted toward how one's heart is set. I don't have the answers, but the plan of salvation doesn't make sense to me without extending our "day of repentance" past our mortal lives.

However, in my firm opinion, one who rejects the gospel here is unlikely to embrace it after death. So those multitudes (even, or especially, within the Church) who view the afterlife as a "second chance" are missing the boat by a wide margin, and are engaging in foolish and spiritually dangerous game-playing. This is actually the crux of my disagreement with Rob's philosophies, which I have seen in perhaps a more extreme form among many I love. The veil is not lifted completely upon death, and we won't have a sudden change of heart after death. That same spirit that possesses us when we leave this life will have power to possess us when we take our bodies up again.

Those who enter into the telestial kingdom, where their glories differ as do the stars of heaven in their magnitude, and who are innumerable as the sands of the seashore, are the ungodly, the filthy who suffer the wrath of God on the earth, who are thrust down to hell where they will be required to pay the uttermost farthing before their redemption comes. These are they who receive not the gospel of Christ and consequently could not deny the Holy Spirit while living on the earth. 

They have no part in the first resurrection and are not redeemed from the devil and his angels until the last resurrection, because of their wicked lives and their evil deeds. Nevertheless, even these are heirs of salvation, but before they are redeemed (forgiven and resurrected into a kingdom of glory ) and enter into their kingdom, they must repent of their sins, AND RECEIVE THE GOSPEL, and bow the knee, and acknowledge that Jesus is the Christ, the Redeemer of the world (I.e.their redeemer) “Doctrines of Salvation,” Apostle Joseph Fielding Smith

[The Folk Prophet]

3 hours ago, Jersey Boy said:

Have you ever intensively studied and made a serious attempt to understand Doctrine and Covenants 138? 

Yes. You have something you think I've missed? Do tell. 

[lostinwater]

One of my favorite quotes is from CS Lewis' The Great Divorce.

“There are only two kinds of people in the end: those who say to God, "Thy will be done," and those to whom God says, in the end, "Thy will be done." All that are in Hell, choose it. Without that self-choice there could be no Hell. No soul that seriously and constantly desires joy will ever miss it. Those who seek find. Those who knock it is opened.”