Tainted Love, or What Makes a Good Song, Anyway?

[Vort]

I have noticed that some stories are just so good, so solid, so right, that it is nearly impossible to kill them. Even bad representations of the story are good. A Christmas Carol springs to mind; I have seen many film versions of that short novel, and I have never seen one that was irredeemably bad. (Probably because they never made one with Jim Carrey or Mike Meyers.) I remember watching one starring, no kidding, Mister Magoo! And though it was no great work of art, it was not awful. It even had its moments. Pride and Prejudice seems to be cast from the same mold (though I admit that I have never seen a Mr. Magoo version of P&P).

This same phenomenon exists in music. Some songs are Just Plain Good. This is most easily seen when you have numerous covers of the song, and none of the covers seems to be bad. Tainted Love appears to be one of those. As Scott taught me this morning, the 1981 Soft Cell version that most of us are familiar with was not the original; that honor goes to Gloria Jones, whose version is really beautiful and now stands as my favorite. Listening to that version, you quickly realize that this is a "heartbroken woman" song cast in the '60s early rock mode. It just works great. The melody is written in a minor key, giving it a dark, brooding feel. And that 5-1-3-1 theme ("looove - weee - sha-are:) comes across as almost dissonent. It really reflects the mood of the song, brooding and very sad.

Yet like all pop songs in the '60s, the light rock rhythm seems to give it life and, on the surface at least, make it sound bouncy and fun. I'm reminded of the Jarmels' absolutely classic 1959 doo-wop Little Bit of Soap, What a truly beautiful song, and it really plumbs the depths of sadness -- yet if you don't actually listen to the words, you might just miss that little fact. (Little Bit of Soap might be another of those intrinsically great songs, being covered creditably by several people, most notably Elton John's drummer.) The boppy rhythm doesn't really mask the sadness of the song; it actually accentuates it.

There have been quite a few covers of Tainted Love, the most popular obviously being Soft Cell's version, which introduced an early '80s synth-pop sensibility. Most of these covers were sung by men, who changed "girl" to "boy", and this really gives a different take on the lyrics. (A very good different take, in my judgment.) As mentioned on the Scorpions thread, the Scorpions covered it, and served up a creditable metal version. Marilyn Manson's version of it is about as weird as Manson himself, but is not awful. Women's versions do exist, of course. Here's a slow, thoughful version apparently done for a popular TV show. Here's a sort of minimalist version, done for another TV show. And here's a ska version, which is kind of fun to hear. Still waiting for Weird Al's polka version.

[classylady]

I love the song Tainted Love by Soft Cell.  But, whenever I hear it I always think of the movie, The Coneheads, where Beldar gnarfles the Garthok. https://youtu.be/O4A46OQkklA

[jerome1232]

6 hours ago, Vort said:

I have noticed that some stories are just so good, so solid, so right, that it is nearly impossible to kill them. Even bad representations of the story are good. A Christmas Carol springs to mind; I have seen many film versions of that short novel, and I have never seen one that was irredeemably bad. (Probably because they never made one with Jim Carrey or Mike Meyers.) I remember watching one starring, no kidding, Mister Magoo! And though it was no great work of art, it was not awful. It even had its moments. Pride and Prejudice seems to be cast from the same mold (though I admit that I have never seen a Mr. Magoo version of P&P).

I hate to break it to you Vort, but Jim Carrey has indeed stared in A Christmas Carol.

https://www.imdb.com/title/tt1067106/

I'm rather partial to A Muppet Christmas Carol myself.

Btw, I love Marilyn Mansions cover of Tainted Love. His cover of Halloween is also fantastic. I can't say I know what makes songs that seem to speak to everyone tick. I'm pretty sure why certain people are attracted to certain types of music should be a scientific field if it isn't already. I've always wondered why it is I'm drawn in particular to sadder, depressing music, or to angry, powerful sounding music. Why I'm typically irritated by bouncy happy music, or at least can only take it in small doses.

 

[anatess2]

I love Duran-Duran because their songs are not about romantic relationships.  I love Rick Springfield because his songs are about romantic relationships.  A song I love and hate in equal measure is Hinder's Lips of an Angel.

[NeuroTypical]

9 hours ago, Vort said:

Even bad representations of the story are good. A Christmas Carol springs to mind; I have seen many film versions of that short novel, and I have never seen one that was irredeemably bad.

I discovered a version made into a fantasy/sci-fi musical a few years back.  Surprisingly deep insight into early traumatic scars that shape our adult lives.  

The innocent young Scrooge character wants to hang up holiday decorations, and gets raked over the coals by the headmaster for not taking things seriously enough, the headmaster demands the character choose between frivolous nonsense (and grow up a fool), and hard work and dedication (and actually make something of yourself).

[Narrator]
Then some distress, words so careless.  Standin' there, you don't know what to do.
Feelin' helpless, you can't make it hurt less. So you go and change your point of view.

And in that moment, though you didn't know it, Your defenses set up walls you built to last.
Leading to the [person] you've become today.  And the spell you're about to cast, It all comes from your past.

[Villain]
The seeds of the past. We grow up so fast.
Some hurts never go away.

[Narrator]
The seeds, as they grow, This we can't let go
All tied to this one holiday

 

Good redemption story 101:
1. Start with a villain, and in the process of discovering why he's a villain. (We find some common ground to which we can relate.)   
2. We see the villain go through a bunch of challenging painful growth, in which they are reminded who they used to be, and come to realize who they've become.  (Paths to which we can also relate). 
3. Such a realization prompts the redemption, and the villain dumps past toxic stuff and turns over a new leaf.   (And we walk away with renewed vigor to do the same).

 

Edited September 12, 2018 by NeuroTypical

[Guest Godless]

Wow, I feel really stupid now. All this time I thought Tainted Love was a Tears for Fears Song. Though to be fair, I wasn't around when it came out (TFF'S Everybody Wants to Rule the World was #1 when I was born). But yeah, great song. And I like Manson's version a lot.

I think Tool's 46 & 2 may be one of the great musical masterpieces of my lifetime. I can (and sometimes do) listen to it several times a day and never get tired of it. It's just musical perfection. I've only heard one cover of it, and it's pretty good.

[mirkwood]

Nothing makes Tainted Love a good song.

 

Now masterpieces...Moving Pictures is one of them.

 

 

[Vort]

5 minutes ago, mirkwood said:

Nothing makes Tainted Love a good song.

Funny thing is that I never was a big fan of the song, which came out (the Soft Cell version) the year I graduated from high school. It was okay, I guess, but I was much more into Zeppelin and Scorpions and such. But thirty-seven years later, with the benefit of much wider musical experience, I can see some real genius behind it.

Music is the closest thing to magic that I have ever experienced. How music can affect us as it does boggles the mind. It's almost as if music has a backdoor entry to our spirit that bypasses our rationality and prefrontal cortex and speaks directly to our essential selves. Which I suppose is why music can be so dangerous, as well.

[Guest Scott]

One of the best songs ever, but they don't play it on the radio anymore:

 

[Guest Scott]

Quote

This is most easily seen when you have numerous covers of the song, and none of the covers seems to be bad. 

Perhaps my favorite song, and the one that has probably been covered the most times is Scarborough Fair (there are literally hundreds of covers).  I hope no one minds too much about my rambling about the song, but it is my favorite, for many reasons.  I have spent a lot of years researching the song, since it's so fascinating to me.

I don't know how many people from the US know this, but the song is very old.   By "old", I don't mean Simon and Garfunkle's 1966 version, but the song dates back to at least the 1300's (Wiki has the dates wrong in this regard, but I don't know how to incorporate the source edits).  

Simon and Garfunkle are actually singing two unrelated songs in the below version, which can cause confusion (Scarborough Fair being the very old song and Canticle, based on the song "On the Side of the Hill, being an anti war song-the two songs are actually completely unrelated  in both time and meaning):

Based on old copies found in a London Library, the  first "impossible task" of the Scarborough Fair song sung in the above version dates from the mid 1500's and traces of the remaining versus (written in Middle English) date to at least the 1300's.

The song is about impossible tasks:

Quote

Tell her to make me a cambric shirt

Without no seams nor needle work

Cambric cloth was invented in the 1500's by the French and is tight woven with seams and lots of needlework.

(the following verses are traditionally sung by a female; the song is a duet)

Quote

Tell her to find me and acre of land

Between the salt water and the sea strand 

Sea strand is another word for for shore line.  There is no land between the salt water and shoreline, thus the task is impossible.  

Since this verse dates back to at least the 1300's, it is sometimes proposed that might mean an island, which might be land between the salt water and shoreline.   At that time period though, searching for an island in the middle of the ocean was thought to be suicidal, which is perhaps an alternate meaning.

Quote

Quote

Tell her to reap it in a sickle of leather

And gather it all in a bunch of heather

 

 

This is a duel impossible task.  First of all, leather is soft and you can't reap anything with a sickle of leather.  Heather also grows only in the highlands of the British Isles and not by the shoreline.  

================================================================================================

No one knows the true meaning of the song and the true meaning has been lost to time.   The song can have a thousand meanings and interpretations (one reason it is my favorite song).

Scarborough Fair was a trading gathering that thrived between the years 1253 and 1383.   After 1383, the fair waned, but still existed on and off until 1788, at which time it was never held again.  Many musicians of the time were often illiterate so different versions of this song could have been sung for centuries before the lyrics were written down.  

Here are some possible interpretations of the song:

The simplest explanation is that the song is about two lovers who hurt (or betrayed) each other, and although they still love each other, one sends a message to the other saying that he/she can't take him/her back.   He/she will only do so once the impossible task are completed.

Parsley, Sage, Rosemary, and Thyme are also herbs that represent certain virtues and qualities related to romantic love.  See here:

https://davesgarden.com/guides/articles/view/4394

Coincidentally, those same herbs were also herbs carried around to ward off the Black Death (more on this below).

Other interpretations are similar to the above, but say that the song was meant to me more comical rather than somber; sort of a "yeah-I'll take you back-when pigs fly!", kind of a thing, to put it in modern terms.

Other interpretations of the song say that the song is meant to say that love is hard, but it isn't meant to be impossible, even if it seems that way.   This is perhaps my favorite interpretation.  Some  versions of the song have the following verse or verses after the impossible task (sometimes the words are just "love" rather than "true love", versions vary:
 

Quote

True love imposes impossible tasks
But not anymore than any heart asks

Given the time period, along with the herbs mentioned, many people think the song is about the black death.

The song can be meant to sing from either the dying (or even dead) or him or her who's lover is dying.

It is possible that the song is about a lover who catches the black plague.   He or she send a messenger to the other lover letting him/her know that he/she has the plague and the lover can't ever see/him or her again.

It is also possible that the lover is singing of his or her love who died from the plague and the lover knows that it is impossible for them to be together (this church didn't exist back then of course).  It could also refer to death in general, rather than just the plague, but the herb connection does bring up the possibility of the plague connection.

Yet another possible interpretation is that the song is a riddle and the tasks aren't impossible at all.   They are simply coded and only the lovers know the true meaning.  They might even be sexual in nature.

So, there are many interpretations of the song.  Scarborough Fair is the song with at least a thousand meanings.  Mentioned are just some possible interpretations of the song's meaning.   What are yours?

Here are some of my favorite covers (besides the Simon and Garfunkel version of the song):
 

 

This version isn't so old, but it plays on the death theme.   The words aren't coded and there aren't impossible tasks.   This is still one of the most hauntingly (and it is very haunting) beautiful versions of any song ever recorded.  
 

Carly Simon uses the version that the song is a positive one and that love is difficult, but obtainable.   I don't think the videos are on the internet anymore, but here are the lyrics:

 

Quote

Are you going to Scarborough Fair?
Parsley, sage, rosemary and thyme
Remember me to one who lives there
He once was a true love of mine

Ask him to find me an acre of land
Parsley, sage, rosemary and thyme
Between the sea foam and over the sand
And then he'll be a true love of mine

If he tells me he can't, I'll reply
Parsley, sage, rosemary and thyme
Let me know at least he will try
And then he'll be a true love of mine

Love, it imposes impossible tasks
Parsley, sage, rosemary and thyme
Though not any more than any heart asks
He once was a true love of mine

Anyway, sorry for the ramble.   As you can tell, I find the song very interesting.   There are hundreds of covers dating back hundreds of years.  

 

Edited September 13, 2018 by Scott

[mirkwood]

I listened to Celtic Woman (first vid) sing.  I still don't like that song.  Celtic Woman can sing.  Beautiful voice.

[Guest MormonGator]

The rule of thumb I use is if @mirkwood likes it, it's probably not a good song. 

Btw, I'm going to see Stryper tonight in Orlando! Woo-hoo!  

[unixknight]

On 9/12/2018 at 7:39 AM, jerome1232 said:

I hate to break it to you Vort, but Jim Carrey has indeed stared in A Christmas Carol.

https://www.imdb.com/title/tt1067106/

I'm rather partial to A Muppet Christmas Carol myself.

And that Jim Carrey version was surprisingly good, too.

My favorite is the Patrick Stewart version, and not because I'm a rabid Trekkie.

On topic: I HATE Tainted Love.  And now I'm mad at @Vort because it's stuck in my head.  "Vort" is indeed a 4 letter word.

Edited September 13, 2018 by unixknight

[Barrett Maximus]

*i havent commented on a topic here for years, this one sucked me in. as a lover of soul music i just had to post the original version of the tainted love song by Gloria Jones

 

 

[Guest]

On 9/12/2018 at 12:21 AM, Vort said:

I have noticed that some stories are just so good, so solid, so right, that it is nearly impossible to kill them. Even bad representations of the story are good. A Christmas Carol springs to mind; I have seen many film versions of that short novel, and I have never seen one that was irredeemably bad. (Probably because they never made one with Jim Carrey or Mike Meyers.) I remember watching one starring, no kidding, Mister Magoo! And though it was no great work of art, it was not awful. It even had its moments. Pride and Prejudice seems to be cast from the same mold (though I admit that I have never seen a Mr. Magoo version of P&P).

This same phenomenon exists in music. Some songs are Just Plain Good. This is most easily seen when you have numerous covers of the song, and none of the covers seems to be bad. Tainted Love appears to be one of those. As Scott taught me this morning, the 1981 Soft Cell version that most of us are familiar with was not the original; that honor goes to Gloria Jones, whose version is really beautiful and now stands as my favorite. Listening to that version, you quickly realize that this is a "heartbroken woman" song cast in the '60s early rock mode. It just works great. 

There have been quite a few covers of Tainted Love, the most popular obviously being Soft Cell's version, which introduced an early '80s synth-pop sensibility. Most of these covers were sung by men, who changed "girl" to "boy", and this really gives a different take on the lyrics. (A very good different take, in my judgment.) As mentioned on the Scorpions thread, the Scorpions covered it, and served up a creditable metal version. Marilyn Manson's version of it is about as weird as Manson himself, but is not awful. Women's versions do exist, of course. Here's a slow, thoughful version apparently done for a popular TV show. Here's a sort of minimalist version, done for another TV show. And here's a ska version, which is kind of fun to hear. Still waiting for Weird Al's polka version.

What you're describing is the "story" or "message" of the song ... or Christmas Carol.  They're timeless messages told in a very meaningful and truthful way.

The tune is rather rudimentary.  But it is melodic with a very repetitive background.  That is the key to all the most popular songs.  It's basically a hypnotic effect.  Sorry if I ruined it for you.

[Guest]

On 9/13/2018 at 1:31 AM, Scott said:

One of the best songs ever, but they don't play it on the radio anymore:

I can't imagine why.

[Guest]

On 9/13/2018 at 2:24 AM, Scott said:

Simon and Garfunkle are actually singing two unrelated songs in the below version, which can cause confusion (Scarborough Fair being the very old song and Canticle, based on the song "On the Side of the Hill, being an anti war song-the two songs are actually completely unrelated  in both time and meaning):

Based on old copies found in a London Library, the  first "impossible task" of the Scarborough Fair song sung in the above version dates from the mid 1500's and traces of the remaining versus (written in Middle English) date to at least the 1300's.

The song is about impossible tasks:

I kinda wonder if they were more aware of politics than the average pops stars of the era.  In their album Parsley, Sage, Rosemary, & Thyme, this song and the 7 o'clock news/Silent Night bookended the album.  But when you play these two songs together, they make for a very telling subtext to both songs.  Combine that message of the political climate of the day with the social message of changes that technology is evoking -- even more so today and you see some amazing awareness in their work.

I've also found their works to be the most poetic that came out of the 60s.  The beauty and imagery of Dangling Conversation or For Emily Wherever I May Find Her are among the most beautifully written lyrics I've ever heard or read.  And the song Patterns is almost a showcase of imagery.

[Guest]

The first lines are the quintessential example of painting a picture with words.

Quote

The wind was a torrent of darkness among the gusty trees.
The moon was a ghostly galleon tossed upon the cloudy seas.
The road was a ribbon of moonlight over the purple moor.
The highway man came riding... riding... riding...
The highway man came riding upto the old inn door.

 

[Vort]

2 hours ago, Carborendum said:

The tune is rather rudimentary.  But it is melodic with a very repetitive background.  That is the key to all the most popular songs.  It's basically a hypnotic effect.  Sorry if I ruined it for you.

Not at all. But there must be more to it than this. This description could be used for much of Mozart's music, for example. Most western music is tuneful and built around a "motive".

[Laniston]

I can't think of a song like that for me, like a perfect song I think everyone would love, though a personal favourite is Time Turned Fragile by Motion City Soundtrack.

 

I do have a favourite lyric, just one snippet from a song called Pamphleteer by the Weakerthans.

 

"Like I don't know what I should do

With my hands when I talk to you.

And you don't know where you should look.

So you look at my hands."

 

Perfectly encapsulates the awkwardness I feel when talking to pretty much everyone.

Edited September 18, 2018 by Laniston