Independence Missouri/Confusing prophecies

[Queolby]

First things first. I am not as frustrated as this might sound but here I go. Also, this is just something that has always itched at me.

Sometimes I feel like the prophecies that Joseph Smith frequently gave during the excursions are flawed and so we're trying to explain unfulfilled prophecy. Almost like the attitude is, "Go here to Zion," or, "Now God says go there," "now there," "Okay now lets go back," "Off to Zion!" "Actually, Zion is in our hearts." "Leave Jackson Missouri" "THIS IS THE PLACE!" The revelations in D&C 57:1-5; 84:4-5; 136:18 They imply that the prophecies shall be fulfilled at THAT time of the saints. So they came up with a scapegoat to explain unfulfilled prophecy. 
For example: 42:35 and 57:1-5 

42:35 And for the purpose of purchasing lands for the public benefit of the church, and building houses of worship, and building up of the New Jerusalem which is hereafter to be revealed(The Prophecy) NEXT:
57: 1 Hearken, O ye elders of my church, saith the Lord your God, who have assembled yourselves together, according to my commandments, in this land, which is the land of Missouri, which is the land which I have appointed and consecrated for the gathering of the saints.2 Wherefore, this is the land of promise, and the place for the city of Zion.(Brigham said, "This is the Place" in salt lake valley)3 And thus saith the Lord your God, if you will receive wisdom here is wisdom. Behold, the place which is now called Independence is the center place; and a spot for the temple is lying westward, upon a lot which is not far from the courthouse.4 Wherefore, it is wisdom that the land should be purchased by the saints, and also every tract lying westward, even unto the line running directly between Jew and Gentile;(What does this mean??)5 And also every tract bordering by the prairies, inasmuch as my disciples are enabled to buy lands. Behold, this is wisdom, that they may obtain it for an everlasting inheritance

Also, 84:4-5: 4 Verily this is the word of the Lord, that the city New Jerusalem shall be built by the gathering of the saints, beginning at this place, even the place of the temple, which temple shall be reared in this generation.( ' In this generation' implies the saints at that time will see it come to fruition.) 5 For verily THIS generation shall not all pass away until an house shall be built unto the Lord, and a cloud shall rest upon it, which cloud shall be even the glory of the Lord, which shall fill the house.       97: 11 Yea, let it be built speedily, by the tithing of my people.   

God changing his mind in D&C 136:18 Zion shall be redeemed in mine own due time.

 

Thanks for giving me your time!

Edited September 25, 2018 by Queolby

[Suzie]

The line running directly between Jew and Gentile refers to the physical location separating Missouri from Indian Territory (to the west). You can read more here:

https://history.lds.org/article/doctrine-and-covenants-land-of-zion?lang=eng

[goor_de]

10 hours ago, Queolby said:

 

God changing his mind in D&C 136:18 Zion shall be redeemed in mine own due time.

 

Thanks for giving me your time!

when I read the scriptures.

then i see that god often changes his opinion.
that was already at adam so, at noah, abraham, thyros, ninive, jesus, the temple not built. Far west, the reunion of jesus
to give a few examples

[Emmanuel Goldstein]

The reason Zion has not been redeemed is on us, not the Lord.

D&C 100:13-17 gives more light.

13 And now I give unto you a word concerning Zion. Zion shall be redeemed, although she is chastened for a little season.
14 Thy brethren, my servants Orson Hyde and John Gould, are in my hands; and inasmuch as they keep my commandments they shall be saved.
15 Therefore, let your hearts be comforted; for all things shall work together for good to them that walk uprightly, and to the sanctification of the church.
16 For I will raise up unto myself a pure people, that will serve me in righteousness;
17 And all that call upon the name of the Lord, and keep his commandments, shall be saved. Even so. Amen.

[Guest]

On 9/24/2018 at 8:00 PM, Queolby said:

First things first. I am not as frustrated as this might sound but here I go. Also, this is just something that has always itched at me.

Sometimes I feel like the prophecies that Joseph Smith frequently gave during the excursions are flawed and so we're trying to explain unfulfilled prophecy. Almost like the attitude is, "Go here to Zion," or, "Now God says go there," "now there," "Okay now lets go back," "Off to Zion!" "Actually, Zion is in our hearts." "Leave Jackson Missouri" "THIS IS THE PLACE!" The revelations in D&C 57:1-5; 84:4-5; 136:18 They imply that the prophecies shall be fulfilled at THAT time of the saints. So they came up with a scapegoat to explain unfulfilled prophecy. 
For example: 42:35 and 57:1-5 

42:35 And for the purpose of purchasing lands for the public benefit of the church, and building houses of worship, and building up of the New Jerusalem which is hereafter to be revealed(The Prophecy) NEXT:
57: 1 Hearken, O ye elders of my church, saith the Lord your God, who have assembled yourselves together, according to my commandments, in this land, which is the land of Missouri, which is the land which I have appointed and consecrated for the gathering of the saints.2 Wherefore, this is the land of promise, and the place for the city of Zion.(Brigham said, "This is the Place" in salt lake valley)3 And thus saith the Lord your God, if you will receive wisdom here is wisdom. Behold, the place which is now called Independence is the center place; and a spot for the temple is lying westward, upon a lot which is not far from the courthouse.4 Wherefore, it is wisdom that the land should be purchased by the saints, and also every tract lying westward, even unto the line running directly between Jew and Gentile;(What does this mean??)5 And also every tract bordering by the prairies, inasmuch as my disciples are enabled to buy lands. Behold, this is wisdom, that they may obtain it for an everlasting inheritance

Also, 84:4-5: 4 Verily this is the word of the Lord, that the city New Jerusalem shall be built by the gathering of the saints, beginning at this place, even the place of the temple, which temple shall be reared in this generation.( ' In this generation' implies the saints at that time will see it come to fruition.) 5 For verily THIS generation shall not all pass away until an house shall be built unto the Lord, and a cloud shall rest upon it, which cloud shall be even the glory of the Lord, which shall fill the house.       97: 11 Yea, let it be built speedily, by the tithing of my people.   

God changing his mind in D&C 136:18 Zion shall be redeemed in mine own due time.

Thanks for giving me your time!

This entire story you allude to is a parallel to Ancient Israel.  We tried setting up there just as the Jews did.  But due to a lack of faithfulness, we (both) were kicked out.  And we wander.  But the promise is still there for us once we come out from the Lord's condemnation.

As for Zion being in our hearts or having multiple places of refuge, I believe they are both true as well.  But they have different meanings.  Regardless of these other meanings, the temple WILL BE BUILT in Missouri.  And it WILL BE a gathering place for the Saints.  But it will not be necessary for ALL the Saints to gather there.  Many righteous Saints will remain wherever they are in the world.

[Anddenex]

On 9/24/2018 at 7:00 PM, Queolby said:

First things first. I am not as frustrated as this might sound but here I go. Also, this is just something that has always itched at me.

Sometimes I feel like the prophecies that Joseph Smith frequently gave during the excursions are flawed and so we're trying to explain unfulfilled prophecy. Almost like the attitude is, "Go here to Zion," or, "Now God says go there," "now there," "Okay now lets go back," "Off to Zion!" "Actually, Zion is in our hearts." "Leave Jackson Missouri" "THIS IS THE PLACE!" The revelations in D&C 57:1-5; 84:4-5; 136:18 They imply that the prophecies shall be fulfilled at THAT time of the saints. So they came up with a scapegoat to explain unfulfilled prophecy. 
For example: 42:35 and 57:1-5 

42:35 And for the purpose of purchasing lands for the public benefit of the church, and building houses of worship, and building up of the New Jerusalem which is hereafter to be revealed(The Prophecy) NEXT:
57: 1 Hearken, O ye elders of my church, saith the Lord your God, who have assembled yourselves together, according to my commandments, in this land, which is the land of Missouri, which is the land which I have appointed and consecrated for the gathering of the saints.2 Wherefore, this is the land of promise, and the place for the city of Zion.(Brigham said, "This is the Place" in salt lake valley)3 And thus saith the Lord your God, if you will receive wisdom here is wisdom. Behold, the place which is now called Independence is the center place; and a spot for the temple is lying westward, upon a lot which is not far from the courthouse.4 Wherefore, it is wisdom that the land should be purchased by the saints, and also every tract lying westward, even unto the line running directly between Jew and Gentile;(What does this mean??)5 And also every tract bordering by the prairies, inasmuch as my disciples are enabled to buy lands. Behold, this is wisdom, that they may obtain it for an everlasting inheritance

Also, 84:4-5: 4 Verily this is the word of the Lord, that the city New Jerusalem shall be built by the gathering of the saints, beginning at this place, even the place of the temple, which temple shall be reared in this generation.( ' In this generation' implies the saints at that time will see it come to fruition.) 5 For verily THIS generation shall not all pass away until an house shall be built unto the Lord, and a cloud shall rest upon it, which cloud shall be even the glory of the Lord, which shall fill the house.       97: 11 Yea, let it be built speedily, by the tithing of my people.   

God changing his mind in D&C 136:18 Zion shall be redeemed in mine own due time.

 

Thanks for giving me your time!

A couple of questions:

What do you think of Moses prophecy telling the Children of Israel that they would all live in a promise land, only to wander in the wilderness for 40 years and for many to never reach the promised land?

What do you think about Lehi and Nephi's experience in obtaining the promised land as prophesied by Lehi? For example, how many times (if Laman and Lemuel did not repent) did the Lord almost remove that promise? (one hint, think about the ship experience as one)

 

[CV75]

On 9/24/2018 at 9:00 PM, Queolby said:

First things first. I am not as frustrated as this might sound but here I go. Also, this is just something that has always itched at me.

Sometimes I feel like the prophecies that Joseph Smith frequently gave during the excursions are flawed and so we're trying to explain unfulfilled prophecy. Almost like the attitude is, "Go here to Zion," or, "Now God says go there," "now there," "Okay now lets go back," "Off to Zion!" "Actually, Zion is in our hearts." "Leave Jackson Missouri" "THIS IS THE PLACE!" The revelations in D&C 57:1-5; 84:4-5; 136:18 They imply that the prophecies shall be fulfilled at THAT time of the saints. So they came up with a scapegoat to explain unfulfilled prophecy. 
For example: 42:35 and 57:1-5 

42:35 And for the purpose of purchasing lands for the public benefit of the church, and building houses of worship, and building up of the New Jerusalem which is hereafter to be revealed(The Prophecy) NEXT:
57: 1 Hearken, O ye elders of my church, saith the Lord your God, who have assembled yourselves together, according to my commandments, in this land, which is the land of Missouri, which is the land which I have appointed and consecrated for the gathering of the saints.2 Wherefore, this is the land of promise, and the place for the city of Zion.(Brigham said, "This is the Place" in salt lake valley)3 And thus saith the Lord your God, if you will receive wisdom here is wisdom. Behold, the place which is now called Independence is the center place; and a spot for the temple is lying westward, upon a lot which is not far from the courthouse.4 Wherefore, it is wisdom that the land should be purchased by the saints, and also every tract lying westward, even unto the line running directly between Jew and Gentile;(What does this mean??)5 And also every tract bordering by the prairies, inasmuch as my disciples are enabled to buy lands. Behold, this is wisdom, that they may obtain it for an everlasting inheritance

Also, 84:4-5: 4 Verily this is the word of the Lord, that the city New Jerusalem shall be built by the gathering of the saints, beginning at this place, even the place of the temple, which temple shall be reared in this generation.( ' In this generation' implies the saints at that time will see it come to fruition.) 5 For verily THIS generation shall not all pass away until an house shall be built unto the Lord, and a cloud shall rest upon it, which cloud shall be even the glory of the Lord, which shall fill the house.       97: 11 Yea, let it be built speedily, by the tithing of my people.   

God changing his mind in D&C 136:18 Zion shall be redeemed in mine own due time.

 

Thanks for giving me your time!

You might be overthinking these sayings ad sticking with one literal interpretation. There are many prophecies about Zion in all the scriptures, and context is important. The New Jerusalem is one context. "This is the place" refers to the preparatory place for that. "Zion" is both, and in the mind and heart, and wherever a Church unit is operating.

Joseph received revealed instructions and commandments which had to change according to the heed with which the saints gave them. Prophecy is often a plan for what the Lord can bring about through the faithful who take heed (Note that He says, "if you will receive wisdom here is wisdom."). The revelations explain why the temple was not built in "this generation" after all. The vision of Zion will be realized eventually, through and for the faithful who sustain the prophets along the way. The redemption of Zion is needful because she stumbled along the way and did not meet the Lord's original timetable.

 

[Queolby]

1 hour ago, Anddenex said:

A couple of questions:

What do you think of Moses prophecy telling the Children of Israel that they would all live in a promise land, only to wander in the wilderness for 40 years and for many to never reach the promised land?

What do you think about Lehi and Nephi's experience in obtaining the promised land as prophesied by Lehi? For example, how many times (if Laman and Lemuel did not repent) did the Lord almost remove that promise? (one hint, think about the ship experience as one)

 

You make a really good point. Thank you!

[theplains]

On 9/24/2018 at 9:28 PM, Suzie said:

The line running directly between Jew and Gentile refers to the physical location separating Missouri from Indian Territory (to the west). 

You mean Lamanites, right?

[Guest Scott]

On 9/29/2018 at 11:00 AM, theplains said:

You mean Lamanites, right?

No, she means present day Oklahoma.  Oklahoma was Indian Territory at the time.  Jackson County Missouri bordered on Indian Territory.  

[askandanswer]

Doctrine and Covenants 55:4  Wherefore I, the Lord, command and revoke, as it seemeth me good; and all this to be answered upon the heads of the rebellious, saith the Lord.
 

[zil]

3 hours ago, askandanswer said:

Doctrine and Covenants 55:4  Wherefore I, the Lord, command and revoke, as it seemeth me good; and all this to be answered upon the heads of the rebellious, saith the Lord.
 

A timely citation if ever there was one.  Excuse me while I go file that away!  OK, that's not 55:4. (ETA it's 56:4 as A&A notes below.)

Edited October 6, 2018 by zil

[askandanswer]

Apologies for the misquote @zil it's actually 56:4

[zil]

4 minutes ago, askandanswer said:

Apologies for the misquote @zil it's actually 56:4

Oops, sorry.  I discovered that and meant to note it in my reply, but by the time I came back to it, I forgot.  (And didn't review my own post.)