Repentance after death

[Jersey Boy]

7 hours ago, The Folk Prophet said:

Yes. You have something you think I've missed? Do tell. 

If I am understanding you correctly (correct me if I’m wrong), it appears you believe that the wicked and ungodly on earth will, for the most part, continue to remain that way after death even though D&C 138 says the following...

31 And the chosen messengers went forth to declare the acceptable day of the Lord and proclaim liberty to the captives who were bound, even unto all who would repent of their sins and receive the gospel.

32 Thus was the gospel preached to those who had died in their sins, without a knowledge of the truth, or in transgression, having rejected the prophets.

33 These were taught faith in God, repentance from sin, vicarious baptism for the remission of sins, the gift of the Holy Ghost by the laying on of hands,

34 And all other principles of the gospel that were necessary for them to know in order to qualify themselves that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.

35 And so it was made known among the dead, both small and great, the unrighteous as well as the faithful, that redemption had been wrought through the sacrifice of the Son of God upon the cross.

Why bother with all the above if change for the better after death is nigh unto impossible? Do you understand that after death the wicked are thrust into hell (the spirit prison) where they are caused to suffer for their own sins and follies, much as Alma the younger did, and that this dreadful experience of intense spiritual and emotional agony provides great incentive for the wicked to want to come unto Christ and repent that their sufferings might come to an end? 

Again, sorry if I’m misunderstanding your position.

Edited April 14, 2018 by Jersey Boy

[Guest]

11 hours ago, lostinwater said:

One of my favorite quotes is from CS Lewis' The Great Divorce.

“There are only two kinds of people in the end: those who say to God, "Thy will be done," and those to whom God says, in the end, "Thy will be done." All that are in Hell, choose it. Without that self-choice there could be no Hell. No soul that seriously and constantly desires joy will ever miss it. Those who seek find. Those who knock it is opened.”

Thanks for sharing this.  I have a lot of respect for Lewis.  But truly, I believe the Lord says,"Thy will be done" to all.  And this is true whether you believe in the dichotomy of heaven/hell or if you believe in the three degrees of glory.

Dichotomy: WE choose to follow God or follow Satan.  And whomever we choose, The Lord lets us follow that path.

Three degrees: WE choose:

1) WE choose to willfully reject God: Outer Darkness.
2) WE choose to follow our own wills and desires and ignore God: Telestial.
3) WE choose to follow our own sense of what is right and good, believing that is what God wants: Terrestrial.
4) WE choose to sacrifice all our own wills* and sense of right and good to learn from the source of all truth and follow HIM and give our wills to HIM: Celestial.

*As a fan of Lewis, I'm sure you're familiar with his grass /wheat and egg/ bird analogy.

Edited April 14, 2018 by Guest

[The Folk Prophet]

10 hours ago, Jersey Boy said:

If I am understanding you correctly (correct me if I’m wrong), it appears you believe that the wicked and ungodly on earth will, for the most part, continue to remain that way after death even though D&C 138 says the following...

31 And the chosen messengers went forth to declare the acceptable day of the Lord and proclaim liberty to the captives who were bound, even unto all who would repent of their sins and receive the gospel.

32 Thus was the gospel preached to those who had died in their sins, without a knowledge of the truth, or in transgression, having rejected the prophets.

33 These were taught faith in God, repentance from sin, vicarious baptism for the remission of sins, the gift of the Holy Ghost by the laying on of hands,

34 And all other principles of the gospel that were necessary for them to know in order to qualify themselves that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.

35 And so it was made known among the dead, both small and great, the unrighteous as well as the faithful, that redemption had been wrought through the sacrifice of the Son of God upon the cross.

Why bother with all the above if change for the better after death is nigh unto impossible? Do you understand that after death the wicked are thrust into hell (the spirit prison) where they are caused to suffer for their own sins and follies, much as Alma the younger did, and that this dreadful experience of intense spiritual and emotional agony provides great incentive for the wicked to want to come unto Christ and repent that their sufferings might come to an end? 

Again, sorry if I’m misunderstanding your position.

Verses 58 and 59.

58 The dead who repent will be redeemed, through obedience to the ordinances of the house of God,
59 And after they have paid the penalty of their transgressions, and are washed clean, shall receive a reward according to their works, for they are heirs of salvation.

[The Folk Prophet]

@Jersey Boy, Now that I have more time and am not on my phone I'll expound.

I believe that vs. 59 clarifies the point. Every knee will bow and every tongue confess that Jesus is the Christ. We know this. He will put all things under his feet.

I do not believe, nor have I said, that people cannot "repent" after death. The question is what good that repentance will do. I do not believe those who go to the Telestial/Terrestrial kingdom will wander around liars, thieves, murderers, and adulterers, etc., for eternity. The will have changed...meaning repented. They will have accepted the truth of Christ and His gospel. But they will still be in the Telestial/Terrestrial Kingdom.

The question to me is whether we can qualify for the Celestial Glory post mortality or not, not whether we can repent. That is a different question, of course, that the OP, but a more important one to understand/ask.

The dead can clearly repent. (vs. 58 shown above). No one can read that scripture and claim otherwise.

Vs 59 explains that regardless of that repentance, they will still pay the penalty of their transgressions, and they will still be rewarded according to their works.

Edited April 14, 2018 by The Folk Prophet

[lostinwater]

8 hours ago, Carborendum said:

Thanks for sharing this.  I have a lot of respect for Lewis.  But truly, I believe the Lord says,"Thy will be done" to all.  And this is true whether you believe in the dichotomy of heaven/hell or if you believe in the three degrees of glory.

Dichotomy: WE choose to follow God or follow Satan.  And whomever we choose, The Lord lets us follow that path.

Three degrees: WE choose:

1) WE choose to willfully reject God: Outer Darkness.
2) WE choose to follow our own wills and desires and ignore God: Telestial.
3) WE choose to follow our own sense of what is right and good, believing that is what God wants: Terrestrial.
4) WE choose to sacrifice all our own wills* and sense of right and good to learn from the source of all truth and follow HIM and give our wills to HIM: Celestial.

*As a fan of Lewis, I'm sure you're familiar with his grass /wheat and egg/ bird analogy.

Thanks @Carborendum

CS Lewis had a peculiar ability to write things that almost everyone - even those who typically see things differently - can read and agree with.  

i sort of interpreted the quote as meaning that people in hell (or some degree of hell) can still choose to come to heaven - assuming they can let go of the hell inside of them and will accept light and warmth and forgiveness.  But i see your points also - which are, as usual, perfectly elucidated!

[Vort]

17 minutes ago, lostinwater said:

Thanks @Carborendum

CS Lewis had a peculiar ability to write things that almost everyone - even those who typically see things differently - can read and agree with.  

i sort of interpreted the quote as meaning that people in hell (or some degree of hell) can still choose to come to heaven - assuming they can let go of the hell inside of them and will accept light and warmth and forgiveness.  But i see your points also - which are, as usual, perfectly elucidated!

The Doctrine and Covenants makes it clear that many people will be willing to receive only so much of God's blessings. They will be given what they are willing to receive:

And they who remain shall also be quickened; nevertheless, they shall return again to their own place, to enjoy that which they are willing to receive, because they were not willing to enjoy that which they might have received. For what doth it profit a man if a gift is bestowed upon him, and he receive not the gift? Behold, he rejoices not in that which is given unto him, neither rejoices in him who is the giver of the gift.

[Rob Osborn]

1 hour ago, The Folk Prophet said:

@Jersey Boy, Now that I have more time and am not on my phone I'll expound.

I believe that vs. 59 clarifies the point. Every knee will bow and every tongue confess that Jesus is the Christ. We know this. He will put all things under his feet.

I do not believe, nor have I said, that people cannot "repent" after death. The question is what good that repentance will do. I do not believe those who go to the Telestial/Terrestrial kingdom will wander around liars, thieves, murderers, and adulterers, etc., for eternity. The will have changed...meaning repented. They will have accepted the truth of Christ and His gospel. But they will still be in the Telestial/Terrestrial Kingdom.

The question to me is whether we can qualify for the Celestial Glory post mortality or not, not whether we can repent. That is a different question, of course, that the OP, but a more important one to understand/ask.

The dead can clearly repent. (vs. 58 shown above). No one can read that scripture and claim otherwise.

Vs 59 explains that regardless of that repentance, they will still pay the penalty of their transgressions, and they will still be rewarded according to their works.

This is what gets my brain ticking. We know that repentance is available after death. We also know that repentance is for all, not just those who had no opporrunity to hear and accept in mortality. According to section 138 it appears that all who gain salvation do so by obedience to the vicarious ordinances done in their bahalf by mortals in temples. Up yo this point everything sounds good, obeys principle and law, etc. Now, that part about what good it does them?

This is the exact area I really like to study. On principle, a person who repents it is said Christ remembers their sins no more. So, if they repent then whatever they did to end up in spirit prison cant be brought up against them in the final judgment. So then the next principle is what kind of people they become. If they repent and enter into the covenant relationship with God then it means they promise to do all that God commands them to do. In return the Lord Jesus Christ forgives them and washes them clean. And, because they have paid any penalty required of them in spirit prison their entrance into paradise is the same as the righteous because, after all, they have become born again into righteousness. And its at this point that our gospel gets really really fuzzy. Open up your gospel principle manual and it states-

"Also in the spirit prison are those who rejected the gospel after it was preached to them either on earth or in the spirit prison. These spirits suffer in a condition known as hell. They have removed themselves from the mercy of Jesus Christ, who said, “Behold, I, God, have suffered these things for all, that they might not suffer if they would repent; but if they would not repent they must suffer even as I; which suffering caused myself, even God, the greatest of all, to tremble because of pain, and to bleed at every pore, and to suffer both body and spirit” (D&C 19:16–18). After suffering for their sins, they will be allowed, through the Atonement of Jesus Christ, to inherit the lowest degree of glory, which is the telestial kingdom."

When you read section 138 and this excert from the manual it rwally throws a monkey wrench into things. Section 138 seems quite straightforward in teaching repentance is required for salvation of the wicked. The manual states otherwise. If the manual is right then the telestial never repent having removed themselves from the mercy of Christ. This creates a rather paramount problem. In section 76 it refers to them in their present state as the liars, whoremongers, etc. If tgey had really repented then they couldnt be called those things as Christ would remember them no more. As such, our official doctrine thus teaches that Christ saves even the unrepentant, tgey just have to suffer for their own sins first. But, how then are they saved? By what law and ordinance are they saved?

Thus you can begin to see why the gospel and plan of salvation is perhaps misunderstood and that by sticking to a strict dichotomy nonevof these problems surface and create contradictions.

So then, as I understand it, those who repent become the righteous who Christ is able to save. They literally all become saints through obefience to the gospel. More importantly though, they become members of the church of the Firstborn and become joint heirs with Christ to all the Father has.

I find it thus strange we would teach that the lower kingdoms are places of salvation reserved for those who arent really followers of Christ. If they arent followers of Christ then they cannot be saved. 

 

[Jersey Boy]

2 hours ago, The Folk Prophet said:

@Jersey Boy, Now that I have more time and am not on my phone I'll expound.

I believe that vs. 59 clarifies the point. Every knee will bow and every tongue confess that Jesus is the Christ. We know this. He will put all things under his feet.

I do not believe, nor have I said, that people cannot "repent" after death. The question is what good that repentance will do. I do not believe those who go to the Telestial/Terrestrial kingdom will wander around liars, thieves, murderers, and adulterers, etc., for eternity. The will have changed...meaning repented. They will have accepted the truth of Christ and His gospel. But they will still be in the Telestial/Terrestrial Kingdom.

The question to me is whether we can qualify for the Celestial Glory post mortality or not, not whether we can repent. That is a different question, of course, that the OP, but a more important one to understand/ask.

The dead can clearly repent. (vs. 58 shown above). No one can read that scripture and claim otherwise.

Vs 59 explains that regardless of that repentance, they will still pay the penalty of their transgressions, and they will still be rewarded according to their works.

Thanks for the clarification. We are, by and large, in agreement. But one thing to keep in mind is that the revelations in D&C 76 and 138 present us with an incomplete picture of the plan of salvation, for these sections do not present a definitive “final say” on the subject. There is much more that needs to come forth before we can finally have a complete picture.

114 But great and marvelous are the works of the Lord, and the mysteries of his kingdom which he showed unto us, which surpass all understanding in glory, and in might, and in dominion;

115 Which he commanded us we should not write while we were yet in the Spirit, and are not lawful for man to utter; (D&C 76)

One thing we already can wonder about, though, is why it is that those who are in the lower kingdoms of glory are ministered to and taught by messengers from higher kingdoms of glory? Why have ministers of celestial glory enter the terrestrial world and instruct it’s inhabitants if the light of the celestial world is going to forever be unapproachable for those who dwell in terrestrial glory?

 

[zil]

15 minutes ago, Jersey Boy said:

Why have ministers of celestial glory enter the terrestrial world and instruct it’s inhabitants...

Are you sure that's not just your assumption as to the meaning of "minister" in this context?  Is that really the meaning in any context?  If it is the meaning, are you sure they would be providing celestial instruction as opposed to instruction to help them excel within their sphere?

I'm not saying it is or isn't - it's an interesting verb choice, "minister".  Scriptural use of the word is usually pretty vague - "so-n-so ministered to such-n-some", without anything direct as to what that means.  In other places, we see examples of service, but without mention of the word "minister"....  I guess I'm saying we should be careful in assuming what is meant - especially with regard to ministering in the eternities which we already know we cannot imagine.

[The Folk Prophet]

24 minutes ago, Jersey Boy said:

But one thing to keep in mind is that the revelations in D&C 76 and 138 present us with an incomplete picture of the plan of salvation

You'll note in the first post you quoted I said: "I have no more idea if my understanding of things on this matter is right." And not sure you caught this post:

 

Wherein I say, (as you can see)..."We don't really know for sure how it works after death".

27 minutes ago, Jersey Boy said:

One thing we already can wonder about, though, is why it is that those who are in the lower kingdoms of glory are ministered to and taught by messengers from higher kingdoms of glory?

I don't see much value in wondering about that.

28 minutes ago, Jersey Boy said:

Why have ministers of celestial glory enter the terrestrial world and instruct it’s inhabitants if the light of the celestial world is going to forever be unapproachable for those who dwell in terrestrial glory?

I could make up hundreds of reasons without too much effort -- every one of them more likely than, so that they can get to the Celestial Kingdom someday -- and not a single one of them would have any value beyond total speculation, which is to say no value at all.

[Rob Osborn]

One thing lost in all of this is that only one thing prevents us from returning and living in Gods presence- sin. We lived in his presence before. So, if all sins are forgiven, then nothing prevents us from again dwelling in Gods presence. Having separate worlds of glory where some cant dwell in Gods presence only means obe thing- they still must be sinful. Thats problematic.

[Jersey Boy]

10 hours ago, Rob Osborn said:

One thing lost in all of this is that only one thing prevents us from returning and living in Gods presence- sin. We lived in his presence before. So, if all sins are forgiven, then nothing prevents us from again dwelling in Gods presence. Having separate worlds of glory where some cant dwell in Gods presence only means obe thing- they still must be sinful. Thats problematic.

Because the children of God have agency, there are always going to be varying degrees of faith of and faithfulness found in response to the will of God. This is why though each one of us is born equally innocent as babes, some of us are foreordained to to become rulers in the kingdom of God on earth — the prophet Abraham being a prime example of such a man — because through the exercise of their own agency some became those whom God himself singles out as being particularly noble and great in the pre-earth life. Therefore, forgiveness does not necessarily equate with spiritual greatness.

22 Now the Lord had shown unto me, Abraham, the intelligences that were organized before the world was; and among all these there were many of the noble and great ones;

23 And God saw these souls that they were good, and he stood in the midst of them, and he said: These I will make my rulers; for he stood among those that were spirits, and he saw that they were good; and he said unto me: Abraham, thou art one of them; thou wast chosen before thou wast born. (Abraham 3)

The corollary to the above gospel principle is that there are also going to be other sons and daughters of God in the pre-earth life who proved to be less noble and less great than the ones whom God foreordained to become the rulers of his earthly kingdom. Again, there is a difference between being forgiven and being found to be fully faithful and true. In the final judgemen it isn’t going to be one side fits all. The preexistence proves we do not all necessarily turn out to be the same just because we are all equally innocent before God. 

Edited April 15, 2018 by Jersey Boy

[Jersey Boy]

5 hours ago, zil said:

Are you sure that's not just your assumption as to the meaning of "minister" in this context?  Is that really the meaning in any context?  If it is the meaning, are you sure they would be providing celestial instruction as opposed to instruction to help them excel within their sphere?

I'm not saying it is or isn't - it's an interesting verb choice, "minister".  Scriptural use of the word is usually pretty vague - "so-n-so ministered to such-n-some", without anything direct as to what that means.  In other places, we see examples of service, but without mention of the word "minister"....  I guess I'm saying we should be careful in assuming what is meant - especially with regard to ministering in the eternities which we already know we cannot imagine.

I made no assumption. Didn’t I preface that remark by saying D&C 76 plainly indicates it is not to be taken as complete presentation of the plan of salvation and that many of the deeper doctrines pertaining to the salvation of the children of men were deliberately left out that revelation? All I meant to say is that the implications of the ministering from higher kingdoms to lower kingdoms was something interesting to think about. That being said, are you aware of the fact that many of the early leaders of the Church believed those in the lower kingdoms of glory would eventually be able to obtain a celestial glory? 

Here is just one of the many examples I could cite:

“It is reasonable to believe, in the absence of direct revelation by which alone absolute knowledge of the matter could be acquired, that, in accordance with God’s plan of eternal progression, advancement from grade to grade within any kingdom, and from kingdom to kingdom, will be provided for. But if the recipients of a lower glory be enabled to advance, surely the intelligences of higher rank will not be stopped in their progress; and thus we may conclude, that degrees and grades will ever characterize the kingdoms of our God. Eternity is progressive; perfection is relative; the essential feature of God’s living purpose is its associated power of eternal increase.” (James E Talmage, Articles of Faith, first edition)

But I will say I have an open mind on the subject and, unlike some, I have not made up my mind on the subject one way or the other, and will not until the rest of what was withheld from D&C 76 is finally revealed. But how much do you want to bet that when the missing information is finally revealed there are going to be a lot of shocking surprises? And if it turns out that those in the lower kingdoms can eventually obtain a celestial glory, I will be absolutely delighted. But if it turns out that there is no way for those in the lower kingdoms of glory  to eventually progress to a higher kingdom of glory, I will be content as long as I know that those in the lower kingdoms can continue to progress in some way and that, most importantly, they are at peace and happy.

 

 

Edited April 15, 2018 by Jersey Boy

[SpiritDragon]

6 hours ago, Jersey Boy said:

I made no assumption. Didn’t I preface that remark by saying D&C 76 plainly indicates it is not to be taken as complete presentation of the plan of salvation and that many of the deeper doctrines pertaining to the salvation of the children of men were deliberately left out that revelation? All I meant to say is that the implications of the ministering from higher kingdoms to lower kingdoms was something interesting to think about. That being said, are you aware of the fact that many of the early leaders of the Church believed those in the lower kingdoms of glory would eventually be able to obtain a celestial glory? 

Here is just one of the many examples I could cite:

“It is reasonable to believe, in the absence of direct revelation by which alone absolute knowledge of the matter could be acquired, that, in accordance with God’s plan of eternal progression, advancement from grade to grade within any kingdom, and from kingdom to kingdom, will be provided for. But if the recipients of a lower glory be enabled to advance, surely the intelligences of higher rank will not be stopped in their progress; and thus we may conclude, that degrees and grades will ever characterize the kingdoms of our God. Eternity is progressive; perfection is relative; the essential feature of God’s living purpose is its associated power of eternal increase.” (James E Talmage, Articles of Faith, first edition)

But I will say I have an open mind on the subject and, unlike some, I have not made up my mind on the subject one way or the other, and will not until the rest of what was withheld from D&C 76 is finally revealed. But how much do you want to bet that when the missing information is finally revealed there are going to be a lot of shocking surprises? And if it turns out that those in the lower kingdoms can eventually obtain a celestial glory, I will be absolutely delighted. But if it turns out that there is no way for those in the lower kingdoms of glory  to eventually progress to a higher kingdom of glory, I will be content as long as I know that those in the lower kingdoms can continue to progress in some way and that, most importantly, they are at peace and happy.

 

 

Would you mind citing more examples of early belief in progression between kingdoms? 

[Jersey Boy]

1 hour ago, SpiritDragon said:

Would you mind citing more examples of early belief in progression between kingdoms? 

None would inherit this earth when it became celestial and translated into the presence of God but those who would be crowned as Gods — all others would have to inherit another kingdom — they would eventually have the privilege of proving themselves worthy and advancing to a celestial kingdom but it would be a slow process [progress?].”

-Brigham Young, in Wilford Woodruff Journal, 5 Aug 1855

 

 

[Rob Osborn]

10 hours ago, Jersey Boy said:

Because the children of God have agency, there are always going to be varying degrees of faith of and faithfulness found in response to the will of God. This is why though each one of us is born equally innocent as babes, some of us are foreordained to to become rulers in the kingdom of God on earth — the prophet Abraham being a prime example of such a man — because through the exercise of their own agency some became those whom God himself singles out as being particularly noble and great in the pre-earth life. Therefore, forgiveness does not necessarily equate with spiritual greatness.

22 Now the Lord had shown unto me, Abraham, the intelligences that were organized before the world was; and among all these there were many of the noble and great ones;

23 And God saw these souls that they were good, and he stood in the midst of them, and he said: These I will make my rulers; for he stood among those that were spirits, and he saw that they were good; and he said unto me: Abraham, thou art one of them; thou wast chosen before thou wast born. (Abraham 3)

The corollary to the above gospel principle is that there are also going to be other sons and daughters of God in the pre-earth life who proved to be less noble and less great than the ones whom God foreordained to become the rulers of his earthly kingdom. Again, there is a difference between being forgiven and being found to be fully faithful and true. In the final judgemen it isn’t going to be one side fits all. The preexistence proves we do not all necessarily turn out to be the same just because we are all equally innocent before God. 

I agree. What I was getting at was the state of the saved- cleansed. If all those Christ saves are cleansed then what prohibits them from dwelling in Gods presence as they are once again innocent before God?

[Rob Osborn]

I guess that my point is that our gospel almost appears to make it seem like the lower glories cant withstand the Fathers presence because they are still somewhat carnal and sensual (sinful) and thus why they cant dwell with him in his physical presence in eternity.

[The Folk Prophet]

7 hours ago, SpiritDragon said:

Would you mind citing more examples of early belief in progression between kingdoms? 

To what end? There have been statements made on both views of the issue....none of them canon and none of them official.

https://www.fairmormon.org/answers/Question:_Do_Mormons_believe_that_there_is_there_progression_between_the_three_degrees_of_glory%3F

 

[SpiritDragon]

4 hours ago, The Folk Prophet said:

To what end? There have been statements made on both views of the issue....none of them canon and none of them official.

https://www.fairmormon.org/answers/Question:_Do_Mormons_believe_that_there_is_there_progression_between_the_three_degrees_of_glory%3F

 

Curiosity. I decided to look into any teachings on progression between kingdoms and came across the article you have linked among others - I never realized that the church didn't have an official position, I had previously thought the position was clear on there being no kingdom hopping which made these quotes and articles extra interesting to me. 

[Vort]

5 minutes ago, SpiritDragon said:

Curiosity. I decided to look into any teachings on progression between kingdoms and came across the article you have linked among others - I never realized that the church didn't have an official position, I had previously thought the position was clear on there being no kingdom hopping which made these quotes and articles extra interesting to me. 

I expect most of the consternation comes because some in the Church *waves hand* think that teaching the pseudodoctrine of "kingdom progression" is simply another way to say, "Eat, drink, and be merry, for tomorrow we die; and it shall be well with us...Eat, drink, and be merry; nevertheless, fear God—he will justify in committing a little sin; yea, lie a little, take the advantage of one because of his words, dig a pit for thy neighbor; there is no harm in this; and do all these things, for tomorrow we die; and if it so be that we are guilty, God will beat us with a few stripes, and at last we shall be saved in the kingdom of God."

[lostinwater]

2 hours ago, Vort said:

I expect most of the consternation comes because some in the Church *waves hand* think that teaching the pseudodoctrine of "kingdom progression" is simply another way to say, "Eat, drink, and be merry, for tomorrow we die; and it shall be well with us...Eat, drink, and be merry; nevertheless, fear God—he will justify in committing a little sin; yea, lie a little, take the advantage of one because of his words, dig a pit for thy neighbor; there is no harm in this; and do all these things, for tomorrow we die; and if it so be that we are guilty, God will beat us with a few stripes, and at last we shall be saved in the kingdom of God."

Let's say the person feels genuine regret for what they did.  Is the hangup that "a few" stripes isn't sufficient? What if "a few" were instead "many"?  Would there be a point where they'd suffered enough?  Or does a person who is likened to a toddler in comparison to God who screws up - however you define that - for a period of time that in the eternal perspective i've heard likened to the blink of an eye - need to be thrown into the dungeons of hell, or some degree thereof, with the key being thrown away - there to remain amidst their regrets and desires to change?  

i mean, if you have a baby girl that whacks her sibling over the head with a block, you put her in a time-out.  But you don't give up on her - especially if that girl has not given up on herself.  Is God different in that regard?  

i don't know - it honestly doesn't make sense to me.  i respect if it does to others - this isn't meant to be an argument.  Or maybe i'm not understanding what everyone else is saying.  

Edited April 16, 2018 by lostinwater

[Rob Osborn]

1 hour ago, Vort said:

I expect most of the consternation comes because some in the Church *waves hand* think that teaching the pseudodoctrine of "kingdom progression" is simply another way to say, "Eat, drink, and be merry, for tomorrow we die; and it shall be well with us...Eat, drink, and be merry; nevertheless, fear God—he will justify in committing a little sin; yea, lie a little, take the advantage of one because of his words, dig a pit for thy neighbor; there is no harm in this; and do all these things, for tomorrow we die; and if it so be that we are guilty, God will beat us with a few stripes, and at last we shall be saved in the kingdom of God."

I dont know why that thinking persists. Ive been accused of that thinking quite a lot and yet my understanding of a strict dichotomy of heaven or hell makes it harder to be saved- its definitely not universal salcation. In LDS official doctrine we teach something quite similar though in that as long as you arent a son of perdition you will be saved eventually with a little beating.

[SpiritDragon]

1 hour ago, Vort said:

I expect most of the consternation comes because some in the Church *waves hand* think that teaching the pseudodoctrine of "kingdom progression" is simply another way to say, "Eat, drink, and be merry, for tomorrow we die; and it shall be well with us...Eat, drink, and be merry; nevertheless, fear God—he will justify in committing a little sin; yea, lie a little, take the advantage of one because of his words, dig a pit for thy neighbor; there is no harm in this; and do all these things, for tomorrow we die; and if it so be that we are guilty, God will beat us with a few stripes, and at last we shall be saved in the kingdom of God."

Indeed. I understand the lack of appeal of such a doctrine as it would seem unfair to those who were faithful in this life and went through much persecution and so on, when others would still have a chance at the same reward without putting in the same effort in this life. It is hard to reconcile with the idea of justice. It makes me think of the parable of the laborers in the vineyard:

Quote

1 For the kingdom of heaven is like unto a man that is an householder, which went out early in the morning to hire labourers into his vineyard....

6 And about the eleventh hour he went out, and found others standing idle, and saith unto them, Why stand ye here all the day idle?

7 They say unto him, Because no man hath hired us. He saith unto them, Go ye also into the vineyard; and whatsoever is right, that shall ye receive.

8 So when even was come, the lord of the vineyard saith unto his steward, Call the labourers, and give them theirhire, beginning from the last unto the first.

9 And when they came that were hired about the eleventh hour, they received every man a penny.

10 But when the first came, they supposed that they should have received more; and they likewise received every man a penny.

11 And when they had received it, they murmured against the goodman of the house,

12 Saying, These last have wrought but one hour, and thou hast made them equal unto us, which have borne the burden and heat of the day.

13 But he answered one of them, and said, Friend, I do thee no wrong: didst not thou agree with me for a penny?

14 Take that thine is, and go thy way: I will give unto this last, even as unto thee.

15 Is it not lawful for me to do what I will with mine own? Is thine eye evil, because I am good?

Now I have to say, I would traditionally read this as only referring to this life time, but I suppose that is not explicit to the parable.

Of course, as you stated the danger of the notion that there are chances to repent and be forgiven for all eternity is that it potentially attenuates any urgency to do so now. Without a clear-cut teaching on the matter it is not worth gambling on second chances. 

[Rob Osborn]

18 minutes ago, SpiritDragon said:

Indeed. I understand the lack of appeal of such a doctrine as it would seem unfair to those who were faithful in this life and went through much persecution and so on, when others would still have a chance at the same reward without putting in the same effort in this life. It is hard to reconcile with the idea of justice. It makes me think of the parable of the laborers in the vineyard:

Now I have to say, I would traditionally read this as only referring to this life time, but I suppose that is not explicit to the parable.

Of course, as you stated the danger of the notion that there are chances to repent and be forgiven for all eternity is that it potentially attenuates any urgency to do so now. Without a clear-cut teaching on the matter it is not worth gambling on second chances. 

Except for the fact that wickedness isnt happiness. I hear it all the time that sinners get to live the high life- partying, stealing, etc, while those who do right are constrained and have it hard. That though is Satans lie and once one truly experiences obedience after being a sinner its truly freedom and joy. Repenting and being forgiven is rewarding beyond anything else. Its only Satans lies that people continue in sin thinking its great. When truth finally kicks in for the sinner they realize their pain and sorrow just gets worse and worse everytime.

[NightSG]

12 hours ago, The Folk Prophet said:

To what end? There have been statements made on both views of the issue....none of them canon and none of them official.

https://www.fairmormon.org/answers/Question:_Do_Mormons_believe_that_there_is_there_progression_between_the_three_degrees_of_glory%3F

 

So in other words, it's equal in importance to The Great and Holy Gospel of the White Shirt.