Strength made perfect in weakness

[zil]

 

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7 And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure.

8 For this thing I besought the Lord thrice, that it might depart from me.

9 And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.

10 Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in necessities, in persecutions, in distresses for Christ’s sake: for when I am weak, then am I strong.

https://www.lds.org/scriptures/nt/2-cor/12.9?lang=eng#p8

So, the bit in bold was part of the talk Until Seventy Times Seven from last GC, which was our RS lesson last Sunday, which I taught.  I was struck by that phrase and wondered exactly what that meant - so we discussed it in the lesson.  I'm curious what your thoughts are (before I share any of our discussion).

[Fether]

24 minutes ago, zil said:

 

https://www.lds.org/scriptures/nt/2-cor/12.9?lang=eng#p8

So, the bit in bold was part of the talk Until Seventy Times Seven from last GC, which was our RS lesson last Sunday, which I taught.  I was struck by that phrase and wondered exactly what that meant - so we discussed it in the lesson.  I'm curious what your thoughts are (before I share any of our discussion).

Some other relevant scriptural events:

Nephi says the following in 1 Nephi 17

”47 Behold, my soul is rent with anguish because of you, and my heart is pained; I fear lest ye shall be cast off forever. Behold, I am full of the Spirit of God, insomuch that my frame has no strength.
48 And now it came to pass that when I had spoken these words they were angry with me, and were desirous to throw me into the depths of the sea; and as they came forth to lay their hands upon me I spake unto them, saying: In the name of the Almighty God, I command you that ye touch me not, for I am filled with the power of God, even unto the consuming of my flesh; and whoso shall lay his hands upon me shall wither even as a dried reed; and he shall be as naught before the power of God, for God shall smite him.”

God took away Nephi’s strength and replaced it with his own.

other events:

- Stripling Warriors

- Amulek when speaking to Zeezrom

- When the people of Alma had burdens laid on them by Ammulon (Mosiah 24)

All these examples were preceded by humility.

So it appears to me that our strength is not only significantly less than the strength of God, but also completely different. Our strength is based on our current ability where as God’s strength is infinite. We pull upon his strength purely through humility, purity and faith. All of which are not associated with our understanding of “strength”.

[Jersey Boy]

2 hours ago, zil said:

 

https://www.lds.org/scriptures/nt/2-cor/12.9?lang=eng#p8

So, the bit in bold was part of the talk Until Seventy Times Seven from last GC, which was our RS lesson last Sunday, which I taught.  I was struck by that phrase and wondered exactly what that meant - so we discussed it in the lesson.  I'm curious what your thoughts are (before I share any of our discussion).

When Christ was in the Garden of Gethsemane, he became acutely aware of his weakness as he contemplated the unimaginable suffering he would be required to endure in order to successfully work out the infinite and eternal atoning sacrifice. The painful awareness of the weakness he perceived within himself caused him to plead with his Father three times that he might not be required to drink of the bitter cup of divime wrath against sin. But because he was ultimately willing to go through with the sacrifice, even though in his own will wanted to shrink from the task, in mercy the Father sent a mighty angel from heaven to bless and strengthen the Lord in order to make him equal to what was being required of him. After having received divine strength from the angel the Lord was able to pray to his Father more earnestly; cease to plead with the Father to, if possible, remove the bitter cup; begin the process of suffering for our sins as he shed great gouts of atoning blood; allow his will to be swallowed up in the will of the Father. From time to time, even the Savior of the world needed to receive additional strength from heaven, and it was in Gethsemane that he perfectly demonstrated how we can be spiritually strengthened by God after acknowledging the limitations of our human weaknesses.

Edited September 14, 2018 by Jersey Boy

[Anddenex]

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for my strength is made perfect in weakness

I believe the simple meaning of this verse is that when we are weak we are strong in Christ. It is through the weak things of this earth that the Lord proclaims his gospel. It was the prayer of a young man (14) that the Lord answered and commenced the restoration.

This verse given by Paul I believe highlights the bolded statement even more, "For I am the least of the apostles, that am not meet to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God." (emphasis mine)

Although he considered himself the least of the apostles, due to previous decisions, the Lord made him mighty in speaking - thus - for my strength is made perfect in weakness. When we are weak -- a recognition of the natural man and a decision toward humility - the atonement of Christ provides an enabling power that strengthens my weakness in the eyes of those who love God.

I have found it very interesting when I have given a lesson or talk that I felt was very weak only to hear others say how impressed and inspired they were from the lesson or talk. In this my strength was made perfect in weakness, which I believe his next phrase defines what he was saying, "Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me." Our strength, which is made perfect in weakness, is the atonement of Christ (his grace).

 

[wenglund]

5 hours ago, zil said:

 "...for my strength is made perfect in weakness.."

I like what others have said, but I would also add that the heading for 2 Cor. 12 states in part, "...The Lord gives men weaknesses that they may triumph over them."

As intimated in verses 8 and 9, perfection comes not by praying to God to remove the thorns in our sides or relieve the buffetings of Satan, etc,, but by God providing us with the grace sufficient to bear and work through our challenges.  By relying on Christ's perfect strength, we may rise above our weaknesses and eventually become perfect in strength even as Christ.

Said another way, without those weaknesses we would lack the wherewithal to become perfect in strength.

Herein I find some justification for leaving the tranquility of our heavenly home and journeying to the harsh and malevolent environs of fallen earth, with its harrowing trials and tribulations and vale of tears.  The philosophical problem of pain and suffering thereby ironically becomes not only the answer to the question of the existence of God, but also the meaning of mortal life.

The mind reels from the depth of wisdom buried in plain sight within certain passages of scripture.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[JohnsonJones]

It could also be looked at in regards to pride (which I suppose could also be a weakness).  If one has no weaknesses and only is strong in everything they could be lifted up (or exalted) in their own minds of how great and wonderful they are.

On the otherhand, our weaknesses, especially when they are blatantly apparent, serve to bring us back down to earth.  They make us humble enough to accept the advice and words of others.

On a different note, something I noticed from the talk you posted...

Quote

In 1970, as a new freshman at BYU, I enrolled in a beginning course on the essentials of physics taught by Jae Ballif, an outstanding professor. After finishing each unit of the course, he would administer an exam. If a student received a C and wanted a better grade, Professor Ballif would allow the student to take a modified exam covering the same material. If the student received a B on the second attempt and was still unsatisfied, he or she could take the test a third time and a fourth, and so on. By allowing me numerous second chances, he helped me excel and finally earn an A in his class.

He was an uncommonly wise professor who inspired his students to keep trying—to consider failure as a tutor, not as a tragedy, and to not fear failure but to learn from it.

Recently I telephoned this great man 47 years after taking his physics course. I asked him why he was willing to allow students unlimited attempts to improve their grade. His response: “I wanted to be on the same side as the students.”

I don't think I could do this, but it does seem like an excellent way to actually get students to LEARN.  In a place where you do not have to worry about grade inflation, this seems like an excellent way to try to convince students to actually learn the material.  Great idea if one could have it as a viable method today (though as I said, grade inflation is something the universities are always guarded against and thus would make this an impossibility with me and with many others).

[CV75]

15 hours ago, zil said:

 

https://www.lds.org/scriptures/nt/2-cor/12.9?lang=eng#p8

So, the bit in bold was part of the talk Until Seventy Times Seven from last GC, which was our RS lesson last Sunday, which I taught.  I was struck by that phrase and wondered exactly what that meant - so we discussed it in the lesson.  I'm curious what your thoughts are (before I share any of our discussion).

Referring to D&C 113:7-8, the strength is the authority of the priesthood. I think Christ's priesthood authority is made perfect (or complete) when He shared it with others, that is with the saints who are weak and humble to receive His grace, relating to Ether 12:27. As we are sealed in the temple, this family of God , with Christ being the Father of our rebirth, becomes more and more complete.

[Guest]

15 hours ago, zil said:

I was struck by that phrase and wondered exactly what that meant - so we discussed it in the lesson.  I'm curious what your thoughts are (before I share any of our discussion).

I'm putting together a thought about strength in weakness.  I'll post it soon.  But part of it is:

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28 And it came to pass that the God of heaven looked upon the residue of the people, and he wept; and Enoch bore record of it, saying: How is it that the heavens weep, and shed forth their tears as the rain upon the mountains?

29 And Enoch said unto the Lord: How is it that thou canst weep, seeing thou art holy, and from all eternity to all eternity?

Moses 7

If you've ever heard of Brene Brown, you know where I'm going with this.

Quote

“as adults we realize that to live with courage, purpose, and connection—to be the people we long to be—we must again be vulnerable. The courage to be vulnerable means taking off the armor we use to protect ourselves, putting down the weapons that we use to keep people at a distance, showing up, and letting ourselves be seen.” 

-Brene Brown; Rising Strong

That which the world calls weakness is actually strength when based in courage.  The weak and strong alike will always desire to work from a position of strength.  But only the truly strong will work from positions of complete vulnerability.  They will seek out opportunities to do good in areas where they have no power.  And God Himself works in areas where the All-Powerful have no power -- the free agency of others.

[zil]

2 hours ago, Carborendum said:

I'm putting together a thought about strength in weakness.  I'll post it soon.

I'll wait.

[Traveler]

19 hours ago, zil said:

 for my strength is made perfect in weakness.

Unless your weakness is procrastination. 

 

The Traveler

[zil]

1 minute ago, Traveler said:

Unless your weakness is procrastination. 

 

The Traveler

It is relevant that it's the Lord talking here.  If we were to take this quote and turn it into the third person, we would have:

Christ's strength is made perfect in weakness.

(I'm holding off on saying more at least until Carb has posted his full reply.)

[Vort]

Our strength is made perfect only when we allow God to work through us, which requires humility. It is often through our weaknesses that we are made humble, and thus able to perfect our strength.

[Guest]

34 minutes ago, zil said:

It is relevant that it's the Lord talking here.  If we were to take this quote and turn it into the third person, we would have:

Christ's strength is made perfect in weakness.

(I'm holding off on saying more at least until Carb has posted his full reply.)

I'm realizing now that I'm having a tough time conveying all that I've been pondering for the past couple of months.  I had intertwined my thoughts of this thread and the other one I just started.  While they did indeed feed each other, I'm having difficulty putting that connection into words.  

So, here are my thoughts on this thread.  And maybe you can piece together why it was so important to developing my other thoughts.

• Being vulnerable to the Lord and being willing to abandon our own assumptions and prejudices about right and wrong and depending entirely on the Lord for both strength and revelation is what is required to be a true disciple of Christ.  Not my will, but thine...
• Being vulnerable to man for the Lord's sake is the crucible that refines our faith into the faith of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.  And, here, Paul.

Somewhat similar to C.S. Lewis' writing on giving ourselves to Christ so that He can give us a new self -- Himself.

[zil]

I think this thread has at least touched on all the edges of what we discussed in RS last Sunday, and a little more (which is to be expected, and is a good thing, IMO).  There's one thing we discussed in more detail than has been touched on here.

First, from the context, we know that it's Christ's strength which is made perfect in man's weakness.  (The context is discussing why Paul's weakness was not healed / taken away, and the reason is as stated in the previous sentence.)

When I asked "How is Christ's strength made perfect in our weakness?" I got deer-in-headlights stares.  So instead I asked, "What are Christ's strengths?"  More deer in headlights until someone finally said, "everything" - and then we started noting some examples of Christ's strengths - things like mercy, knowledge, obedience, power, charity, his relationship with the Father, etc.  When we had several, I asked again, "How are these strengths made perfect through our weakness?"

I think this is a different way of thinking, because we tend to think Christ simply was perfect, the end.  True as that may be, the Lord told Paul that the Lord's strength was made perfect in man's weakness.  So we proceeded to discuss how that was...

We talked a little about how if none of us needed (or if none of us accepted) any of His strengths, what good would all those strengths do?  What would they accomplish?  His own exaltation alone - perhaps.  Is it possible to be perfect alone?  (Remember @Fether's recent thread about how we and our dead need each other to be made perfect?)

Because of our weakness, His strengths have a purpose - to lift us - to perfect us.  His mercy is perfected by extending it to us.  (What good is mercy if no one needs or accepts it?)  His knowledge is perfected by revealing to us the truths of His gospel.  Etc.  By extending His sufficient grace (Ether 12:27), we are made perfect and therein His grace is made perfect - in Him and in us.

We also discussed that our weakness keeps us humble and seeking after His strength.

This seems to me to be a pattern - can our humility (for example) be made perfect in only one direction (needing His mercy)?  Probably not - we also need to forgive, be gracious and slow to offend, etc.  We need to extend our weakness and strengths in both directions - seeking help from the Lord and extending help to others - and then both our weakness and our strength are (eventually) made perfect - in ourselves and in others.