Agency: Bestowed or Enabled?

[person0]

Today as I was pondering on the Atonement of Jesus Christ, I discovered a question I had not previously considered in much depth.  The principle of agency is one that is of central importance to the plan of salvation.  We must each choose whom or what we will serve, and the consequences of our decisions and actions will either lead us toward or away from Christ.  We had agency in our pre-mortal life, and we have it here on earth.  Often we speak of agency as a gift from God.  However, given that 'man was in the beginning with God' and that intelligence cannot be made, I have been questioning if agency is actually endowed upon us by God as a gift of something we did not posses prior?  Or instead, is it an inherent and natural characteristic of our existence as intelligent beings, which is enabled by God?

After considering it for a while, I lean toward the latter.  I have difficulty imagining taking something that does not already have the capacity to choose for itself and then all of a sudden bestowing it with such.  Perhaps our ability to choose is innate, but is useless (or nearly so) without the ability to use it to act in a meaningful way.  Perhaps the ability to use it to act is enabled as we are begotten to God as His spirit children.  Further, perhaps Christs atonement gifts us agency during mortality, not by actually granting the ability to choose, but instead, the opportunity and motivation.  This, by giving all mankind the influence of the Light of Christ, and giving value to choices that lead us to God.  Otherwise, without His atonement and the possibility of salvation, there would be no advantage, and therefore no reason, to make righteous choices; so people would only seek to serve themselves.

[SpiritDragon]

Interesting thoughts. I'll hopefully get back to comment at some point. For now I need to get to sleep - I'd be inclined to read 2 Nephi 2 for some source material about things to act and things to be acted upon.

Quote

14 And now, my sons, I speak unto you these things for your profit and learning; for there is a God, and he hath created all things, both the heavens and the earth, and all things that in them are, both things to act and things to be acted upon.

15 And to bring about his eternal purposes in the end of man, after he had created our first parents, and the beasts of the field and the fowls of the air, and in fine, all things which are created, it must needs be that there was an opposition; even the forbidden fruit in opposition to the tree of life; the one being sweet and the other bitter.

16 Wherefore, the Lord God gave unto man that he should act for himself. Wherefore, man could not act for himself save it should be that he was enticed by the one or the other.

17 And I, Lehi, according to the things which I have read, must needs suppose that an angel of God, according to that which is written, had fallen from heaven; wherefore, he became a devil, having sought that which was evil before God.

This just seemed like it would be useful to your discussion. 

[zil]

8 hours ago, person0 said:

Often we speak of agency as a gift from God.

Probably because the scriptures do:

• gave I unto man his agency, Moses 7:32
• moral agency which I have given, D&C 101:78

8 hours ago, person0 said:

However, given that 'man was in the beginning with God' and that intelligence cannot be made, I have been questioning if agency is actually endowed upon us by God as a gift of something we did not posses prior?  Or instead, is it an inherent and natural characteristic of our existence as intelligent beings, which is enabled by God?

Perhaps you should define what you think agency is.  I used to believe that it included the ability to make choices - I no longer believe that, not one bit.  If we look at the dictionary definition of "agent" it doesn't include anything like that.  I suspect the dictionary definition is more correct - it's more about representing someone's interest in transactions, or acting to bring about a desired effect, than it is about simply the ability to choose (free will).  An agent is accountable to the person they represent for the results of their actions.

Quote

D&C 58

27 Verily I say, men should be anxiously engaged in a good cause, and do many things of their own free will, and bring to pass much righteousness;

28 For the power is in them, wherein they are agents unto themselves. And inasmuch as men do good they shall in nowise lose their reward.

29 But he that doeth not anything until he is commanded, and receiveth a commandment with doubtful heart, and keepeth it with slothfulness, the same is damned.

30 Who am I that made man, saith the Lord, that will hold him guiltless that obeys not my commandments?

All humans represent themselves as far as their own salvation is concerned, and will answer for their choices and receive the corresponding reward.  Those under covenant are agents of Jesus Christ, to represent him and do as he has instructed.  They also will answer for their choices and receive accordingly.

I think free will is simply the ability to choose and is innate.  I think agency requires an agreement between parties and is a responsibility to represent a person's interests (even if it's your own interests).

[Guest]

8 hours ago, person0 said:

Today as I was pondering on the Atonement of Jesus Christ, I discovered a question I had not previously considered in much depth.  The principle of agency is one that is of central importance to the plan of salvation.  We must each choose whom or what we will serve, and the consequences of our decisions and actions will either lead us toward or away from Christ.  We had agency in our pre-mortal life, and we have it here on earth.  Often we speak of agency as a gift from God.  However, given that 'man was in the beginning with God' and that intelligence cannot be made, I have been questioning if agency is actually endowed upon us by God as a gift of something we did not posses prior?  Or instead, is it an inherent and natural characteristic of our existence as intelligent beings, which is enabled by God?

After considering it for a while, I lean toward the latter.  I have difficulty imagining taking something that does not already have the capacity to choose for itself and then all of a sudden bestowing it with such.  Perhaps our ability to choose is innate, but is useless (or nearly so) without the ability to use it to act in a meaningful way.  Perhaps the ability to use it to act is enabled as we are begotten to God as His spirit children.  Further, perhaps Christs atonement gifts us agency during mortality, not by actually granting the ability to choose, but instead, the opportunity and motivation.  This, by giving all mankind the influence of the Light of Christ, and giving value to choices that lead us to God.  Otherwise, without His atonement and the possibility of salvation, there would be no advantage, and therefore no reason, to make righteous choices; so people would only seek to serve themselves.

Short answer:  I don't know.  My speculation is that it is a bit like creating a sentient android (Hello, CDR. Data).

First, I'll define agency: Agency means that we can respond to stimuli rather than react to stimuli.  Any chemical any object any animal can REACT.  But only humans can RESPOND.  I'll talk about that difference more later.  So, what was it about us that gives us that ability?

When we read about intelligences, we find that God found that we had "the potential" for intelligence.  While intelligence is defined as "light and knowledge" I would believe that agency is part and parcel of light and knowledge.  It may or may not have been part of what we were prior to our first spiritual birth.  But we do know that at least by the time we had the Council in Heaven, we had the ability to choose.

Responding is that type of counter-action which requires thought and a true decision.  Animals react without thought or considering consequences.  Responding takes a greater level of awareness of things not in the immediate reality.  It requires being able to see into the future (faith) and being aware of things far beyond the immediate vicinity (see the big picture/receive revelation).

I believe that many people go through this life never truly understanding faith or revelation.  Atheists outright deny it.  Therefore, they deny the primary trait of divinity. Fitting. 

Other faiths sort of understand it, but they also deny faith, revelation, AND agency to an extent.  Therefore, they also deny that we have any sort of divine nature.  They instead opt to believe that we are a different species.  And too many people -- even from childhood -- deny that they have agency.  "He MADE me do it!" says the child who got angry and hit her brother.

Buddhists believe that we can be "one with the universe".  But their tactic is to bring God down.  

As Mormons, we stand alone in that we 1) Keep God elevated, exalted, and supreme.  And 2) Raise man up to say we are the same species and have a divine nature.  And agency is a central part of that nature.

Edited April 9, 2018 by Guest

[CV75]

8 hours ago, person0 said:

Today as I was pondering on the Atonement of Jesus Christ, I discovered a question I had not previously considered in much depth.  The principle of agency is one that is of central importance to the plan of salvation.  We must each choose whom or what we will serve, and the consequences of our decisions and actions will either lead us toward or away from Christ.  We had agency in our pre-mortal life, and we have it here on earth.  Often we speak of agency as a gift from God.  However, given that 'man was in the beginning with God' and that intelligence cannot be made, I have been questioning if agency is actually endowed upon us by God as a gift of something we did not posses prior?  Or instead, is it an inherent and natural characteristic of our existence as intelligent beings, which is enabled by God?

After considering it for a while, I lean toward the latter.  I have difficulty imagining taking something that does not already have the capacity to choose for itself and then all of a sudden bestowing it with such.  Perhaps our ability to choose is innate, but is useless (or nearly so) without the ability to use it to act in a meaningful way.  Perhaps the ability to use it to act is enabled as we are begotten to God as His spirit children.  Further, perhaps Christs atonement gifts us agency during mortality, not by actually granting the ability to choose, but instead, the opportunity and motivation.  This, by giving all mankind the influence of the Light of Christ, and giving value to choices that lead us to God.  Otherwise, without His atonement and the possibility of salvation, there would be no advantage, and therefore no reason, to make righteous choices; so people would only seek to serve themselves.

I tend to believe the latter also, but that our scope of action cannot be broadened independently of the influence and action of God the Father, per D&C 93. "Man was also in the beginning with God. Intelligence, or the light of truth, was not created or made, neither indeed can be. All truth is independent in that sphere in which God has placed it, to act for itself, as all intelligence also; otherwise there is no existence. Behold, here is the agency of man, and here is the condemnation of man; because that which was from the beginning is plainly manifest unto them, and they receive not the light." In other words, we cannot use our agency to progress and become like God without Him. Agency expands only when God places us in a new sphere where we can act more independently for ourselves. For example, as when He placed Adam and Eve in bodies in the Garden of Eden from their previous abode as spirits in His presence.

[zil]

I also used to think agency was freedom, or made us free - the freedom to choose and act.  I don't think that either anymore.  Agency makes us responsible.  The Atonement makes us free.  (The law is required for both.)  Without the Atonement, we would be subject to eternal penalties - we would not be free to overcome or escape these penalties.  With the Atonement, Christ can "undo" the effect of sin, overcome the penalties, free us from them.  The Atonement makes us free - see 2 Nephi 2:26 ("... And because that they are redeemed from the fall they have become free forever ...").

[The Folk Prophet]

Agency is a gift given through the Atonement. Without the Atonement we would not have the ability to choose salvation.

[person0]

1 hour ago, zil said:

I think free will is simply the ability to choose and is innate.  I think agency requires an agreement between parties and is a responsibility to represent a person's interests (even if it's your own interests).

Very interesting.  

[person0]

59 minutes ago, CV75 said:

I tend to believe the latter also, but that our scope of action cannot be broadened independently of the influence and action of God the Father, per D&C 93. "Man was also in the beginning with God. Intelligence, or the light of truth, was not created or made, neither indeed can be. All truth is independent in that sphere in which God has placed it, to act for itself, as all intelligence also; otherwise there is no existence. Behold, here is the agency of man, and here is the condemnation of man; because that which was from the beginning is plainly manifest unto them, and they receive not the light." In other words, we cannot use our agency to progress and become like God without Him. Agency expands only when God places us in a new sphere where we can act more independently for ourselves. For example, as when He placed Adam and Eve in bodies in the Garden of Eden from their previous abode as spirits in His presence.

I think this expounds a little on what I was trying to say.  As of where I am right now, I agree.

[person0]

46 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said:

Agency is a gift given through the Atonement. Without the Atonement we would not have the ability to choose salvation.

I agree, but didn't I say (or at least suggest) that already?

[The Folk Prophet]

4 minutes ago, person0 said:

I agree, but didn't I say (or at least suggest) that already?

 You used the term 'perhaps'. I was saying it is not a perhaps. It is so. 

[Fether]

This topic has sat in the back of my mind for a long time. I kinda came to this conclusion.

If I were floating around in empty, black space. Unable to feel or really know anything, but yet I still exist. Do I have agency? What decisions do I have to make? None! Then do I have agency?

God gathered us up, taught us passions, gave us bodies and sent us here to earth. We now have plenty of decisions to make.

[Traveler]

11 hours ago, person0 said:

Today as I was pondering on the Atonement of Jesus Christ, I discovered a question I had not previously considered in much depth.  The principle of agency is one that is of central importance to the plan of salvation.  We must each choose whom or what we will serve, and the consequences of our decisions and actions will either lead us toward or away from Christ.  We had agency in our pre-mortal life, and we have it here on earth.  Often we speak of agency as a gift from God.  However, given that 'man was in the beginning with God' and that intelligence cannot be made, I have been questioning if agency is actually endowed upon us by God as a gift of something we did not posses prior?  Or instead, is it an inherent and natural characteristic of our existence as intelligent beings, which is enabled by God?

After considering it for a while, I lean toward the latter.  I have difficulty imagining taking something that does not already have the capacity to choose for itself and then all of a sudden bestowing it with such.  Perhaps our ability to choose is innate, but is useless (or nearly so) without the ability to use it to act in a meaningful way.  Perhaps the ability to use it to act is enabled as we are begotten to God as His spirit children.  Further, perhaps Christs atonement gifts us agency during mortality, not by actually granting the ability to choose, but instead, the opportunity and motivation.  This, by giving all mankind the influence of the Light of Christ, and giving value to choices that lead us to God.  Otherwise, without His atonement and the possibility of salvation, there would be no advantage, and therefore no reason, to make righteous choices; so people would only seek to serve themselves.

 

By definition – agency is a gift or power that must be both given and received.  I would suggest that agency is similar to taking upon someone else’s name.  That agency is given and received in what we know and understand as covenant.  Agency is different than will or merely making a choice.  Agency is also the means to legally and justly allow G-d (Son of G-d – Jesus Christ) to redeem or pay for our sins.

 

The Traveler

[person0]

25 minutes ago, Fether said:

Do I have agency? What decisions do I have to make? None! Then do I have agency?

I agree.  I think as @zil said, we have always had the capacity to make choices (even if there was no choice to be made at the time), but that the ability to make choices alone is not agency.

Robert D. Hales once taught:

Quote

We teach that agency is the ability and privilege God gives us to choose and “to act for [ourselves] and not to be acted upon.” Agency is to act with accountability and responsibility for our actions.

The ability to choose alone is not enough; to be an agent, accountability and responsibility is required.

[JohnsonJones]

Hmm...

When you are first born, you have the ability to cry, spoil a diaper, and move your limbs.  You will be moved where someone moves you, you will see what they put around you.  You have very little agency.  As you grow, you gain mobility and the ability to have more actions you can choose from. This continues to increase as you grow and mature.

Intelligences only have what they have been granted by the Lord.  Take a Tree.  It is an intelligence, but it is far more limited in it's actions than you or I.  Is it completely by choice?  Or is there more to it.  It is possible that it has choice and agency, but is that agency as great as that of the Human race?

I would say that there are vast differences between the intelligences gathered under heaven, some having lesser and some having greater intelligence.  My thoughts on the matter are that when we were just starting out and were intelligences gathered by the Lord, we had very little agency compared to what we have now.  As we became spirit children and were granted spirit bodies we started to grow in knowledge and ability.  We were granted the ability to choose more than we used to so that rather than simply being like the stones which go to and fro at command, we instead had the ability to make some choices. 

I think that free agency is a GIFT from the Lord and that as we grow and progress this agency grows greater.  Even now, we have agency, but I think that agency will and can increase in the future.  Who do you think will have more free agency to choose...those who go to the Telestial Kingdom, or those who progress to the Celestial Kingdom.  I would posit that those who go to the Celestial Kingdom will have far more power and glory and hence that will give them a greater range of agency to ACT than those who go to lower or lesser Kingdoms.

[Anddenex]

Agency is a gift from God just as faith is a gift from God.

[CV75]

6 hours ago, person0 said:

I think this expounds a little on what I was trying to say.  As of where I am right now, I agree.

I think it is the same principle as D&C 88:36-39, paraphrased as "there is no sphere for which there is no intelligence with agency; and there is no intelligence with agency for which there is no sphere to act, either a greater or a lesser intelligence (See Abraham 3:18-19)."

"All kingdoms have a law given; And there are many kingdoms; for there is no space in the which there is no kingdom; and there is no kingdom in which there is no space, either a greater or a lesser kingdom. And unto every kingdom is given a law; and unto every law there are certain bounds also and conditions. All beings who abide not in those conditions are not justified."