On Love, on Charity, and on Salvation.

[zil]

16 minutes ago, 2ndRateMind said:

All it would take to achieve the righting of that wrong, it seems to me, is some money, some charity, some love. 

Seriously?  You think you're gonna give a drug dealer his $30,000 and suddenly he's a productive member of society?  You think you're going to give $30,000 to a heroin addict and suddenly she's a productive member of society? 

There is one and only one thing that will solve the world's ills and that is the gospel of Jesus Christ, lived by all the people of the world (or at least the overwhelmingly overwhelming majority of it, such that the minority evil have insufficient power to harm the innocent).

Want to solve the world's problems?  First, make sure you're not part of the problem (make sure you're responsible, productive, in a position to give of yourself, not just your money).  Next, help some child choose education and productivity over ignorance and gangs.  Help some willing soul to find and keep a job.  Help someone overcome an addiction.  Teach someone how to be responsible with money.  Help a convict learn to function as a law-abiding citizen.  Teach someone that clean is better than dirty.  Help the cops lock up the criminal who refuses to be better.  Show someone that selfless is better than selfish.  Each individual does this one person at a time (if they do it at all).

Handing out money for nothing isn't going to educate that child, bring self-respect and self-reliance to the guy who just wants a job, cure an addiction, teach responsibility, help someone see the value of the rule of law, demonstrate the virtue of cleanliness, convince a criminal who likes being a criminal to stop liking being a criminal, nor teach anyone how to be selfless (though it might convince a lot more people to be selfish).

It's easy to donate money.  It's easy to yammer on about how everyone ought to donate money.  It's hard to walk into a homeless shelter and make a friend and stick by them through the trials of their life.

Want to make a difference?  Bring someone to Christ.  He's the only chance any of us has.

Edited May 30, 2018 by zil

[2ndRateMind]

2 minutes ago, Overwatch said:

At this time it is only dream 

Of course it's a dream. I cannot see, for example, Putin, allegedly the richest man in the world, donating any of his wealth toward the common good. But this seems true to me, that if enough people dream the same dream, we can change the political climate. And if enough political climates change, we can change the world.

Best wishes, 2RM

 

[zil]

dupe

Edited May 30, 2018 by zil

[zil]

Seriously? dupety dupe doop.

Edited May 30, 2018 by zil

[MaryJehanne]

On May 29, 2018 at 10:42 AM, 2ndRateMind said:

I am not at all sure that the early church fathers distinguished between these two; love, and charity.

But these days we do so distinguish. Love is a (sometimes fierce) sentimental attachment, charity is the gift of money or, more rarely, time and attention, to the needy.

Assuming some distinction necessary; my own position would be that charity is the sacrifice love makes, and given that for sure the world's needs whatever sacrifices it can get, it must also need that motifying imperative that is love.

On this I take directly from the Gospels:*** 

So, can you be saved if you do not love? Can you love if you do not gift charity? Collapsing the two, can you be saved if you do not gift whatever charity you can? Reversing the two, if you do not gift whatever charity you can, are you saved?

Best wishes, 2RM.

*1 Corinthians 13:13 KJV

**1 Corinthians 13:13 NIV

*** 1 John 4:7 - 8 KJV

Hello, again, 2RM!

As I think you hit on later in the thread, a lot of the issue has to do with the English language. We don't have many words for love, so we end up using one word to represent everything from liking things to romantic attraction to love of God. Charity is used to describe a specific type of love, essentially Agape: God-like, sacrificial, supernatural love.

Charity is often thought of as the action of giving money or treating people kindly and patiently. These aren't the sole definitions of the word, but an embodiment of some of the possible results of Charity. However, one reason we shouldn't rely on these as the definitions of Charity is that they can be done without Charity (selfless love): someone can give money because it makes them feel good or because they get accolades for doing it or because they're being forced to. It's the will, the "inside" of a person that moves towards good or evil; physical action is only a sign of their intention. While one person may give money for selfish reasons, others may perform the same action for selfless reasons, such as when St. Francis of Assisi gave up his wealthy life to live in utter poverty. Charity has to do with placing others before you, and can be embodied by caring for the sick, giving away wealth or clothes or food, being patient and kind to those who are cruel to you, etc. 

Quote

 

"In its widest and highest sense, charity includes love of God as well as love of man." "As a virtue, charity is that habit or power which disposes us to love God above all creatures for Himself, and to love ourselves and our neighbors for the sake of God." (https://www.catholic.com/encyclopedia/charity-and-charities)

"Jesus makes charity the new commandment. By loving his own "to the end," he makes manifest the Father's love which he receives. By loving one another, the disciples imitate the love of Jesus which they themselves receive. Whence Jesus says: "As the Father has loved me, so have I loved you; abide in my love." and again: "This is my commandment, that you love one another as I have loved you."" (CCC, 1823) 

""If I . . . have not charity," says the Apostle, "I am nothing." Whatever my privilege, service, or even virtue, "if I . . . have not charity, I gain nothing."103 Charity is superior to all the virtues. It is the first of the theological virtues: "So faith, hope, charity abide, these three. But the greatest of these is charity."" (CCC, 1826)

"The practice of all the virtues is animated and inspired by charity, which "binds everything together in perfect harmony";105 it is the form of the virtues; it articulates and orders them among themselves; it is the source and the goal of their Christian practice. Charity upholds and purifies our human ability to love, and raises it to the supernatural perfection of divine love." (CCC, 1827)  (http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P66.HTM)

 

For more reading on love, if you're interested, I'd suggest C.S. Lewis' The Four Loves (https://www.amazon.com/Four-Loves-C-S-Lewis/dp/0156329301). I'll admit I haven't read it yet, but it does speak on what you're thinking about, and he discusses the four main Greek words for love!

So, from my Catholic foundation, I would say you're correct in postulating that Charity is sacrificial! I'd just offer the distinction that Charity is not just an act, but the highest form of love itself, under a different, more specific name to distinguish it from the multitude of definition the English "love" could have.

To answer your specific questions:

So, can you be saved if you do not love?

Being saved, as in going to heaven? No, you cannot!

God is love, and if you do not love, if you do not specifically love with the love that is Charity, you have not served Him.

Can you love if you do not gift charity?

Love is an internal movement of the will. (An action that seems charitable is not necessarily charity!) Love comes from inside, and manifests outside. If someone has nothing physical to give, that isn't their fault. If they do, however, they certainly should be giving, specifically through the Corporal Works of Mercy (http://www.usccb.org/beliefs-and-teachings/how-we-teach/new-evangelization/jubilee-of-mercy/the-corporal-works-of-mercy.cfm). But even greater are the Spiritual Works of Mercy (http://www.usccb.org/beliefs-and-teachings/how-we-teach/new-evangelization/jubilee-of-mercy/the-spiritual-works-of-mercy.cfm), which even those with nothing can do.

Collapsing the two, can you be saved if you do not gift whatever charity you can?

The specific amount of money someone gives depends on several factors! Are they a religious who has taken a vow of poverty? Does the person have a family to support? Has the person met their own need according to their state and position in life? It is okay to keep some money for fun things that are good for you, like vacations with family or a new art supplies. When it gets into excess, then it becomes selfish. It is greater to give all you have away, but not everyone is called to that life (the life of, primarily, religious orders), especially those who have the responsibility of a family. Why? Not only is it an act of charity that helps the person you're giving the money to, but it's a sacrifice and mortification for the soul who's giving, allowing them to exercise love and grow in holiness.

Reversing the two, if you do not gift whatever charity you can, are you saved?

Saved as in already saved on Earth? In Catholicism, no one is saved until they're dead and have gone to heaven (or purgatory in preparation for heaven)! If someone has failed to give of themselves as much as they should on Earth, then they can still receive salvation if they repent, because God is merciful and wants you to love, not merely accumulate physical actions (although, again, these are good when they come from love!). Omitting actions of charity would still be faults, but these faults are not greater than God's mercy.

 

I hope that helped! Let me know if you have any other questions!

God bless!

 

[Still_Small_Voice]

1 hour ago, Overwatch said:

It really would be nice if we all would pitch in and help care for each other. That way we ALL could be RICH!!!!   and healthy. I mean the only society I know of that did that was the population of The City of Enoch. Even the saints got wrecked on the principal of consecration and had to downgrade to tithing of 10% . At this time it is only a dream 

There are a few more societies that have done this in the past.  The people in the Americas after being visited by Christ lived the law of consecration for about one hundred fifty to two hundred years.  Some of the Saints under the first Apostles also had "all things common among them" (see  the book of 4th Nephi verse 3).  Then the people who lived under Melchizedek may have also had this society but I can find no record of it.

Edited May 30, 2018 by Still_Small_Voice

[Overwatch]

15 minutes ago, Still_Small_Voice said:

There are a few more societies that have done this in the past.  The people in the Americas after being visited by Christ lived the law of consecration for about one hundred fifty to two hundred years.  Some of the Saints under the first Apostles also had "all things common among them" (see  the book of 4th Nephi verse 3).  Then the people who lived under Melchizedek may have also had this society but I can find no record of it.

That... is actually very true ( about the Nephites)

I am so fascinated by The City of Enoch that I forgot about the Nephites after the massive destruction and the visitation of The Lord.  So I guess we have one from each source. Nice.

[Vort]

2 hours ago, Overwatch said:

Even the saints got wrecked on the principal of consecration and had to downgrade to tithing of 10% .

This is actually not true. Tithing is an eternal principle, not merely an ersatz version of consecration for the less righteous. This is an interesting topic, worthy of its own thread, but I don't want to hijack this thread, so I won't say any more about that here.

[NeuroTypical]

Giving people money doesn't always help.  It isn't always what love looks like.  For example:

 

[Overwatch]

22 minutes ago, Vort said:

This is actually not true. Tithing is an eternal principle, not merely an ersatz version of consecration for the less righteous. This is an interesting topic, worthy of its own thread, but I don't want to hijack this thread, so I won't say any more about that here.

https://www.lds.org/manual/teachings-brigham-young/chapter-22?lang=eng

 

"Consecration is a willingness to give all and an acknowledgment that all we have belongs to our Father in Heaven.

I have looked upon the community of Latter-day Saints in vision and beheld them organized as one great family of heaven, each person performing his several duties in his line of industry, working for the good of the whole more than for individual aggrandizement; and in this I have beheld the most beautiful order that the mind of man can contemplate, and the grandest results for the up building of the Kingdom of God and the spread of righteousness upon the earth. Will this people ever come to this order of things? Are they now prepared to live according to that patriarchal order that will be organized among the true and faithful before God receives his own?"

 

Located in the link

While tithing is a holy principle consecration is even more so amazing. Just my opinion.

Also it actually fits right in with what we are talking about.

Edited May 30, 2018 by Overwatch
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[Overwatch]

30 minutes ago, Vort said:

This is actually not true. Tithing is an eternal principle, not merely an ersatz version of consecration for the less righteous. This is an interesting topic, worthy of its own thread, but I don't want to hijack this thread, so I won't say any more about that here.

Also... sorry, getting PMs.

Tithing is a wonderful thing and very much should be paid. It is for the benefit and blessing of the saints. Make no mistake about that.

[Guest MormonGator]

@NeuroTypical is exactly right. I'll go a step further. Just giving money to some people without supervision will probably harm or in some cases, kill them. 

[zil]

Tithing is paid whether or not one is living the law of consecration, and regardless of the way in which that law is administered.  Either way, tithing is paid from what the Lord has given into your stewardship.

[Overwatch]

9 minutes ago, MormonGator said:

@NeuroTypical is exactly right. I'll go a step further. Just giving money to some people without supervision will probably harm or in some cases, kill them. 

I am not sure how I feel about this statement.

[Guest MormonGator]

13 minutes ago, Overwatch said:

I am not sure how I feel about this statement.

Nate is a addicted to meth. 
Nate can't keep a job because of his addiction to meth.
Nate begs on the street to get money for his addiction.
Feeling sorry for him, you give him 5$ and drive off. 
Nate buys meth with your 5$
Nate overdoses and dies. 

Since Nate wouldn't have money for meth without you giving it to him, you are indirectly helping him die in order to feel good about yourself for the rest of the day. 

You= is not @Overwatch. Generic usage. 
 

Edited May 30, 2018 by MormonGator

[Overwatch]

6 minutes ago, MormonGator said:

Nate is a addicted to meth. 
Nate can't keep a job because of his addiction to meth.
Nate begs on the street to get money for his addiction.
Feeling sorry for him, you give him 5$ and drive off. 
Nate buys meth with your 5$
Nate overdoses and dies. 

Since Nate wouldn't have money for meth without you giving it to him, you are indirectly helping him die in order to feel good about yourself for the rest of the day. 

You= is not @Overwatch. Generic usage. 
 

Noooo lol my wife was talking to me and giving me a lesson on tithing and Consecration and I timed out (apparently while practicing consecration ANY free will offering is tithing and not confined to the previous 10%)

[Overwatch]

8 minutes ago, MormonGator said:

Nate is a addicted to meth. 
Nate can't keep a job because of his addiction to meth.
Nate begs on the street to get money for his addiction.
Feeling sorry for him, you give him 5$ and drive off. 
Nate buys meth with your 5$
Nate overdoses and dies. 

Since Nate wouldn't have money for meth without you giving it to him, you are indirectly helping him die in order to feel good about yourself for the rest of the day. 

You= is not @Overwatch. Generic usage. 
 

okay. Let's see.

You will still be blessed for sharing your goods.

Nate could have used the money given and his free agency, to buy an egg muffin

If you know Nate is an addict then I can imagine The Holy Ghost will give you prompting to what you should do to help him.

While Nate's death would be sad, it would not matter to me the way you think it might. I have lost war brothers and sisters while deployed. They died so Nate could use his Free agency as he desired. Christ Died so that we could be saved from our bad choices.

The Lord knows THE WHOLE picture. He is our advocate with the Father.

 

[Guest MormonGator]

12 minutes ago, Overwatch said:

You will still be blessed for sharing your goods.

You will be blessed in your own mind. You drive away feeling good about yourself, patting yourself on the back and thinking about how wonderful and compassionate you are while Nate dies. 

12 minutes ago, Overwatch said:

While Nate's death would be sad, it would not matter to me the way you think it might. I have lost war brothers and sisters while deployed. They died so Nate could use his Free agency as he desired.

Thank you for your service to the country. 

I lost one of my best friends in a canyon accident last year. It still effects me. Apparently we view death very differently.   If Nate died and you feel nothing, that's something you need to work on. 

12 minutes ago, Overwatch said:

Christ Died so that we could be saved from our bad choices.

He did die so that all of us could be saved,  but that doesn't justify making bad choices. 

Edited May 30, 2018 by MormonGator

[zil]

20 minutes ago, Overwatch said:

Noooo lol my wife was talking to me and giving me a lesson on tithing and Consecration and I timed out (apparently while practicing consecration ANY free will offering is tithing and not confined to the previous 10%)

No.  Tithing is always 10% of your interest annually, regardless of the way in which the law of consecration is administered.

[Overwatch]

1 minute ago, MormonGator said:

You will be blessed in your own mind. You drive away feeling good about yourself, patting yourself on the back and thinking about how wonderful and compassionate you are while Nate dies. 

If I had no prior knowledge of his addiction I would be just fine. I'd reach over and give myself a pat with each hand

2 minutes ago, MormonGator said:

Thank you for your service to the country.

Hey, thanks for saying thanks C :

3 minutes ago, MormonGator said:

lost one of my best friends in a canyon accident last year. It still effects me. Apparently we view death very differently.   If Nate died and you feel nothing, that's something you need to work on

I am sorry for your loss. We do view death differently I am sure.  If Nate died: No, I most likely would not feeling anything other than the need to get down on my knees and pray to God that He may have mercy on his soul.

5 minutes ago, MormonGator said:

He did die so that all of us could be saved,  but that doesn't justify making bad choices. 

He does not justify sin. He does however know the whole picture. Once the demon takes over Nate and his constant urge for drugs, without help from those who love him, he most likely will be lost (however the Lord knows his full story and will judge accordingly)

[Overwatch]

4 minutes ago, zil said:

No.  Tithing is always 10% of your interest annually, regardless of the way in which the law of consecration is administered.

I'll let my wife know. She got her degree from BYU so I figured she told me the truth.

[Overwatch]

7 minutes ago, zil said:

No.  Tithing is always 10% of your interest annually, regardless of the way in which the law of consecration is administered.

Follow up: The Mrs. Wants your source.

[zil]

Just now, Overwatch said:

Follow up: The Mrs. Wants your source.

Life.  Scripture.  Probably some stuff Nibley wrote that got me to thinking harder.  I suppose there's more than one way to look at it - if she's got a source, I'll gladly study - but the scripture in the D&C which explains tithing makes it pretty clear it's an eternal principle regardless, and we are now under covenant to live the law of consecration (administered individually, rather than communally), and we still pay tithing.

[Overwatch]

1 minute ago, zil said:

Life.  Scripture.  Probably some stuff Nibley wrote that got me to thinking harder.  I suppose there's more than one way to look at it - if she's got a source, I'll gladly study - but the scripture in the D&C which explains tithing makes it pretty clear it's an eternal principle regardless, and we are now under covenant to live the law of consecration (administered individually, rather than communally), and we still pay tithing.

No worries. Let me copy this and forward it to her C :

[Overwatch]

14 minutes ago, zil said:

Life.  Scripture.  Probably some stuff Nibley wrote that got me to thinking harder.  I suppose there's more than one way to look at it - if she's got a source, I'll gladly study - but the scripture in the D&C which explains tithing makes it pretty clear it's an eternal principle regardless, and we are now under covenant to live the law of consecration (administered individually, rather than communally), and we still pay tithing. 

D & C section 119

Revelation given through Joseph Smith the Prophet, at Far West, Missouri, July 8, 1838, in answer to his supplication: “O Lord! Show unto thy servants how much thou requirest of the properties of thy people for a tithing.” The law of tithing, as understood today, had not been given to the Church previous to this revelation. The term tithing in the prayer just quoted and in previous revelations (64:23; 85:3; 97:11) had meant not just one-tenth, but all free-will offerings, or contributions, to the Church funds. The Lord had previously given to the Church the law of consecration and stewardship of property, which members (chiefly the leading elders) entered into by a covenant that was to be everlasting. Because of failure on the part of many to abide by this covenant, the Lord withdrew it for a time and gave instead the law of tithing to the whole Church. The Prophet asked the Lord how much of their property He required for sacred purposes. The answer was this revelation.

 

 

https://www.lds.org/scriptures/dc-testament/dc/119

-Apparently the saints failed to live up to the standards of Consecration so The Lord issued them a 10% Tithe

You ladies can hash that out if you want. I am off this top for now XD

Edited May 30, 2018 by Overwatch
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