Even Heaven Is Miserable To The Wicked.

[a-train]

I have often heard it said that if we are given the opportunity to choose our destiny on Judgement Day, if we are unworthy of Heaven, we will feel more comfortable choosing to live in Hell outside the presence of God. I had never really known that to be scriptural until I read this verse:

'Behold, I say unto you that ye would be more miserable to dwell with a holy and just God, under a consciousness of your filthiness before him, than ye would to dwell with the damned souls in hell.' (Mor. 9:4)

It gives greater depth to:

'Let thy bowels also be full of charity towards all men, and to the household of faith, and let virtue garnish thy thoughts unceasingly; then shall thy confidence wax strong in the presence of God; and the doctrine of the priesthood shall distil upon thy soul as the dews from heaven.' (D&C 121:45)

Thoughts?

-a-train

[prisonchaplain]

There is certainly a sense in which the OP is true. Nevertheless, we ought to understand hell, or "the outer darkness," as a place of judgment, and of God's justice--not as Heavenly Father simply finding the best, happiest place for the soul to go to.

[a-train]

There is certainly a sense in which the OP is true. Nevertheless, we ought to understand hell, or "the outer darkness," as a place of judgment, and of God's justice--not as Heavenly Father simply finding the best, happiest place for the soul to go to.

Not nitpicking, but hell and outer darkness are two very different things in LDS teaching. Hell in the scriptural sense is the residence of the dead. However, those whose glory is telestial are also considered to be in hell (D&C 76:84). However, the telestial kingdom and the residence of the dead are not to be confused, they are very different. Outer darkness is symbolized by a lake of fire (D&C 76:36). Hell, the residence of the dead, will be 'cast into the lake of fire'. (Rev 20:14)

Certainly the punishment of the wicked is great, but perhaps the worm that dieth not, and the fire that is not quenched is the terrible feeling of guilt.

-a-train

[prisonchaplain]

My main concern is that we are so averse to "fire and brimstone" messages, that we downplay the judgment of God. I don't like to talk about hell, but sometimes we gotta.

[a-train]

I actually like the fire and brimstone sermons.

-a-train

[Old Tex]

I actually like the fire and brimstone sermons.

-a-train

Then you should have been taken to some of the meetings I was taken to when I was young. There were some screaming, sweating, fire breathing "bible-thumpers" in those tent meeting revivals in the 1930s that would (pardon the pun) scare the hell out of you if you were a seven year old kid. I heard that the tent smelled like sulfer the rest of the night.

[CrimsonKairos]

I totally agree with a-train's original point: the wicked wouldn't want to dwell with God even if He'd let them.

Look around you on Sunday, and you'll see people in Church---perhaps friends---who are working through some sins or who just don't want to be at Church but go for some other reason. Do we really think that sort of person (I've been that person, by the way) would want to mingle with heavenly choirs singing praises to God?

I don't think so. God's plan truly is the Plan of Happiness, for we all get what we want, and unfortunately, not all of us want to return to God's presence.

As for the hell/outer darkness/brimstone thing...ahem...*CK summons a podium with the flick of his finger, and magically adopts the garb of a baptist minister*

"You've got to pray-ah, and you've got to plead-ah, with God-ah, to save your souls-ah, cuz the wicked-ah are gonna' burn in hell-ah, forever-ah!"

(Sorry, but I couldn't help that parody. I went to another church with a friend once and the minister added an "ah" to the end of like every third word...it was pretty amusing to me, but that's because of my LDS upbringing :))

[Old Tex]

My main concern is that we are so averse to "fire and brimstone" messages, that we downplay the judgment of God. I don't like to talk about hell, but sometimes we gotta.

Being raised Baptist, I have heard my share of sermons about hell. Two things (among the many) that I found different in the Baptist and the LDS is, (1) after attending LDS services for several weeks, I realized that I saw no collection plate being passed, and (2) all talks were positive, and were about a loving Heavenly Father who was anxious for you to return to Him. No talks about hell. No one trying to "scare" people in "Heaven". To me, both of these things are belittling in nature and designed to apply pressure to a person.

That's not to say that LDS do not have a good understanding of the negative side of life and the consequences of choosing to reject the Atonement of Christ, but they don't seek to use it as "leverage" with anyone. It is one thing to make someone aware of both sides of the issue, but there is no need to "threaten" one with it, and that's what some seem to do, or used to do when I was more aware of what was going on in the non LDS religious world. Maybe it's no longer that way in most churches now.

But many is the time that "Christians" have said to LDS, "You Mormons are going to hell". I just wish that type of "Christian" would leave us alone and let us go to hell peacefully.

[prisonchaplain]

Lots of churches and minister avoid talking about hell, these days. I might teach on it once a year, at the most. However, hell is in the Bible, and I'd be remiss to totally abandon the subject.

[Traveler]

Hell as it is used in the Bible is another term for "Death". We are all going to die.

But I would put forth my concept. G-d, first and formost is loving, compassionate, kind and full of grace. A couple of things that I also believe is that no man - regardless of what they have done or said is without some good in their soul. If nothing else we must know and understand that G-d loves us all. Both the righteous and wicked; he loves with complete love. I believe G-d will grant the desires of a man's heart - if a man desires good then G-d responds in kind. If a man's heart desires evil - G-d will not with hold that from him.

I have said many times - I do not nor can I believe that any soul will be in hell that truly desires to be somewhere else. Do not blame G-d for where a soul ends up, for it is the choice of that man and not G-d. Clearly G-d desires all to live forever in heaven with him. If the choice was G-d's there would be no one in hell - no, not one soul. But G-d will not force his will, that is the difference between G-d and Satan. Satan will force what ever he can whenever he can - but G-d does not force anyone to heaven or hell. It is and always will be the choice of man. How can a person chose what they do not want? - that is not a choice. Only if a person wants something is that a choice.

The Traveler

[sgallan]

FWIW.... even if any possible version of God could be proven, as a "godless heathen" I can't say I have seen a single version where I would want to spend an eternity with that posited God, or his/her/it's adherents. For example; the LDS version of God is an awful lot like really conservative white people who predominantly live in the intermountain west portion of the USA.

Now I am not saying these people, or their version of God, is bad. Just that I personally wouldn't want to live a year in that environment, much less an eternity. For those who truly believe in this theology.... dang, it doesn't get much better. But for those who do not "fit in" (for lack of a better term), it would be a version of h*ll.

I could say the same about virtually any God/H*ll based theology. For those who are not true believers.... both options are basically h*ll.

Just my .02.

[prisonchaplain]

Scott, it might be useful for you to describe what your version of heaven/paradise would look like.

[Dr T]

I don't believe that God would fellowship with evil in heaven.

[Elphaba]

Have any of you heard about the Marine who committed suicide in Iraq? A senior noncommissioned officer told his three friends that they “could get through this and needed to realize that their deceased comrade was right then burning in hell.”

This was not the chaplain, who was “flabbergasted” at the NCO imposing his religious views. The marines approached him for his opinion, and he gave it to them in the hope that it would mitigate their hurt.

"From my understanding, God did not make any of us on earth the ultimate judge, jury, and executioner," he told them. "And if I am correct, I should be the only theologian attached to this Marine unit.... Ultimately, God is your friend's judge,"

I was just wondering what you guys thought about what happened here.

Elphaba

[tiancum]

they “could get through this and needed to realize that their deceased comrade was right then burning in hell.”

what a shame.

nope. I don't agree with what the NCO said. the only way he would know is if God told him personally. MAybe he was drunk.

[sixpacktr]

I totally agree with a-train's original point: the wicked wouldn't want to dwell with God even if He'd let them.

Look around you on Sunday, and you'll see people in Church---perhaps friends---who are working through some sins or who just don't want to be at Church but go for some other reason. Do we really think that sort of person (I've been that person, by the way) would want to mingle with heavenly choirs singing praises to God?

I don't think so. God's plan truly is the Plan of Happiness, for we all get what we want, and unfortunately, not all of us want to return to God's presence.

As for the hell/outer darkness/brimstone thing...ahem...*CK summons a podium with the flick of his finger, and magically adopts the garb of a baptist minister*

"You've got to pray-ah, and you've got to plead-ah, with God-ah, to save your souls-ah, cuz the wicked-ah are gonna' burn in hell-ah, forever-ah!"

(Sorry, but I couldn't help that parody. I went to another church with a friend once and the minister added an "ah" to the end of like every third word...it was pretty amusing to me, but that's because of my LDS upbringing :))

agreed. Think of your own life now. To me, there is no greater hell on earth than to be living in a crowded city, with people everywhere all the time. My own version of heaven would be somewhere in Montana where my closest neighbor was a mile or so away so they'd leave me the heck alone.

My wife is the EXACT opposite of that, although I have brought her more to my side...I don't know how we are going to handle eternity together! Maybe a winter and summer home (or something akin to that??)?

Sometimes in church you can see people that are very uncomfortable, for whatever reason. I'm not judging them, but if being in the presence of hypocrites and sinners (which we all are!) bothers them, just think how bad it would be under 'the all-seeing eye of a just God' that knows every last sinful tendency and thought we have...

[sgallan]

"Scott, it might be useful for you to describe what your version of heaven/paradise would look like."

For starters a heaven with a God that didn't exclude pretty much everybody (and even allow their eternal torture - depending on the version) would be nice.

[prisonchaplain]

For starters a heaven with a God that didn't exclude pretty much everybody (and even allow their eternal torture - depending on the version) would be nice.

So, you'd be okay with a heaven that included people like Rev. Fred Phelps (Westboro Baptist Church)?

[rosie321]

<div class='quotemain'>

I totally agree with a-train's original point: the wicked wouldn't want to dwell with God even if He'd let them.

Look around you on Sunday, and you'll see people in Church---perhaps friends---who are working through some sins or who just don't want to be at Church but go for some other reason. Do we really think that sort of person (I've been that person, by the way) would want to mingle with heavenly choirs singing praises to God?

I don't think so. God's plan truly is the Plan of Happiness, for we all get what we want, and unfortunately, not all of us want to return to God's presence.

As for the hell/outer darkness/brimstone thing...ahem...*CK summons a podium with the flick of his finger, and magically adopts the garb of a baptist minister*

"You've got to pray-ah, and you've got to plead-ah, with God-ah, to save your souls-ah, cuz the wicked-ah are gonna' burn in hell-ah, forever-ah!"

(Sorry, but I couldn't help that parody. I went to another church with a friend once and the minister added an "ah" to the end of like every third word...it was pretty amusing to me, but that's because of my LDS upbringing :))

agreed. Think of your own life now. To me, there is no greater hell on earth than to be living in a crowded city, with people everywhere all the time. My own version of heaven would be somewhere in Montana where my closest neighbor was a mile or so away so they'd leave me the heck alone.

My wife is the EXACT opposite of that, although I have brought her more to my side...I don't know how we are going to handle eternity together! Maybe a winter and summer home (or something akin to that??)?

Sometimes in church you can see people that are very uncomfortable, for whatever reason. I'm not judging them, but if being in the presence of hypocrites and sinners (which we all are!) bothers them, just think how bad it would be under 'the all-seeing eye of a just God' that knows every last sinful tendency and thought we have...

I'm with you on the crowded part. I hate to see how much people change when in a group. (The change is not usually for the good ).

As far as the uncomfortability aspect of what you said Six, I'd much rather be under the watchful all seeing eye of God then others who can not see the complete plan God has for my life or how he will bring to pass His plan for me. I've seen some heartbreaking instances where people have stepped outside of their bounds to make others feel uncomfortable, lose faith and trust in God, and in His plan for their life .

Church and the people in it are not always a perfect reflection of what God intended therefore by interacting with others all will be uncomfortable in church at some point at time There's nothing wrong with that. Those feelings can be helpful in directing people to whats God's will and not. Just pray to God, read scriptures as asked, follow in His footsteps and trust God to do the rest

This is a good post. Why would anyone want to spend eternity in Heaven with a God they do not know? I can't imagine that they'd be anything but miserable either.

The good thing is those that work to make others lives miserable probably won't be there so I don't have to worry to bad about being miserable in heaven like it might be possible at church. A lot of people that go to church probably won't be there.

That is of course if I make it myself

[sixpacktr]

As far as the uncomfortability aspect of what you said Six, I'd much rather be under the watchful all seeing eye of God then others who can not see the complete plan God has for my life or how he will bring to pass His plan for me.

Let me clarify what I meant. Once we have an opportunity to meet with our HF and KNOW, beyond all doubt, that we didn't live up to our potential and that we rejected the offering of the Savior to stand in our place, I believe that is what King Benjamin was speaking of when he talked of the 'worm that dieth not' and 'eternal flame' of shame. Our HF is all knowing, perfectly kind and loving, but WE would be so savaged by our short-sightedness and laziness while here in doing what we knew to be right (and I'm not speaking simply of church members, but all members of the human race. We are judged according to the light we had, remember), that we would feel so bad that we DISAPPOINTED our HF and that it would be too uncomfortable to live with him. He wants us there, but WE will be the ones that will shy away because we will know then we don't belong.

It is kind of like (and this is a very loose analogy, granted, but it kind of works) when we have said something nasty about someone, that person finds out about it, and we run into that person somewhere. If you have any type of conscience, you feel about 1" high and wish you could get away as quickly as possible, especially if that person treats you kindly.

To me, it would be the same type of discomfort, multiplied a google times...

[rosie321]

<div class='quotemain'>

As far as the uncomfortability aspect of what you said Six, I'd much rather be under the watchful all seeing eye of God then others who can not see the complete plan God has for my life or how he will bring to pass His plan for me.

Let me clarify what I meant. Once we have an opportunity to meet with our HF and KNOW, beyond all doubt, that we didn't live up to our potential and that we rejected the offering of the Savior to stand in our place, I believe that is what King Benjamin was speaking of when he talked of the 'worm that dieth not' and 'eternal flame' of shame. Our HF is all knowing, perfectly kind and loving, but WE would be so savaged by our short-sightedness and laziness while here in doing what we knew to be right (and I'm not speaking simply of church members, but all members of the human race. We are judged according to the light we had, remember), that we would feel so bad that we DISAPPOINTED our HF and that it would be too uncomfortable to live with him. He wants us there, but WE will be the ones that will shy away because we will know then we don't belong.

It is kind of like (and this is a very loose analogy, granted, but it kind of works) when we have said something nasty about someone, that person finds out about it, and we run into that person somewhere. If you have any type of conscience, you feel about 1" high and wish you could get away as quickly as possible, especially if that person treats you kindly.

To me, it would be the same type of discomfort, multiplied a google times...

agree 100% with you. That doesn't happen often does it B) ?

[sixpacktr]

<div class='quotemain'>

<div class='quotemain'>

As far as the uncomfortability aspect of what you said Six, I'd much rather be under the watchful all seeing eye of God then others who can not see the complete plan God has for my life or how he will bring to pass His plan for me.

Let me clarify what I meant. Once we have an opportunity to meet with our HF and KNOW, beyond all doubt, that we didn't live up to our potential and that we rejected the offering of the Savior to stand in our place, I believe that is what King Benjamin was speaking of when he talked of the 'worm that dieth not' and 'eternal flame' of shame. Our HF is all knowing, perfectly kind and loving, but WE would be so savaged by our short-sightedness and laziness while here in doing what we knew to be right (and I'm not speaking simply of church members, but all members of the human race. We are judged according to the light we had, remember), that we would feel so bad that we DISAPPOINTED our HF and that it would be too uncomfortable to live with him. He wants us there, but WE will be the ones that will shy away because we will know then we don't belong.

It is kind of like (and this is a very loose analogy, granted, but it kind of works) when we have said something nasty about someone, that person finds out about it, and we run into that person somewhere. If you have any type of conscience, you feel about 1" high and wish you could get away as quickly as possible, especially if that person treats you kindly.

To me, it would be the same type of discomfort, multiplied a google times...

agree 100% with you. That doesn't happen often does it B) ?

yaay!

[sgallan]

So, you'd be okay with a heaven that included people like Rev. Fred Phelps (Westboro Baptist Church)?

Ironically he has a better chance of getting to the Christian heaven then I do.

[onyx]

I have often heard it said that if we are given the opportunity to choose our destiny on Judgement Day, if we are unworthy of Heaven, we will feel more comfortable choosing to live in Hell outside the presence of God. I had never really known that to be scriptural until I read this verse:

'Behold, I say unto you that ye would be more miserable to dwell with a holy and just God, under a consciousness of your filthiness before him, than ye would to dwell with the damned souls in hell.' (Mor. 9:4)

It gives greater depth to:

'Let thy bowels also be full of charity towards all men, and to the household of faith, and let virtue garnish thy thoughts unceasingly; then shall thy confidence wax strong in the presence of God; and the doctrine of the priesthood shall distil upon thy soul as the dews from heaven.' (D&C 121:45)

Thoughts?

-a-train

Hey A-train,

As always you have presented a really interesting OP.

I am particularly interested in your opening sentence:

"...if we are given the opportunity to choose our destiny on Judgement Day"

It would seem that we are given that opportunity long before the BIG day.

When judgement arrives we will have already chosen our destiny.

I like the way President Lee puts it:

http://www.lds.org/portal/site/LDSOrg/menu..._&hideNav=1

“We are our own judges of the place we shall have in the eternal world. Here and now in mortality each one of us is having the opportunity of choosing the kind of laws we elect to obey.

We are now living and obeying celestial laws that will make us candidates for celestial glory; or we are living terrestrial laws that will make us candidates for terrestrial glory; or telestial.

The place we shall occupy in the eternal worlds will be determined by the obedience we yield to the laws of these various kingdoms during the time we have here in mortality.”

(“A Sure Trumpet Sound: Quotations from President Lee,” Ensign, Feb 1974, 77)

Thanks for the thread - Certainly food for thought!

Onyx

[rosie321]

yaay!

When I think of judgement day/heaven I can't help but think of Matthew 25, particularly the section vs 31 and on. where Christ seperates the sheep and the goats. The righteous are so wrapped up in doing that they are not concerned with how things appear here on earth. They reach out to everyone. After all their work, they are still humbled in the presences of God. Scriptures say that "all knees shall bow." In a way you see the righteous humbled before God. They are shocked when God commends them for helping Him.

Then He rewards the righteous and recieves them into His Kingdom. The wicked on the other hand brag about what they have done. They are crushed, as stated in other posts by what they haven't done. There is no turning back the clock at that time

IMO heaven will be filled with a lot of humbled people, who have spent their time, however long, working to serve the Lord the best they can. These will be people who recognize the joy and have a heart full of gratitude.