This is distressing...

[Vort]

58 minutes ago, Traveler said:

Also as far as I know - the only cognitive behavior that anyone has ever suggested in our modern culture that may not be acquired, is sexual behaviors (but we still believe in sex education?)

Just amazing, isn't it?

[carlimac]

9 hours ago, anatess2 said:

I'm thinking you learned about the Catholic membership and not necessarily the Catholic church.  In the same manner that the issue with Joseph Bishop and the varied Mormon reactions to it informed you about the Mormon membership and not necessarily the Church. 

"more practical solutions of rooting out all the gay priests. Some say that could be up to 50% of them." is a non-Catholic viewpoint.  The Catholic Church ordinances include 2 ordinances that are exclusive of each other:  Holy Matrimony and Holy Orders.  You can either take Holy Matrimony OR Holy Orders.  Now, the Mormon Church has one path - Eternal Marriage.  Gays may abstain awaiting resolution after mortal existence.  The Catholic Church has 2 paths, gays are encouraged to take the vow of celibacy and commit to Holy Orders.  There are no ordinances after death in the Catholic faith. 

And here's another non-Catholic viewpoint from the article which is also another cause of the disagreements between the Catholic Church and the people at large - "We are sick over all the crimes that will go unpunished and uncompensated," the grand jury said.  Secular justice only thinks of mortal justice.  It has ZERO consideration for spiritual justice.  In the Catholic point of view, this statement is not seeking punishment for there is no greater punishment than roasting in hell for all eternity.  Rather, this statement is seeking vengeance, a non-Catholic sentiment.  A Catholic making the covenant for Holy Orders has a responsibility to God so great that breaking that covenant is a grave sin worthy of eternal flames.  The Catholic penitent only has until his mortal death to repent.  Catholics don't believe in post-death repentance.  Putting a priest in the hands of secular justice without first establishing a spiritual pathway to redemption is putting a priest in a place where vengeance is the objective and not the salvation of one's soul.  It is sentencing that priest to eternal damnation especially as prisons are notorious for the risk of mental health deterioration and death by vigilante justice.

So, the secular community calls it "hiding the crime".  The Catholic institution is saving a man's soul.  It is their ultimate objective to go through the Canon Law process as much as possible to see the priest through the entire process of repentance - which includes redress of grievances of the victims. 

In addition, it is vengeance so great to demand a man be given to the devil to consider the victim compensated - that vengeance also puts the victim's soul in peril.  It is the duty of the Church to also help the victim on the path to Christ.

This line of thinking is so very puzzling to me.  Why does their mortal justice have to take the back seat while the bishops are "so called" trying to help them work out their spiritual justice before they die? It seems the perps are just shuffled around to other towns and have a whole new fresh venue  to attack. A new buffet to pick from.  All the while their original victims suffer knowing they are still out there. If they are true pedophiles, spiritual repentance alone isn't enough to reform them.  If you are a danger to people, you need to be taken out of circulation, put behind bars where you can't harm anyone else,  and then you'll have plenty of time to figure out your spiritual problems while you're in jail.  I really can't understand the idea of it being vengeance to put these men away. Instead of vengeance, I would call it " imperative for the safety of other children."  I would call it simply justice. They shouldn't get a pass! And so the environment of a jail isn't very church like. That's just too durn bad. Maybe they should have thought of that before molesting children. 

Another question I have is why would self affirmed gay men be encouraged to take a vow of celibacy, then thrown into a den of temptation with other gay men??? It just seems so counter intuitive. And for those who aren't gay before entering seminaries, wouldn't the incidence be higher of those who take on homosexual thoughts and behaviors after being violated by other men during their schooling? Truly, why would ANY hetero male, no matter how devoted to the Lord, want to go into the Holy Order and expose himself to that kind of danger if it is really that rampant? Seems to me there would be very few true heteros who become priests. 

If what you say about all this is true, I'm simply appalled. What simple logic am I missing that prevents me from understanding this line of reasoning.  Sounds like intentional obfuscation to me. 

 

 

Edited August 17, 2018 by carlimac

[carlimac]

4 hours ago, Traveler said:

There is a question (that at least I am willing to openly ask) if sexual attractions are cognitively learned (acquired) behaviors or if we were born with them (created by G-d with whatever sexual attractions and behaviors).  I believe the evidence is that sexual attractions are cognitively learned.  It would seem that some would argue that the trend is towards some behaviors will not be tolerated - but I am not so sure.  Within my life time I am seeing more "tolerance" for ever expanding sexual behaviors.   That more variety is being labeled in society as not just okay if you a little different but into a full scale celebration of anything other than biological parenting based behaviors.

 

The Traveler

Are you referring to all the young men in the Catholic schools who are molested by older men, and then become "homosexual" as a result? I just wonder what your question has to do with the PA Grand Jury findings. 

Edited August 17, 2018 by carlimac

[anatess2]

15 hours ago, carlimac said:

This line of thinking is so very puzzling to me.  Why does their mortal justice have to take the back seat while the bishops are "so called" trying to help them work out their spiritual justice before they die? It seems the perps are just shuffled around to other towns and have a whole new fresh venue  to attack.

This line of thinking is so very puzzling to me.  Why does their mortal justice have to take the back seat while the bishops are "so called" trying to help them work out their spiritual justice before they die? It seems the perps are just shuffled around to other towns and have a whole new fresh venue  to attack. A new buffet to pick from.  All the while their original victims suffer knowing they are still out there. If they are true pedophiles, spiritual repentance alone isn't enough to reform them.  If you are a danger to people, you need to be taken out of circulation, put behind bars where you can't harm anyone else,  and then you'll have plenty of time to figure out your spiritual problems while you're in jail.  I really can't understand the idea of it being vengeance to put these men away. Instead of vengeance, I would call it " imperative for the safety of other children."  I would call it simply justice. They shouldn't get a pass! And so the environment of a jail isn't very church like. That's just too durn bad. Maybe they should have thought of that before molesting children. 

Mortal justice does not "take a back seat".  And there's no "so called" about the process for delicta graviora.  You have a US Constitution, the Philippines have the Philippine Constitution, other countries have theirs.  Canon Law is the law of the Vatican.  Each of these laws are different from each other in their methods to address crimes committed.  But they're still addressing crimes committed.

I have been LDS and have not paid attention to Canon Law changes for almost 20 years.   Pope John Paul II's changes to this process was the last I've paid attention to.  So this info is a bit old, but I doubt it has changed since.  The canonical process for the redemption of a person who took the vow of Holy Orders and is accused with committing sexual abuse or personally confesses to such goes through these general steps:

1.)  A preliminary investigation is made, usually by the Bishop, to determine the validity of the accusation.  If the accusation/confession is credible, the priest is released of his public duties as soon as possible and assigned tasks where the priest is in safety from committing the sin.  The Bishop then calls... I can't remember what the office is called in the Vatican that handles this stuff.

2.) Another priest whose job is to investigate the crimes/sins is sent to assess the situation.  A more thorough investigation is made to determine the gravity of the sin to assess the proper penalty.  Depending on the gravity of the sin committed, the priest may be given varying penalties.  For example, sins such as breaking the vow of celibacy with a consensual adult partner usually results in the priest removed from public ministry but may continue to minister in private such as celebrate masses in monasteries or other non-public religious houses while they work through the sacrament of reconciliation and may be released for public ministry in a different region not easily accessible to his old one in short order. Grave sins such as pedophilia would cause the priest to be immediately sequestered (the secular world calls this "hiding the priest").  Usually they are sent to a monastery to live the life of a monk where they have very limited access to other priests and their daily tasks are limited to prayer and confession and penance.  They have no access to the public.  It may be determined through the investigation or the ongoing process of reconciliation that the priest is spiritually too weak to be released from sequestration for the rest of his life.  You may call this sentenced to life imprisonment if you like.

3.)  While in reconciliation, the priest goes through the entire process of spiritual change guided by a mentor.  All throughout this time, the victim/victims are also being mentored, as much as they are willing to be, to go through spiritual upliftment by their priests.  If and when the penitent priest and his victims are willing and ready, the priest may be given the opportunity to redress the grievance.

4.) Upon successful repentance as assessed by his mentor, the priest may be released slowly to ministry, and may be given a full restoration of his covenants to minister to the public to complete his reconciliation.  This is not much different from a criminal completing his sentence and released from prison.

The entire process is dedicated to the salvation of souls and the protection of the entire body of the Children of God.  Now, with the large clamoring of the secular public to inflict their own methods of justice, the Catholic Church has to balance Canon Law with secular law in their fulfillment of that goal.

 

15 hours ago, carlimac said:

Another question I have is why would self affirmed gay men be encouraged to take a vow of celibacy, then thrown into a den of temptation with other gay men??? It just seems so counter intuitive. And for those who aren't gay before entering seminaries, wouldn't the incidence be higher of those who take on homosexual thoughts and behaviors after being violated by other men during their schooling? Truly, why would ANY hetero male, no matter how devoted to the Lord, want to go into the Holy Order and expose himself to that kind of danger if it is really that rampant? Seems to me there would be very few true heteros who become priests. 

If what you say about all this is true, I'm simply appalled. What simple logic am I missing that prevents me from understanding this line of reasoning.  Sounds like intentional obfuscation to me. 

"With other gay men" is silly.  The order of the priesthood in the Catholic Church holds the same expectations for all men, gay or otherwise.  The LDS Church asks a gay person to be celibate without covenant and no incentive or process to stay away from "other gay men".   The Holy Priesthood in the Catholic Church is a very serious covenant. 

 

15 hours ago, carlimac said:

 And for those who aren't gay before entering seminaries, wouldn't the incidence be higher of those who take on homosexual thoughts and behaviors after being violated by other men during their schooling?

You think so low of gay men.  Especially gay men with a dedication to be priests - voluntarily.  If a gay man wants to violate people, going into Holy Orders is the difficult route.

 

15 hours ago, carlimac said:

 Truly, why would ANY hetero male, no matter how devoted to the Lord, want to go into the Holy Order and expose himself to that kind of danger if it is really that rampant? Seems to me there would be very few true heteros who become priests. 

First... "that rampant" is questionable.  I reject that claim.

Second... why would ANY male, hetero or otherwise,  decide to be celibate, leave his family, not marry, and not have children of his own?  And that's not even mentioning the rigors of the 10-year study to become a priest and the poverty of the life of a priest after?  Gay men in seminary ranks low on the concerns of hetero males going into seminary.

 

15 hours ago, carlimac said:

If what you say about all this is true, I'm simply appalled. What simple logic am I missing that prevents me from understanding this line of reasoning.  Sounds like intentional obfuscation to me. 

Critical thinking over emotional outbursts is my guess.  But that's just my guess.

 

 

Edited August 17, 2018 by anatess2

[Guest MormonGator]

14 hours ago, carlimac said:

Are you referring to all the young men in the Catholic schools who are molested by older men, and then become "homosexual" as a result? I just wonder what your question has to do with the PA Grand Jury findings. 

I went to Catholic school from grade 6-12th grade. It was all lay people, no priests. Most (key word, most)  Catholic schools in the states transferred from Priest/Brothers/Nuns to lay people in the 1980's. 

Edited August 17, 2018 by MormonGator

[carlimac]

On 8/17/2018 at 11:08 AM, anatess2 said:

Mortal justice does not "take a back seat".  And there's no "so called" about the process for delicta graviora.  You have a US Constitution, the Philippines have the Philippine Constitution, other countries have theirs.  Canon Law is the law of the Vatican.  Each of these laws are different from each other in their methods to address crimes committed.  But they're still addressing crimes committed.

I have been LDS and have not paid attention to Canon Law changes for almost 20 years.   Pope John Paul II's changes to this process was the last I've paid attention to.  So this info is a bit old, but I doubt it has changed since.  The canonical process for the redemption of a person who took the vow of Holy Orders and is accused with committing sexual abuse or personally confesses to such goes through these general steps:

1.)  A preliminary investigation is made, usually by the Bishop, to determine the validity of the accusation.  If the accusation/confession is credible, the priest is released of his public duties as soon as possible and assigned tasks where the priest is in safety from committing the sin.  The Bishop then calls... I can't remember what the office is called in the Vatican that handles this stuff.

2.) Another priest whose job is to investigate the crimes/sins is sent to assess the situation.  A more thorough investigation is made to determine the gravity of the sin to assess the proper penalty.  Depending on the gravity of the sin committed, the priest may be given varying penalties.  For example, sins such as breaking the vow of celibacy with a consensual adult partner usually results in the priest removed from public ministry but may continue to minister in private such as celebrate masses in monasteries or other non-public religious houses while they work through the sacrament of reconciliation and may be released for public ministry in a different region not easily accessible to his old one in short order. Grave sins such as pedophilia would cause the priest to be immediately sequestered (the secular world calls this "hiding the priest").  Usually they are sent to a monastery to live the life of a monk where they have very limited access to other priests and their daily tasks are limited to prayer and confession and penance.  They have no access to the public.  It may be determined through the investigation or the ongoing process of reconciliation that the priest is spiritually too weak to be released from sequestration for the rest of his life.  You may call this sentenced to life imprisonment if you like.

3.)  While in reconciliation, the priest goes through the entire process of spiritual change guided by a mentor.  All throughout this time, the victim/victims are also being mentored, as much as they are willing to be, to go through spiritual upliftment by their priests.  If and when the penitent priest and his victims are willing and ready, the priest may be given the opportunity to redress the grievance.

4.) Upon successful repentance as assessed by his mentor, the priest may be released slowly to ministry, and may be given a full restoration of his covenants to minister to the public to complete his reconciliation.  This is not much different from a criminal completing his sentence and released from prison.

The entire process is dedicated to the salvation of souls and the protection of the entire body of the Children of God.  Now, with the large clamoring of the secular public to inflict their own methods of justice, the Catholic Church has to balance Canon Law with secular law in their fulfillment of that goal.

 

"With other gay men" is silly.  The order of the priesthood in the Catholic Church holds the same expectations for all men, gay or otherwise.  The LDS Church asks a gay person to be celibate without covenant and no incentive or process to stay away from "other gay men".   The Holy Priesthood in the Catholic Church is a very serious covenant. 

 

You think so low of gay men.  Especially gay men with a dedication to be priests - voluntarily.  If a gay man wants to violate people, going into Holy Orders is the difficult route.

 

First... "that rampant" is questionable.  I reject that claim.

Second... why would ANY male, hetero or otherwise,  decide to be celibate, leave his family, not marry, and not have children of his own?  And that's not even mentioning the rigors of the 10-year study to become a priest and the poverty of the life of a priest after?  Gay men in seminary ranks low on the concerns of hetero males going into seminary.

 

Critical thinking over emotional outbursts is my guess.  But that's just my guess.

 

 

Well I guess this is your version or opinion. I respect that since you have been Catholic and I haven't. But what I am reading out in cyberworld doesn't match what you're saying exactly. I've read quite a few times that there is a homosexual culture within the priesthood.  This is what I have read anyway. It's not idea or my "emotional outburst" as you say. 

This : https://www.catholicnewsagency.com/news/bishop-morlino-homosexual-subculture-source-of-devastation-in-the-church-54040

"“In the specific situations at hand, we are talking about deviant sexual — almost exclusively homosexual — acts by clerics. We’re also talking about homosexual propositions and abuses against seminarians and young priests by powerful priests, bishops, and cardinals."

Edited August 20, 2018 by carlimac

[anatess2]

15 hours ago, carlimac said:

Well I guess this is your version or opinion. I respect that since you have been Catholic and I haven't. But what I am reading out in cyberworld doesn't match what you're saying exactly. I've read quite a few times that there is a homosexual culture within the priesthood.  This is what I have read anyway. It's not idea or my "emotional outburst" as you say. 

This : https://www.catholicnewsagency.com/news/bishop-morlino-homosexual-subculture-source-of-devastation-in-the-church-54040

"“In the specific situations at hand, we are talking about deviant sexual — almost exclusively homosexual — acts by clerics. We’re also talking about homosexual propositions and abuses against seminarians and young priests by powerful priests, bishops, and cardinals."

My dear carlimac, Canon Law is not an opinion just like the Word of Wisdom or the US Constitution is not an opinion.  It's a LAW.

Yes, there are homosexuals in the Catholic Priesthood just like there are homosexuals everywhere else.  Yes, there are homosexuals in the high echelons of the Catholic clergy just like there are homosexuals in high echelons of any other organization.  And yes, there are people who struggle with homosexual attractions but are good people and there are also people who struggle with homosexual attractions and are bad people just like everywhere else.  You have the US Constitution to deal with crimes in the USA, you have Canon Law to deal with crimes in the Catholic Church.  The Catholic Church used to be the Government in most of Europe, you know. This is not an opinion nor "my version" of fact.

But of course you can go read whatever you want in the cyberworld.  There are as many, if not more anti-Catholics as there are anti-Mormons and just as many ignorant Catholics as there are ignorant Mormons.  Who cares what anybody believes anymore.  Mormons can scream all day long that they are X - doesn't matter if the cyberworld doesn't agree with them, because people would rather believe the cyberworld.  Same for Catholics.  It is what it is.  I gave you the Catholic Canon Law and the reasoning behind the Law.  Do with it as you please.

Edited August 20, 2018 by anatess2

[Traveler]

On 8/16/2018 at 6:47 PM, carlimac said:

Are you referring to all the young men in the Catholic schools who are molested by older men, and then become "homosexual" as a result? I just wonder what your question has to do with the PA Grand Jury findings. 

Generally it would seem to me that our society views sexual behaviors as a genetic or something similar conditions that a person is born with.  We know that adjusting to trauma often results in behaviors destructive to both individuals and society.   Then we redefine behaviors as non--destructive when it suits another political cause.  My point is that as bad and destructive that the behaviors of the priest were we are not considering the whole picture.  For example is engaging children in sexual possibilities is known to be destructive - then children should not be subjected to pornography even if (as was done by the state of Washington) there is not a 1st Amendment right of freedom of speech that allows adolescent children (not legal age of adult) access to any pornography and allowing children any possibility of observing an R - rated movie - by any adult should be a criminal act - as were the uncaring for youth actions of the priests.

 

The Traveler

[Traveler]

4 hours ago, anatess2 said:

My dear carlimac, Canon Law is not an opinion just like the Word of Wisdom or the US Constitution is not an opinion.  It's a LAW.

Yes, there are homosexuals in the Catholic Priesthood just like there are homosexuals everywhere else.  Yes, there are homosexuals in the high echelons of the Catholic clergy just like there are homosexuals in high echelons of any other organization.  And yes, there are people who struggle with homosexual attractions but are good people and there are also people who struggle with homosexual attractions and are bad people just like everywhere else.  You have the US Constitution to deal with crimes in the USA, you have Canon Law to deal with crimes in the Catholic Church.  The Catholic Church used to be the Government in most of Europe, you know. This is not an opinion nor "my version" of fact.

But of course you can go read whatever you want in the cyberworld.  There are as many, if not more anti-Catholics as there are anti-Mormons and just as many ignorant Catholics as there are ignorant Mormons.  Who cares what anybody believes anymore.  Mormons can scream all day long that they are X - doesn't matter if the cyberworld doesn't agree with them, because people would rather believe the cyberworld.  Same for Catholics.  It is what it is.  I gave you the Catholic Canon Law and the reasoning behind the Law.  Do with it as you please.

I am not sure but @carlimacmay be making a reference to celibacy and the growing difficulty with both male and female roles of service and the Catholic belief that serving G-d requires abstinence from what is determined as the original sin of not just any sexual behavior but as also the procreation of human life in marriage and that serving G-d in one way excludes the other.

 

The Traveler

[anatess2]

1 minute ago, Traveler said:

I am not sure but @carlimacmay be making a reference to celibacy and the growing difficulty with both male and female roles of service and the Catholic belief that serving G-d requires abstinence from what is determined as the original sin of not just any sexual behavior but as also the procreation of human life in marriage and that serving G-d in one way excludes the other.

 

The Traveler

No.  That's not her issue at all.  Look back through the posts.

[Chilean]

Unfortunately I'm not surprise.

I'm originally from a Catholic country (Chile!) and unfortunately it's not news to us. For many many maaaany years catholic priest have been abusing little kids. and yes, for many yeears they have been covering it up. In this last few years many adults who were abused sued the catholic church, and of course Pope Francisco brushed It off.

Even nuns have been abused, and the priests cover their abuse. There have been a lot of focus on their abouse this last 2-4 years. And every day more cases come to light, even here in the US.

 

[Vort]

On 8/15/2018 at 7:10 PM, carlimac said:

Really?? Even as advanced as we have become as humans, sex is as automatic as breathing?  I think these priests are a little more intelligent than that. Perhaps that's why so many of them hide what they're doing. They know it's wrong.   "Never be surprised that some people are predators."???  Seriously? Do you mean "never be surprised that there are predators out there"? NO I'm not surprised. People have made evil choices since Cain killed Abel. But I will more often than not, assume the best of humankind while being alert to those who might have dangerous tendencies and protecting myself and my children. I'd rather see the goodness in people than go around assuming and imagining that every other person is a predator. 

What is the one and only solution? 

Carlimac, I think you need to take two or three deep breaths, put aside your preconceptions, and carefully re-read what I wrote. I believe my words were self-explanatory for the careful reader.

[anatess2]

54 minutes ago, Chilean said:

Unfortunately I'm not surprise.

I'm originally from a Catholic country (Chile!) and unfortunately it's not news to us. For many many maaaany years catholic priest have been abusing little kids. and yes, for many yeears they have been covering it up. In this last few years many adults who were abused sued the catholic church, and of course Pope Francisco brushed It off.

Even nuns have been abused, and the priests cover their abuse. There have been a lot of focus on their abouse this last 2-4 years. And every day more cases come to light, even here in the US.

 

If you don't want anti-Mormons spouting falsehoods about the LDS Church, you can start by not spouting falsehoods about other Churches such as the Catholic Church.  "Pope Francisco brushed it off" is a false statement.  The Pope is not a dictator.  The Pope has a duty to Canon Law.  Pope Francis may be controversial in his non-European statements but he has not done anything yet against Canon Law.  So, I don't know how much of your paragraph to believe.

[prisonchaplain]

On ‎8‎/‎15‎/‎2018 at 6:58 PM, carlimac said:

Some say that could be up to 50% of them.

Given that the best studies suggest 2-3% of the general population has same-sex attraction, I am guessing that this statistic is a shoot-from-the-hip, baseless guess.

[carlimac]

7 hours ago, anatess2 said:

sMy dear carlimac, Canon Law is not an opinion just like the Word of Wisdom or the US Constitution is not an opinion.  It's a LAW.

Yes, there are homosexuals in the Catholic Priesthood just like there are homosexuals everywhere else.  Yes, there are homosexuals in the high echelons of the Catholic clergy just like there are homosexuals in high echelons of any other organization.  And yes, there are people who struggle with homosexual attractions but are good people and there are also people who struggle with homosexual attractions and are bad people just like everywhere else.  You have the US Constitution to deal with crimes in the USA, you have Canon Law to deal with crimes in the Catholic Church.  The Catholic Church used to be the Government in most of Europe, you know. This is not an opinion nor "my version" of fact.

But of course you can go read whatever you want in the cyberworld.  There are as many, if not more anti-Catholics as there are anti-Mormons and just as many ignorant Catholics as there are ignorant Mormons.  Who cares what anybody believes anymore.  Mormons can scream all day long that they are X - doesn't matter if the cyberworld doesn't agree with them, because people would rather believe the cyberworld.  Same for Catholics.  It is what it is.  I gave you the Catholic Canon Law and the reasoning behind the Law.  Do with it as you please.

I'm really not sure why you are so condescending toward me in all your post unless it's because I'm taking a critical view of your roots. None of my posts are pointed at you personally except where you seem to deny what I have read out there. I don't think it's all a bunch of fairy tales. I've read many stories over the last 5 days or so of people growing up in other parts of the country whose beloved priest had been removed for the same offense.

I wasn't arguing about Canon Law. It is what it is. I am arguing that a larger than average number of priests have been said to be gay. I've read these words in several places in the news and on forums by the average Catholic. Even Bishop Morlino (who ever he is) has said this in the article he wrote. You say I have an "issue". What do YOU perceive my issue to be? And why is what I think so offensive to you? 

 

 In a backward sort of way, I can see how the priesthood would be attractive to those with same gender attraction but who want to remain celibate and devout. But how strong the temptation would be when they are in the presence of others with the same attraction. They may not go into the priesthood thinking they are going to lose control, play the system, or abuse other young men or women. But if the subculture is such and temptation takes over and it's not too terribly hard to hide the sins, then they may just possibly break their vows of celibacy. Before they know it they are deeply entrenched in it.

I think it would behoove the Pope to ask God what he recommends to fix this situation.

I am not anti-Catholic. I am pro-protect children, especially in vulnerable situations. I am pro- intimate relationships after marriage. I am pro marriage. And it seems that maybe allowing priests to marry would help at least some. If they are same sex attracted, well then they have the same challenge that people in our church have with that attraction.  

 

[carlimac]

1 hour ago, anatess2 said:

If you don't want anti-Mormons spouting falsehoods about the LDS Church, you can start by not spouting falsehoods about other Churches such as the Catholic Church.  "Pope Francisco brushed it off" is a false statement.  The Pope is not a dictator.  The Pope has a duty to Canon Law.  Pope Francis may be controversial in his non-European statements but he has not done anything yet against Canon Law.  So, I don't know how much of your paragraph to believe.

_Associated Press: AP Exclusive: 2015 Letter Belies Pope's Claim Of Ignorance — "Pope Francis received a victim’s letter in 2015 that graphically detailed how a priest sexually abused him and how other Chilean clergy ignored it, contradicting the pope’s recent insistence that no victims had come forward to denounce the cover-up, the letter’s author and members of Francis’ own sex- abuse commission have told The Associated Press."

_https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/may/02/pope-francis-chile-sexual-abuse-scandal-part-of-problem

Cruz said that during his private encounter with Francis, the pope acknowledged: “I was part of the problem. I caused this, and I apologize to you.”

“I believe that he was sincere,” Cruz said.

I don't think Chilean was spouting falsehoods. Maybe he was referring only to the beginning of the story where the Pope indeed did ignore or at the least didn't publically address  the problem.

I believe the Pope is a good and wonderful man. I'm not trying to put him down.

 

[carlimac]

58 minutes ago, prisonchaplain said:

Given that the best studies suggest 2-3% of the general population has same-sex attraction, I am guessing that this statistic is a shoot-from-the-hip, baseless guess.

Not according to those within the church who are aware of what's going on. It's easily found in a google search.  http://www.slate.com/blogs/outward/2017/04/20/how_the_catholic_priesthood_became_a_haven_for_many_gay_men.html

Edited August 20, 2018 by carlimac

[prisonchaplain]

The rate of Catholic priests abusing their positions for sexual gratification is likely similar to that of other institutions (religious and educational) where adults wield authority over children. Did the church handle allegations well in decades past? Probably not. Did other institutions engage in similar cover ups. Probably. To give perspective, I remember, as a 16-year old, teaching Sunday school boys about age 10, by myself. The bus captain would knock on doors when picking children up to go to church, and would sometimes enter the house, because no one answered. He would then get the children and bring them out to the bus. Today these things would never happen, but it was the 1970s. Come to think of it, my friends and I would walk/run to school (half a mile away), playing tag, as 6-year olds. Today our parents might be charged with neglect.

So, yeah. I think there is a lot of out-sized moral outrage at the Catholic church, because some truly abhorrent recent negligence is being conflated with decades-old practices that were the norm in their time. I would suggest additional caution, in that part of the antagonism towards the Catholic Church is really due to its traditional opposition to same-sex marriage and abortions. There's a not-too-subtle undercurrent of accusation that same-sex relationships are normal and the church has these problems because it is in denial. Do not think for a moment this same opposition will not be directed at your church (and mine) when the next incident goes public.

 

[prisonchaplain]

8 minutes ago, carlimac said:

Not according to those within the church who are aware of what's going on. It's easily found in a google search.

And it could be true. However all the Google stuff I found (ranges of 40s to 80%) were based largely on guesses, or on very small, non-scientific surveys. People having been suggesting that a lot of Catholic priests are gay, and that child abuse is due to celibacy rules, for a long time. There's no reputable data or research to back up any of this guessing, though.

[Guest MormonGator]

I'm one of those people who believes that the 1% of priests ruin it for the 99%.

But you know what? A growing percentage of people disagree with me. They see it as a widespread, major problem in the Catholic church.  That is the problem. The cover ups, what seems like non stop scandals-it is a major, major problem for the Catholic church. Many people, and not all of them are "anti-Catholics" are getting fed up with this. Look at the empty churches in New England for evidence. 

Edited August 21, 2018 by MormonGator

[carlimac]

1 hour ago, prisonchaplain said:

 

And it could be true. However all the Google stuff I found (ranges of 40s to 80%) were based largely on guesses, or on very small, non-scientific surveys. People having been suggesting that a lot of Catholic priests are gay, and that child abuse is due to celibacy rules, for a long time. There's no reputable data or research to back up any of this guessing, though.

https://www.christianpost.com/news/catholic-church-sexual-abuse-clergy-unresolved-25-new-cases-annual-report-188086/

Sexual abuse by clergy continues to be a problem within the Roman Catholic Church, according to a recent annual report.

The Church's National Review Board for the Protection of Children and Young People found in May that between July 1, 2015, and June 30, 2016, there were 1,232 abused individuals who brought forth 1,318 allegations of sexual abuse by clergy.

Edited August 21, 2018 by carlimac

[carlimac]

1 hour ago, prisonchaplain said:

The rate of Catholic priests abusing their positions for sexual gratification is likely similar to that of other institutions (religious and educational) where adults wield authority over children. Did the church handle allegations well in decades past? Probably not. Did other institutions engage in similar cover ups. Probably. To give perspective, I remember, as a 16-year old, teaching Sunday school boys about age 10, by myself. The bus captain would knock on doors when picking children up to go to church, and would sometimes enter the house, because no one answered. He would then get the children and bring them out to the bus. Today these things would never happen, but it was the 1970s. Come to think of it, my friends and I would walk/run to school (half a mile away), playing tag, as 6-year olds. Today our parents might be charged with neglect.

So, yeah. I think there is a lot of out-sized moral outrage at the Catholic church, because some truly abhorrent recent negligence is being conflated with decades-old practices that were the norm in their time. I would suggest additional caution, in that part of the antagonism towards the Catholic Church is really due to its traditional opposition to same-sex marriage and abortions. There's a not-too-subtle undercurrent of accusation that same-sex relationships are normal and the church has these problems because it is in denial. Do not think for a moment this same opposition will not be directed at your church (and mine) when the next incident goes public.

 

It has and it will again. I'm not saying this hasn't happened in my own church. Boyscouts!?!  But I really don't think other institutions (religious and educational) have had quite this much trouble with it. Not this widescale anyway.  The Pope admits it has been a problem. If he can admit it I don't think we on this forum need to deny it (as it seems many are). 

I'm not posting about this as condemnation and revulsion toward the Catholic Church. As I said, I have respect for the Catholic Church and it's members in general. For the amazing charities that have come out of it.   Our church isn't perfect by any means and we have quite the colorful history ourselves in some instances. But I'm mostly asking "why  did/is this happening in this particular church" and "I wonder if anything is going to change on a large scale to prevent it?" I was deeply touched by the description of  the victims' pain.

[prisonchaplain]

2 hours ago, carlimac said:

https://www.christianpost.com/news/catholic-church-sexual-abuse-clergy-unresolved-25-new-cases-annual-report-188086/

Sexual abuse by clergy continues to be a problem within the Roman Catholic Church, according to a recent annual report.

The Church's National Review Board for the Protection of Children and Young People found in May that between July 1, 2015, and June 30, 2016, there were 1,232 abused individuals who brought forth 1,318 allegations of sexual abuse by clergy.

Every one of them is a horrific tragedy. For perspective, though, in a church of 1 billion plus members, that would be like having 15 cases in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. I'm not suggesting there are that many, but in a church that represents about three times as many people as live in the U.S., that 1,000+ might not be as historically high as it seems.

[prisonchaplain]

4 hours ago, MormonGator said:

I'm one of those people who believes that the 1% of priests ruin it for the 99%.

But you know what? A growing percentage of people disagree with me. They see it as a widespread, major problem in the Catholic church.  That is the problem. The cover ups, what seems like non stop scandals-it is a major, major problem for the Catholic church. Many people, and not all of them are "anti-Catholics" are getting fed up with this. Look at the empty churches in New England for evidence. 

I'm flashing back to the 1980s, a time when a few big name televangelists cast a large shadow over all of Pentecostalism. One Evangelical opined, "Well, it only makes sense. After all, Pentecostals rely so heavily on emotion (aka the prompting of the Holy Spirit), so of course they'll end up with high rates of sexual sin." The RATE was not high, but the spotlight shown brightly.

So...no, I do not agree that the impressions of "many people" and the defections of a few, mean that this is actual spike in abuse rates or cover ups, nor that Catholics are truly experiencing rates of abuse higher than other institutions. That data has yet to be presented. All I know for sure is that the spotlight shineth brightly.

[Guest MormonGator]

7 hours ago, prisonchaplain said:

I'm flashing back to the 1980s, a time when a few big name televangelists cast a large shadow over all of Pentecostalism. One Evangelical opined, "Well, it only makes sense. After all, Pentecostals rely so heavily on emotion (aka the prompting of the Holy Spirit), so of course they'll end up with high rates of sexual sin." The RATE was not high, but the spotlight shown brightly.

So...no, I do not agree that the impressions of "many people" and the defections of a few, mean that this is actual spike in abuse rates or cover ups, nor that Catholics are truly experiencing rates of abuse higher than other institutions. That data has yet to be presented. All I know for sure is that the spotlight shineth brightly.

This is totally different than the televangelist scandals of the 80's. It's also a different world.