Mormon and gay. Where are we going?

[BJ64]

2 minutes ago, Anddenex said:

Ok, if you say so. My testosterone level doesn't control me, but if you want to use the excuse of testosterone level controlling you, that is your choice. I kept chaste because I was in control. I keep chaste because I am in control. If my testosterone level controlled me I wouldn't be chaste. The temptation not to obey the commandment isn't controlling, it is a temptation, otherwise Satan would be the most controlling person, but we no he has no control but can surely tempt.

I kept chaste and keep chaste as well. If you have a low testosterone level, being chaste is much easier than if you have a high testosterone level. If you haven’t had you level tested and you haven’t moved your level up and down you would not notice the profound effect it has on you. Not only sex drive but other things as well such as aggressiveness and assertiveness.    

[Grunt]

On 7/17/2018 at 3:37 PM, lostinwater said:

@BJ64

This is absolutely amazing.  Saying thank-you doesn't even come close to being adequate. 

This article only talks about LGBT, but i feel it applies to biologically intersexed people also.  

Seriously though, this is required reading.  

Amazing?  Sure.  If you think the church is wrong and homosexuality should be welcomed with open arms.  That's certainly the closing argument.

[Vort]

6 hours ago, lostinwater said:

It's certainly a common notion that everyone who is part of the LGBT community is a pedophile/pervert that marches in gay pride parades in flamboyant clothing in between their attempts to desegregate bathrooms, have homosexuality taught at the public schools, and deliberate attempting to destroy the institution of marriage between a man and a woman.

It's also a common notion that mainstream Mormons actively practice polygamy, engage in evil masonic rituals in their temples, worship Joseph Smith as a God, do not believe in the Bible, and are not Christians.

Mormons, mainstream or not, do not parade through the streets to show off their wives and enlist the aid of large corporations and even governments to sponsor "Pride' events celebrating their polygamous preferences. The two communities are not comparable.

[lostinwater]

5 minutes ago, Grunt said:

Amazing?  Sure.  If you think the church is wrong and homosexuality should be welcomed with open arms.  That's certainly the closing argument.

Thanks @Grunt

No welcome demanded.  i get why the people in the Mormon church do what they do - and i know it's with the best of intentions.  It's fine.  Thought it was an amazing article regardless- and portrays an alternative point of view i thought others would appreciate - but that's just my opinion.

[Anddenex]

4 minutes ago, BJ64 said:

I kept chaste and keep chaste as well. If you have a low testosterone level, being chaste is much easier than if you have a high testosterone level. If you haven’t had you level tested and you haven’t moved your level up and down you would not notice the profound effect it has on you. Not only sex drive but other things as well such as aggressiveness and assertiveness.    

If I were to jump into a river the river would "act upon" me in the same way testosterone levels "act upon" us. The river speed will determine how fast I flow down stream, or how easily I am able to swim against the current. I remain independent of the river, just as my moral agency remains independent of my testosterone level. Otherwise there is no temptation, we become subjects to be acted upon, rather than to act for ourselves. When in the river I am able to swim right, left, up river or flow with the river. It "acts upon" -- it doesn't control me -- as I am still able to act for myself.

The level of my testosterone doesn't control me, it may like the river "act upon" me, but does not control the decision I make. I control, and I alone, control the decision the choice I make. That decision being either to go with the flow or to stand against it. Testosterone level doesn't control me, it acts upon me.

[Vort]

3 hours ago, MormonGator said:

So if you are a good person who doesn't lie, cheat, steal-you should change? 

Sure. You should become better.

[Vort]

1 hour ago, askandanswer said:

Of course. You should become a better person who doesn't lie, cheat or steal. 

D'oh.

[lostinwater]

2 minutes ago, Vort said:

Mormons, mainstream or not, do not parade through the streets to show off their wives and enlist the aid of large corporations and even governments to sponsor "Pride' events celebrating their polygamous preferences. The two communities are not comparable.

Thanks @Vort

Agree!  Not comparable.  And i'd say that most people who are lesbian, gay, etc., - do not march in the parade - and are rather normal people that have been caricatured as something not at all like what they are.  Similar to how many Mormons are associated (incorrectly) with the things listed above.  That i guess, was the point i was trying to get across.  Not to try and draw a correlation between the two. 

Likening the Mormon church to the most outspoken gay pride activists would be a *very* weird correlation to make.   

[askandanswer]

2 minutes ago, Vort said:

D'oh.

Just d'oh it - become better, that it. 

[Vort]

11 hours ago, MormonGator said:

Agree 100%. 

It's very easy to tell someone what they should do when they aren't that person. 

Yet that is what every faithful missionary -- which is to say, every faithful Latter-day Saint -- does.

[Guest MormonGator]

1 minute ago, Vort said:

Yet that is what every faithful missionary -- which is to say, every faithful Latter-day Saint -- does.

Maybe that's why conversion rates aren't doing so well then. 

[Vort]

Just now, MormonGator said:

Maybe that's why conversion rates aren't doing so well then. 

So be it. We have a divine commission, and if we are to be sons of Christ, we must fulfill our duties. Conversion rates per se are of absolutely no direct concern, to us or to anyone else in God's kingdom.

[Guest MormonGator]

Just now, Vort said:

So be it. We have a divine commission, and if we are to be sons of Christ, we must fulfill our duties. Conversion rates per se are of absolutely no direct concern, to us or to anyone else in God's kingdom.

Joking, not a serious comment. 

[Vort]

1 minute ago, MormonGator said:

Joking, not a serious comment. 

I took it as truth in jest and decided to respond straight. I believe what I wrote.

Conversion rates are a metric of what we're trying to accomplish, which cannot be measured directly: Namely, proclaiming Christ's atonement to all. We assume a tight correlation between conversion rates and missionary activity (probably correctly), which leads many Latter-day Saints to the wrong conclusion that it's the baptisms themselves that we most prize.

This is incorrect. Obviously, we value baptisms because they represent children of God making covenants with him. But baptisms are a by-product of what we personally find important, which is obeying God. Abinadi gave his life for his missionary work, and did not see a single conversion before his execution. As far as we know, he made only ONE SINGLE CONVERT in all his efforts, culminating in his fiery death.

Now, we all know that that one single convert, Alma (the elder), founded a church among the Nephites and was directly responsible for bringing thousands into the fold. He was the Joseph Smith of the Nephite nation. But I maintain that even if Abinadi's best efforts had not reached Alma, that would have made no difference to Abinadi's state. He was obedient even unto death. That is what we strive for.

[Guest MormonGator]

24 minutes ago, Vort said:

I took it as truth in jest and decided to respond straight. 

You would be terrible company at a comedy club dude. 
 

24 minutes ago, Vort said:

Conversion rates are a metric of what we're trying to accomplish, which cannot be measured directly: Namely, proclaiming Christ's atonement to all. We assume a tight correlation between conversion rates and missionary activity (probably correctly), which leads many Latter-day Saints to the wrong conclusion that it's the baptisms themselves that we most prize.

This is incorrect. Obviously, we value baptisms because they represent children of God making covenants with him. But baptisms are a by-product of what we personally find important, which is obeying God. Abinadi gave his life for his missionary work, and did not see a single conversion before his execution. As far as we know, he made only ONE SINGLE CONVERT in all his efforts, culminating in his fiery death.

Now, we all know that that one single convert, Alma (the elder), founded a church among the Nephites and was directly responsible for bringing thousands into the fold. He was the Joseph Smith of the Nephite nation. But I maintain that even if Abinadi's best efforts had not reached Alma, that would have made no difference to Abinadi's state. He was obedient even unto death. That is what we strive for.

 

Makes sense. Thanks! 

Edited July 19, 2018 by MormonGator

[Grunt]

21 minutes ago, MormonGator said:

Maybe that's why conversion rates aren't doing so well then. 

So be it.  We wouldn't be doing people any good if we decided not to follow God so we could convert more people who ultimately would be no better off than before they converted.

[Vort]

13 minutes ago, MormonGator said:

You would terrible company at a comedy club dude. 

I'd be the guy making just-audible comments about how the comedian just wasn't viewing the situation correctly and how he would understand things better if his grasp of logic were stronger.

[Guest MormonGator]

5 minutes ago, Grunt said:

So be it.  

Again, that comment was a joke. 

 

Just now, Vort said:

I'd be the guy making just-audible comments about how the comedian just wasn't viewing the situation correctly and how he would understand things better if his grasp of logic were stronger.

I knew a guy who used to do that in college. He died alone. 

[Vort]

1 minute ago, MormonGator said:

I knew a guy who used to do that in college. He died alone.

Probably in a back alley after a beating by erstwhile friends who just got tired of his comments.

[Guest MormonGator]

Just now, Vort said:

Probably in a back alley after a beating by erstwhile friends who just got tired of his comments.

Who told you!? I thought we paid off the cops and the witnesses. 
 

(@mirkwood kindly ignore this conversation)

[Vort]

1 minute ago, MormonGator said:

Who told you!? I thought we paid off the cops and the witnesses.

News flash: I DIDN'T DIE.

You gotta finish what you start, dude...

[Guest MormonGator]

Just now, Vort said:

News flash: I DIDN'T DIE.

You gotta finish what you start, dude...

hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha. 

You misunderstood-I said college friend. I graduated in 2007. You graduated in 1947.

[Vort]

Just now, MormonGator said:

hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha. 

You misunderstood-I said college friend. I graduated in 2007. You graduated in 1947.

I graduated in the top 99% of my premortal class in spiritual sensitivity. That's right, the top 99%. That was probably around 1947.

[BJ64]

1 hour ago, Anddenex said:

If I were to jump into a river the river would "act upon" me in the same way testosterone levels "act upon" us. The river speed will determine how fast I flow down stream, or how easily I am able to swim against the current. I remain independent of the river, just as my moral agency remains independent of my testosterone level. Otherwise there is no temptation, we become subjects to be acted upon, rather than to act for ourselves. When in the river I am able to swim right, left, up river or flow with the river. It "acts upon" -- it doesn't control me -- as I am still able to act for myself.

The level of my testosterone doesn't control me, it may like the river "act upon" me, but does not control the decision I make. I control, and I alone, control the decision the choice I make. That decision being either to go with the flow or to stand against it. Testosterone level doesn't control me, it acts upon me.

You don’t understand the effect of testosterone so there no point in discussing it with you. 

Edited July 19, 2018 by BJ64

[Anddenex]

16 minutes ago, BJ64 said:

You don’t understand the effect of testosterone so there no point in discussing it with you. 

OK, you don't understand the doctrine of moral agency and control so agreed there is no point in discussing it with you. 🙄