This is distressing...

[prisonchaplain]

2 hours ago, carlimac said:

FOIA requests are not unusual. I hear about it. Someone very close to me works there. 

In general, sure. About Kavanaugh, of course. About his wife? Seriously? They are fishing, quite wildly, hoping to, at minimum, intimidate the SCOTUS nominee by digging for dirt on his wife. If Democrats were doing this I'd just be disgusted. The media, though. No, this is not normal operating procedures.

[prisonchaplain]

2 hours ago, carlimac said:

So do you think the media shouldn't be reporting on this right now when it's happening? Maybe wait 6 months or so? 

It would be wonderful if the media would actually report, but then there would likely not be nearly as much of a story. It's the politically timed muckraking-guised-as-reporting that is suspect.

[prisonchaplain]

2 hours ago, MormonGator said:

The population is more jaded and less religious than it was almost 40 years ago in the 1980's. The problems that effected the Evangelical community could be more easily absorbed by those communities strictly because of numbers. Next, the media was totally different back then. Was it hostile to faith? Sure, still is. Now though, with social media and the internet, the news is far more accessible and you can't avoid it, even if you wanted too. The situations are vastly different. 

You are going to have to help me understand. Of course, every day is different. However, the parallels between the scandals of the 80s and the scandals of today seem clear to me. Press was hostile then and is hostile now. The immediate scandals cast unfair shade then and seem to be doing so now. So, how is my comparison flawed?

[Guest MormonGator]

9 minutes ago, prisonchaplain said:

You are going to have to help me understand. Of course, every day is different. However, the parallels between the scandals of the 80s and the scandals of today seem clear to me. Press was hostile then and is hostile now. The immediate scandals cast unfair shade then and seem to be doing so now. So, how is my comparison flawed?

In the 80's people were more religious. Churches had better attendance, they could withstand more scrutiny just based on numbers. No social media/internet. Media has gotten MORE critical of religion since the 80's as well. Totally different world. 

Edited August 21, 2018 by MormonGator

[Guest]

On 8/15/2018 at 4:50 PM, carlimac said:

I'm uncomfortable with the fact that this is ho hum news.Or non-news for some. Have we become that numb? 

Sadly, I fear this is so.  How often do we hear about horrors of all types going on in the world?  How can we change any of it?  We feel so powerless to change anything that the only way to stay sane is to just grow numb to it.

It seems (quoting Ever After) that if we care about anything, we have to care about everything and we'll go stark raving mad.  Or maybe we can simply find one cause to cling to and try to leave everything else to others.

Evil is all around us.  And it is no longer a surprise when we hear about yet another form of evil that we all kinda knew was there.  But now it's officially known.

I wish it were different.  You wish it were different.  Anyone with any decency should wish it were different.  But it is the reality we live in.

[estradling75]

5 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

Sadly, I fear this is so.  How often do we hear about horrors of all types going on in the world?  How can we change any of it?  We feel so powerless to change anything that the only way to stay sane is to just grow numb to it.

It seems (quoting Ever After) that if we care about anything, we have to care about everything and we'll go stark raving mad.  Or maybe we can simply find one cause to cling to and try to leave everything else to others.

Evil is all around us.  And it is no longer a surprise when we hear about yet another form of evil that we all kinda knew was there.  But now it's officially known.

I wish it were different.  You wish it were different.  Anyone with any decency should wish it were different.  But it is the reality we live in.

Understandable...  But at the same time why do people assume because we are not all frothing at the mouth about it that we are numb or think it is non news?

The link given is a Grand Jury report... Which means mortal justice is happening.  What more can we really ask for?  Divine Justice? Sure absolutely but its in his time and in his way. Vigilante Justice?  Ummm... No thank you.  OK how about we ask for changes?  We are getting that too.  The Catholic Church is changing how it responds (and so are many other groups) So yeah... But all the changes in the world can't change the past. 

You do not have to be numb or not caring to realize we (as a society) are dealing with these issues.  

 

[carlimac]

14 minutes ago, estradling75 said:

Understandable...  But at the same time why do people assume because we are not all frothing at the mouth about it that we are numb or think it is non news?

The link given is a Grand Jury report... Which means mortal justice is happening.  What more can we really ask for?  Divine Justice? Sure absolutely but its in his time and in his way. Vigilante Justice?  Ummm... No thank you.  OK how about we ask for changes?  We are getting that too.  The Catholic Church is changing how it responds (and so are many other groups) So yeah... But all the changes in the world can't change the past. 

You do not have to be numb or not caring to realize we (as a society) are dealing with these issues.  

 

Are they really being dealt with? 

http://www.kswo.com/story/38923503/local-advocates-want-action-on-kansas-city-priests-accused-of-abuse

[estradling75]

11 minutes ago, carlimac said:

Are they really being dealt with? 

http://www.kswo.com/story/38923503/local-advocates-want-action-on-kansas-city-priests-accused-of-abuse

As I stated per the link in the first post it was a Grand Jury Report..  So yes it very much is being dealt with within the jurisdiction of that Grand Jury.  Outside that jurisdiction well you would have to look and see if the legal process has happened in the individual jurisdictions in question...  After all this is not the first time the Catholic church has been before the courts on this issue.  And yes some times the mortal justice system decides not to prosecute.  That is also mortal justice (as unfair as it may seem sometimes)

If you find a locality that is ignoring it, then that is the perfect time to express some out rage toward that group and push for justice.  But those are growing less and less every day so again yes it is being dealt with.

 

 

[prisonchaplain]

1 hour ago, MormonGator said:

In the 80's people were more religious. Churches had better attendance, they could withstand more scrutiny just based on numbers. No social media/internet. Media has gotten MORE critical of religion since the 80's as well. Totally different world. 

BUT how does any of that counter the parallels I mentioned? If people are now less religious, then a hostile media is even more effective. If social media and the internet (with their now proven left-leaning right-censoring platforms) are ascendant then the impact of muckraking news is even stronger. And so, you say, media is more critical. These differences you highlight only bolster my points--that the media is unfairly reporting scandal to inflame against conservative religion--in this case Catholicism. @anatess2 adds that the timing for this one is to harm the SCOTUS nominee.

Edited August 21, 2018 by prisonchaplain

[Guest MormonGator]

How are the media reports unfair?  The MSM is generally disdainful towards religion, but let us never forget that it's not "fake news". Horrible things actually happened and yes, I know you are not defending what happened. 

Edited August 21, 2018 by MormonGator

[carlimac]

45 minutes ago, prisonchaplain said:

BUT how does any of that counter the parallels I mentioned? If people are now less religious, then a hostile media is even more effective. If social media and the internet (with their now proven left-leaning right-censoring platforms) are ascendant then the impact of muckraking news is even stronger. And so, you say, media is more critical. These differences you highlight only bolster my points--that the media is unfairly reporting scandal to inflame against conservative religion--in this case Catholicism. @anatess2 adds that the timing for this one is to harm the SCOTUS nominee.

So explain to me how the media blowing this up as you say they are would have any affect on whether Kavanaugh gets in. Point by point. I sort of get the connection but this isn't a general election. The number of people voting this guy in is limited and I don't see how this would change any opinions they already have about a Catholic guy being a supreme court judge. Unless he were to say all this stuff never happened and try to deny it. then his credibility is down the toilet.

 

Edited August 21, 2018 by carlimac

[prisonchaplain]

@carlimac, First, I agree with you and @MormonGator that there are some truly tragic molestations being reported. Further, there was some covering up.  Our hearts go out to the children and their parents. 

The major piece missing from these stories is whether or not the rate of abuse is higher in Catholicism than in other religious communities, and even within educational systems. If, for example, it is typical for there to be one case of abuse per 10,000 teacher/priest/clergypersons and the Catholic Church has experienced 5 cases per 10,000, that would be huge, and the coverage we've seen would be justified. Even if it was 1.2, the headline would read, "20% higher . . . " Either there simply are no adequate measures, or the results do not fit the narrative.

So, why might created distrust against the Catholic Church hurt Kavanaugh's nomination? It's unfair, but if we cannot trust his church are we sure we can trust him? What might he cover up? Who might he protect? How might he use his power to help protect his own, at the expense of the vulnerable?

When Sarah Palin was VP candidate there was a two-week stretch where the big news was that a church she had attended had a special guest who claimed to cast out demons, and that this controversial African preacher had laid hands on Palin and prayed for her.  So? Well, if he's weird then maybe she is too?

Honestly, I would not carry the conspiracy of this too far, but on a base level the media hates Trump and is pro-choice. Progressives are dead set against Kavanaugh. So, if a story might indirectly make him look bad, I would not put it past editors to choose it over something that otherwise might be far more important.

Edited August 21, 2018 by prisonchaplain

[Guest MormonGator]

4 minutes ago, prisonchaplain said:

@carlimac, First, I agree with you and @MormonGator that there are some truly tragic molestations being reported. Further, there was some covering up.  Our hearts go out to the children and their parents. 

The major piece missing from these stories is whether or not the rate of abuse is higher in Catholicism than in other religious communities, and even within educational systems. If, for example, it is typical for there to be one case of abuse per 10,000 teacher/priest/clergypersons and the Catholic Church has experienced 5 cases per 10,000, that would be huge, and the coverage we've seen would be justified. Even if it was 1.2, the headline would read, "20% higher . . . " Either there simply are no adequate measures, or the results do not fit the narrative.

I know what you are saying, and you raise some good points. 

[anatess2]

18 hours ago, carlimac said:

So explain to me how the media blowing this up as you say they are would have any affect on whether Kavanaugh gets in. Point by point. I sort of get the connection but this isn't a general election. The number of people voting this guy in is limited and I don't see how this would change any opinions they already have about a Catholic guy being a supreme court judge. Unless he were to say all this stuff never happened and try to deny it. then his credibility is down the toilet.

 

The Senate confirms a SCOTUS nominee.  The Democrats want to vote Nay because, as you have noticed, Democrats want activist judges like Ginsburg.  Kavanaugh is so far from a Ginsburg you'll need jet fuel to get there but he has impeccable credentials.  They cannot just vote Nay without reason otherwise the people they represent will punish them for it in the next election.  As have been the case in previous nominees - perfect example is Clarence Thomas - attaching a scandal to the nominee gives the Senate cover to vote Nay with impunity from their voting bloc, not only from the next election but throughout all other elections in their careers.  At best, they will have a significant number of people calling in to their offices to drive a Nay vote that they can then claim made them vote the way they did on the campaign trail when the other candidate attacks them for it in the near future or in any other elections following.

I'm going to make a prediction... the Catholic trials will be brought up over and over in the Kavanaugh  Senate confirmation hearings and it will be grand standing time.

 

Edited August 22, 2018 by anatess2

[estradling75]

Sigh... When an abortion provider is killed... the media is all over the anti-abortionist as being the cause..

When an homosexual is attacked or suicides.. the Anti Gay people are blamed...

When an immigrant is assaulted.. those against illegal immigration is blamed..

But when a Catholic priest who by all account is innocent of hurting anyone gets attacked. (See this http://www.foxnews.com/us/2018/08/22/indiana-priest-assaulted-at-church-in-possible-hate-crime-police-say.html)

Those same blamers remain quite.

All of the above show very clearly the dangers of "outrage" as a tool for change,  The more outraged someone becomes the more likely they are going to do something stupid and harmful.  

This is a known issue yet it keeps being used.

 

Edited August 22, 2018 by estradling75

[carlimac]

The more I think about this the less I feel like it's a conspiracy against Kavanaugh. Members of Congress are going to look more at his voting record than anything else. After all there are more Catholics on the Supreme Court already than any other religious affiliation and they include both conservative and liberal judges. 

The timing is interesting but the idea that they pulled out this report last week specifically  to weaken Kavanaugh's status has no basis in fact or truth. 

This is a quote from Scalia from long ago obviously:

"There is no such thing as a 'Catholic judge.' The bottom line is that the Catholic faith seems to me to have little effect on my work as a judge...Just as there is no 'Catholic' way to cook a hamburger, I am hard pressed to tell you of a single opinion of mine that would have come out differently if I were not Catholic."

Edited August 22, 2018 by carlimac

[anatess2]

42 minutes ago, carlimac said:

The timing is interesting but the idea that they pulled out this report last week specifically  to weaken Kavanaugh's status has no basis in fact or truth. 

It is MY OPINION as I stated.

Here's my basis:

Facts:

Clarence Thomas was raked over the coals during his confirmation hearings not because of his voting record but because of some scandal about adultery.

If you want more recent, then there's nothing more recent than Gorsuch's confirmation hearing with senators going ape, not over his voting record but over plagiarism.

Senate Democrats refused to meet with Kavanaugh prior to the hearings to "feel him out", as is the norm, except for Manchin.  This, to me, indicates Democrats are going to use a playbook.

The New York Times and the Associated Press submitted FOIA requests to the State of Maryland for all of Ashley Kavanaugh's (Brett's wife) emails while working as the town manager for Chevy Chase that contains the words "abortion" and "gay".

Kavanaugh is not just your ordinary Catholic.  Surely not a Joe Biden Catholic.  Kavanaugh is a devout Catholic who lectored for years and ran Catholic charities.  He has a close relationship with Catholic clergy.

When Kavanaugh was nominated, the press "4AM drop"* was "Trump nominates Kavanaugh, a Catholic, to the Supreme Court".

If the Senate Democrats can get on a single playbook, then all they have to do is convince Lisa Murkowski and Susan Collins through their voter base.  And John McCain as a bonus just because McCain hates Trump and has proven to go against his own interests to thwart him.

 

 

*4AM drop is this theory that the propaganda machine gives news outlets a template for the day's narrative at 4am which is why a lot of news stories have the same sentences/words in them.  For example, the 4am drop is "Trump's mental health is questionable" and then you'll have multiple print and TV news saying Trump, mental health, questionable in them in various sentence structures by noon.

Edited August 22, 2018 by anatess2

[prisonchaplain]

49 minutes ago, carlimac said:

The more I think about this the less I feel like it's a conspiracy against Kavanaugh. Members of Congress are going to look more at his voting record than anything else. After all there are more Catholics on the Supreme Court already than any other religious affiliation and they include both conservative and liberal judges. 

The timing is interesting but the idea that they pulled out this report last week specifically  to weaken Kavanaugh's status has no basis in fact or truth. 

 

You've inflated the argument a bit here. The scandals happened. The cover-ups happened. The families deserve our condolences, sympathies and support. The religious authorities have answering to do. The timing of the incidents and their exposure is not something the media crafted (nor Democrat opposition). HOWEVER, the media choice to front-page the scandals, to offer no context, to editorialize and speculate at great length--these choices may well correlate with pro-choice/progressive/pro-Democrat/ANTI-TRUMP bias.

Edited August 22, 2018 by prisonchaplain

[carlimac]

3 hours ago, prisonchaplain said:

You've inflated the argument a bit here. The scandals happened. The cover-ups happened. The families deserve our condolences, sympathies and support. The religious authorities have answering to do. The timing of the incidents and their exposure is not something the media crafted (nor Democrat opposition). HOWEVER, the media choice to front-page the scandals, to offer no context, to editorialize and speculate at great length--these choices may well correlate with pro-choice/progressive/pro-Democrat/ANTI-TRUMP bias.

Not sure what you mean by "you've inflated the argument" .  It was never my idea that this had anything at all to do with Kavanaugh. I really think this was newsworthy enough to land on the front page for many days. It was a huge undertaking and resulted in very high numbers of people affected.  I think to say this story was generated and kept relevant solely by pro-choice/progressive/pro-Democrat/ANTI-TRUMPs and to accuse them simply of no context, editorializing and speculating (I still don't even understand what you mean by that)  is to do a serious disservice to all the victims. I have been speculating a ton myself. Who wouldn't? Really! And I am as far as one could get from being party to all the unsavory characters pointed out above.  I feel as much sadness and compassion for all the victims as if they all died in a building collapse- which would make headline news for days and weeks.

And that's MY opinion. 

Edited August 22, 2018 by carlimac

[prisonchaplain]

@carlimac, I sense that we are talking past each other, probably unintentionally. You want to emphasize that the child molestations in the Catholic Church are horrific, that the cover-ups are awful, and you wonder why any of us would defend or deflect that. I've tried to affirm much of your outrage, and agree that the church has much to answer for. THEN, I underlined media bias, and have suggested that the promotion of this story is likely due to more than just the immediate facts.

I do not suggest any conspiracies, nor that the timing was predetermined. I have not argued that the story is ONLY being reported to promote Democrats, hurt Trump, and scuttle the Kavanaugh nomination. On the other hand, I do believe that bias is fueling this story to greater quantities of coverage and greater prominence.

[Blackmarch]

On 8/15/2018 at 11:18 AM, carlimac said:

https://www.deseretnews.com/article/900028144/report-identifies-more-than-1-000-victims-of-priest-abuse.html

I have many Catholic friends who are very good people. I don't want to offend any of them but this is just sickening! 

 

It's also troubling in light of this honor the Church gave Cardinal Wuerl  https://www.mormonnewsroom.org/article/president-ballard-cardinal-wuerl-washington-religious-freedom

Sigh!

I'm very sorry for them. however considering how society is towards christianity i'm going to wait before making any judgements.

 

[carlimac]

7 hours ago, Blackmarch said:

I'm very sorry for them. however considering how society is towards christianity i'm going to wait before making any judgements.

 

From what I can tell from watching videos and reading blogs and forums, it's the Catholic members themselves that are the most angry and vocal about it all. These reports keep coming out every few years and they want REAL reform and REAL action taken. Not just words to placate the masses of people.

[carlimac]

Utah, too. 

https://www.deseretnews.com/article/900031994/16-catholic-priests-in-utah-accused-of-sex-abuse-since-1990-bishop-says.html