7 Year Old Asks "can We Fake It?"

[prisonchaplain]

I was reading the story of Shadrach, Mesach, and Abednigo to my three girls--the one in which King Nebuchanezzar had a huge statue built, and orders everyone to bow to it or be burned in the fiery furnace. Afterwards, my oldest (7) asks, "Could they have just bowed down, pretending to worship, but really only worship God in our hearts?

Well, this question has continued through history, I told her. Some Christians have done that. Surely God can forgive them. BUT, others have refused to bow--even accepting death.

If you pretend to bow, and then later tell your non-believing friends that they should put their faith in your God, what will they know about you? "I'm a liar," she answered.

My observation: I have a special child!

What are your thoughts on the question my daughter raised?

[susieSA]

I was reading the story of Shadrach, Mesach, and Abednigo to my three girls--the one in which King Nebuchanezzar had a huge statue built, and orders everyone to bow to it or be burned in the fiery furnace. Afterwards, my oldest (7) asks, "Could they have just bowed down, pretending to worship, but really only worship God in our hearts?

Well, this question has continued through history, I told her. Some Christians have done that. Surely God can forgive them. BUT, others have refused to bow--even accepting death.

If you pretend to bow, and then later tell your non-believing friends that they should put their faith in your God, what will they know about you? "I'm a liar," she answered.

My observation: I have a special child!

What are your thoughts on the question my daughter raised?

Awwww, PC...

You do indeed have a special child....

I love the question she asked :)

[mightynancy]

She's an insightful little girl!

Regarding the question, Revelation 3: 15-16 comes to mind...it's pretty clear that God wants us to take a stand.

I would imagine that in the very moment of choosing God or choosing death, it boils down to trusting Him, and believing that while your physical self is in danger, your soul is safe with Him. It is quite easy to think about it from the safety of my chair in my home...I can't fathom being faced with that choice!

[Moksha]

He who learns to bend a knee

lives to pray another day

[Elphaba]

What are your thoughts on the question my daughter raised?

Your little 7-year-old daughter is a lesson to me.

Elphaba

[Gwen]

that is beautiful pc. i don't disagree with your thoughts to your daughter about faking it.

if you don't mind though i'd like to turn the question around. not sure if other faiths teach this idea but i know i've heard it in many sunday school lessons.

there is a doctrine you've been asked to live and you don't have a testamony of it yet. what should you do? let's take paying tithing since it's a simple one. well there are a dozen scriptures like the one in ether to quote about not receiving a witness until after the trial of your faith so you should pay your tithing and be faithful and in doing so that faith will be tried and you will get your witness/testamony.

if you do that are you faking it? how is that faking it different from the other?

[mightynancy]

In one you're faking evil, in the other you're testing God. Either way, you're likely to internalize that which you're doing externally.

[checkerboy]

that is beautiful pc. i don't disagree with your thoughts to your daughter about faking it.

if you don't mind though i'd like to turn the question around. not sure if other faiths teach this idea but i know i've heard it in many sunday school lessons.

there is a doctrine you've been asked to live and you don't have a testamony of it yet. what should you do? let's take paying tithing since it's a simple one. well there are a dozen scriptures like the one in ether to quote about not receiving a witness until after the trial of your faith so you should pay your tithing and be faithful and in doing so that faith will be tried and you will get your witness/testamony.

if you do that are you faking it? how is that faking it different from the other?

I would direct you to this scripture: John 7:17

If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself.

In this case Jesus gave us the promise to know if what he has asked us to do is right. He will let us know. The way that it is different is that in one you are simply seeking your own life, while in the other you are seeking divine truth.

[Snow]

I was reading the story of Shadrach, Mesach, and Abednigo to my three girls--the one in which King Nebuchanezzar had a huge statue built, and orders everyone to bow to it or be burned in the fiery furnace. Afterwards, my oldest (7) asks, "Could they have just bowed down, pretending to worship, but really only worship God in our hearts?

Well, this question has continued through history, I told her. Some Christians have done that. Surely God can forgive them. BUT, others have refused to bow--even accepting death.

If you pretend to bow, and then later tell your non-believing friends that they should put their faith in your God, what will they know about you? "I'm a liar," she answered.

My observation: I have a special child!

What are your thoughts on the question my daughter raised?

Let's assume that those asked to bow down had wives and families to care for, teach and feed. Is it worth the torment and suffering those innocent families would go through just so some self-righteous, judgmental person doesn't think the "martyr" is a liar?

[AnthonyB]

In 2 Kings 5:17-18 Namaan got permission to bow to another God, I suppose that was because he wasn't in convenant with God unlike the Israelites and therefore the rules of the Law and the 10 commandments didn't directly apply to him.

[Lonasunde]

Let's assume that those asked to bow down had wives and families to care for, teach and feed. Is it worth the torment and suffering those innocent families would go through just so some self-righteous, judgmental person doesn't think the "martyr" is a liar?

I believe that if you put your trust in God, you'll find happiness. Maybe it would be agonizing for their families, but in the end their testimonies of God, and of what their loved ones had died for would be strengthend. Just like the Donner party of the LDS pioneers were never sorry for their trials as it brought them closer to their Heavenly Father, I think they would not regret the strength they recieved from their loved one's sacrifice.

[prisonchaplain]

that is beautiful pc. i don't disagree with your thoughts to your daughter about faking it.

if you don't mind though i'd like to turn the question around. not sure if other faiths teach this idea but i know i've heard it in many sunday school lessons.

there is a doctrine you've been asked to live and you don't have a testamony of it yet. what should you do? let's take paying tithing since it's a simple one. well there are a dozen scriptures like the one in ether to quote about not receiving a witness until after the trial of your faith so you should pay your tithing and be faithful and in doing so that faith will be tried and you will get your witness/testamony.

if you do that are you faking it? how is that faking it different from the other?

"Gaining a testimony," can be an ambiguous concept. For example, once you've gained a testimony that the Scriptures are true, if they command something that I don't like, I'm not faking it to obey. I may not feel like it. I may not like it. But, I know that it is true, because I trust the source.

Often these matters are not so clearcut, though. For example, based only on the Bible, is consuming alcohol in moderation a sin? I struggled with this in my early 20s. To this day I'm convinced that the Bible does not answer the question. It was never an issue in biblical times. For a season, then, I did consume. Then God called me to be a missionary. I did some serious soul searching. Ultimately, I concluded that I could not serve God and my church (an alcohol-abstinence movement), while drinking in moderation. For the sake then, of offering the most clearcut witness, and of preserving unity in my fellowship, I chose to give up my liberty in this area. I suppose you could call that "gaining a testimony."

Let's assume that those asked to bow down had wives and families to care for, teach and feed. Is it worth the torment and suffering those innocent families would go through just so some self-righteous, judgmental person doesn't think the "martyr" is a liar?

Of course there is more to martyrdom than not being known as a liar. The early church ran thick with the blood of martyrs--most of whom were spouses and parents. Also, the point of the question was not that we would not want people to think we were liars, but rather that, if we would lie about our allegiance to God, are we not communicating that our God is not one that we would suffer for--perhaps one that is not worth suffering for?

[Snow]

<div class='quotemain'>

Let's assume that those asked to bow down had wives and families to care for, teach and feed. Is it worth the torment and suffering those innocent families would go through just so some self-righteous, judgmental person doesn't think the "martyr" is a liar?

I believe that if you put your trust in God, you'll find happiness. Maybe it would be agonizing for their families, but in the end their testimonies of God, and of what their loved ones had died for would be strengthend. Just like the Donner party of the LDS pioneers were never sorry for their trials as it brought them closer to their Heavenly Father, I think they would not regret the strength they recieved from their loved one's sacrifice.

I do trust God and I trust that God wants me to care for, teach and feed my family.

Think about it for a moment - are you married with children or have you parents? Would you prefer your spouse or mother dead (with the attendant strength you'd receive from their sacrifice) or would you prefer them alive?

[prisonchaplain]

Snow, you know of course, that it can be even more direct than that: When persecution is at its worst, the parent is often forced to choose between bowing or death for him/her AND the whole family. I'm reminded of a contemporary Christian song by Keith Green, in which he declares that even if his son is kicked, beaten, and ridiculed, he will teach him to rejoice...counting all things lost for the gospel. Hard words to hear. Harder to live. But, while God can forgive compromise, the greater blessing comes with obedience.

AnthonyB noted one exception--that of Naaman. The only truth we know for sure is that God gave him specific permission. And, who's to say that Naaman would not have gotten the greater blessing by standing true to his newfound faith. Perhaps God knew he could not--that he was not yet mature enough or strong enough. Again, we can only speculate. But, clearly Naaman's permission was specific to him alone.

[Snow]

Snow, you know of course, that it can be even more direct than that: When persecution is at its worst, the parent is often forced to choose between bowing or death for him/her AND the whole family. I'm reminded of a contemporary Christian song by Keith Green, in which he declares that even if his son is kicked, beaten, and ridiculed, he will teach him to rejoice...counting all things lost for the gospel. Hard words to hear. Harder to live. But, while God can forgive compromise, the greater blessing comes with obedience.

... which is meaningless because no one is kicking and beating Keith Green's son on the account of Christianity, just as no one, in our circle of acquaintances at least, is choosing between bowing or pretending to ###### up to some king and death for the whole family.

I think the whole thing is kind of pointless. People talk a big game about living and dying for God but i the next breath fail to keep the Sabbath day holy, or at less than perfectly honest in their dealings with their fellow man or are unkind or fail to feed and clothe the needy. They'd be better off trying to be better Christians day to day than dying for to make a point and leaving their children to fend for themselves.

Of course there is more to martyrdom than not being known as a liar. The early church ran thick with the blood of martyrs--most of whom were spouses and parents. Also, the point of the question was not that we would not want people to think we were liars, but rather that, if we would lie about our allegiance to God, are we not communicating that our God is not one that we would suffer for--perhaps one that is not worth suffering for?

There is solid argument that the number of real martyrs was grossly exaggerated and that of those that really were martyrs, more than a few were whacked fanatics who leapt at the chance to become "martyrs" - suicidal for God so to speak.

[Traveler]

I was reading the story of Shadrach, Mesach, and Abednigo to my three girls--the one in which King Nebuchanezzar had a huge statue built, and orders everyone to bow to it or be burned in the fiery furnace. Afterwards, my oldest (7) asks, "Could they have just bowed down, pretending to worship, but really only worship God in our hearts?

Well, this question has continued through history, I told her. Some Christians have done that. Surely God can forgive them. BUT, others have refused to bow--even accepting death.

If you pretend to bow, and then later tell your non-believing friends that they should put their faith in your God, what will they know about you? "I'm a liar," she answered.

My observation: I have a special child!

What are your thoughts on the question my daughter raised?

Interesting. You do have an exceptional daughter - so allow me to ask. What would you do to keep your daughter from the fire? (an Abraham experience)

Also a question for a scripture expert. How come we remember Shadrach, Mesach, and Abednigo by their Babylonian names and Dainel by his Hebrew name. Since Shadrach, Mesach, and Abednigo had Hebrew names that no one remembers and Daniel had a Babylonian name that no one remembers.

The Traveler

[prisonchaplain]

... which is meaningless because no one is kicking and beating Keith Green's son on the account of Christianity, just as no one, in our circle of acquaintances at least, is choosing between bowing or pretending to ###### up to some king and death for the whole family.

Knowing our history, and also being aware of persecuted Christians around the world, could help us pray more, and also give us the very perspective you hint at below.

I think the whole thing is kind of pointless. People talk a big game about living and dying for God but i the next breath fail to keep the Sabbath day holy, or at less than perfectly honest in their dealings with their fellow man or are unkind or fail to feed and clothe the needy. They'd be better off trying to be better Christians day to day than dying for to make a point and leaving their children to fend for themselves.

Anyone can be a hypocrite. However, being aware of lives sacrificed, and of sufferings endured might also give us the motivation to live out our Christian lives with less reticence in our land of favor.

There is solid argument that the number of real martyrs was grossly exaggerated and that of those that really were martyrs, more than a few were whacked fanatics who leapt at the chance to become "martyrs" - suicidal for God so to speak.

Could be a few like that. I'm confident it is possible to be intellectually and historically honest, and at the same time asteem fallen martyrs. John the Revelator had no problem doing so.

[Maureen]

Also a question for a scripture expert. How come we remember Shadrach, Mesach, and Abednigo by their Babylonian names and Dainel by his Hebrew name. Since Shadrach, Mesach, and Abednigo had Hebrew names that no one remembers and Daniel had a Babylonian name that no one remembers.

I didn't know this so went to look it up:

Hananiah (Shadrach), Mishael (Meshach), and Azariah (Abednego)

The names in bold are the Hebrew names. I couldn't find the Babylonian name that Nebuchadrezzar would have called Daniel. Anyway, I learn something new everyday.

M.

[prisonchaplain]

Interesting. You do have an exceptional daughter - so allow me to ask. What would you do to keep your daughter from the fire? (an Abraham experience)

The closest we westerners come to this dilemma is when one of our children gets called to serve a mission in a far away and difficult land. God grant me the faith to bless them, bathe them in prayer, and consider it an honor that God selected them.

Also a question for a scripture expert. How come we remember Shadrach, Mesach, and Abednigo by their Babylonian names and Dainel by his Hebrew name. Since Shadrach, Mesach, and Abednigo had Hebrew names that no one remembers and Daniel had a Babylonian name that no one remembers.

The Traveler

Because that is how the stories are told in Sunday School (Primaries).

[a-train]

Few if any of us will be faced with death or the death of our family if we fail to keep a certain appearance of worldliness or some denial of the Gospel. What we WILL face is social pressure or rejection: the loss of friends and/or family though they are still living.

Some would consider keeping a family together more important than outward expression of faith. Some would even say that pretended denial of faith would be permissible to keep families together. It should be noted that the LDS believe that the will of family heads is to be obeyed even if it limits one's ability to live the gospel. We recognize their stewardship and acknowledge that God will hold them accountable and the obedient will be blessed.

I think it is good for one to demonstrate their faith or to share the gospel only to the extent that the spectators will endure it, unless the LORD directs otherwise.

Missionaries don't go door to door preaching strict obedience to the Word of Wisdom under penalty of hell. They teach faith in Jesus, repentance, and baptism, exhorting all to ponder and pray over the words of the LORD. They teach the Word of Wisdom when the investigator has been otherwise prepared.

Certainly we must live each moment as directed by the Spirit. I would not doubt that there could exist a situation wherein the LORD would be pleased and would want us to do in Rome as the Romans do in order to ultimately share the gospel, however you won't catch me drinking liquor or cursing or other things just to get in good with my fellow sinners.

-a-train

[Guest bizabra]

<div class='quotemain'>

I was reading the story of Shadrach, Mesach, and Abednigo to my three girls--the one in which King Nebuchanezzar had a huge statue built, and orders everyone to bow to it or be burned in the fiery furnace. Afterwards, my oldest (7) asks, "Could they have just bowed down, pretending to worship, but really only worship God in our hearts?

Well, this question has continued through history, I told her. Some Christians have done that. Surely God can forgive them. BUT, others have refused to bow--even accepting death.

If you pretend to bow, and then later tell your non-believing friends that they should put their faith in your God, what will they know about you? "I'm a liar," she answered.

My observation: I have a special child!

What are your thoughts on the question my daughter raised?

Let's assume that those asked to bow down had wives and families to care for, teach and feed. Is it worth the torment and suffering those innocent families would go through just so some self-righteous, judgmental person doesn't think the "martyr" is a liar?

BIZ: I'd fake it. I remember reading The Source by Michener when I was a young teenager. I was horrified that anyone would choose to die for their religious beliefs. I believe that no-one can force you to change your beliefs, no matter how much outward "lip service" you give to theirs in order to preserve your life or that of your children, so go ahead and "praise" the "false god" as energetically as you can if your life or the lives of your loved ones are at stake. How does this change what is in your heart?

I also am aghast at any parent who would disown their child for going against their beliefs. My Mom took us to see Fiddler on the Roof when I was about 13 or so. The scene where the "Papa" turns his back on his daughter who married a Russian just felt so wrong and terrible to me. How can anyone cast out their own flesh and blood because they married for love "out of the faith"? It spoiled the story for me, and made me hate the Papa. I imagined my own Father doing that to me and I couldn't believe he ever would, no matter what I did. How could any parent?

The stupid things people do for their religious "convictions" just makes me feel sick. The families destroyed and the lives ruined due to religion are legion and just plain wrong.

[prisonchaplain]

The stupid things people do for their religious "convictions" just makes me feel sick. The families destroyed and the lives ruined due to religion are legion and just plain wrong.

Biz, your answers all make perfect sense, IF religion is not ultimate truth. However, if there really is one true and living God--one who intervenes in his creation, and holds us accountable--then, that is a God worth dying for, staying true to, even sacrificing family for. I have no desire for maytrdom, or even incovenience, but, if we have the truth, and neglect it or disassociate ourselves from it, what can we say for ourselves?

[Guest bizabra]

<div class='quotemain'>

The stupid things people do for their religious "convictions" just makes me feel sick. The families destroyed and the lives ruined due to religion are legion and just plain wrong.

Biz, your answers all make perfect sense, IF religion is not ultimate truth. However, if there really is one true and living God--one who intervenes in his creation, and holds us accountable--then, that is a God worth dying for, staying true to, even sacrificing family for. I have no desire for maytrdom, or even incovenience, but, if we have the truth, and neglect it or disassociate ourselves from it, what can we say for ourselves?

BIZ: It's a pretty big IF. However, IF there IS no god, then dying for or sacrificing family for the idea of god is senseless. Why should anyone make the ultimate sacrifice for something that might just be the collective figment of humanities imagination? I would prefer to stay alive and/or preserve my family instead. I KNOW I am alive and I KNOW and love my family. They are real. I would not make the ultimate sacrifice for something on FAITH alone.

[prisonchaplain]

Biz, it works both ways. Why indeed would so many have suffered martyrdom, if the Christian story were largely fictitious? Your reasoning is compelling--and yet so many have endured death, without recanting. Why?

And "faith alone" is a meaningless concept. Adherents of religion come to their faith through a combination of upbringing, education, searching, and yes, spiritual experience, Faith intermingles with fact, experience and recommendation.

BTW, it takes a certain kind of faith to believe there is no personal god, as well.

[Guest bizabra]

I don't know why others have died for their beliefs. I honestly don't know why anyone would.

I disagree that it takes any kind of faith at all to NOT belief in god.

Do YOU have a "certain kind of faith" that there isn't an invisible purple monster living in my garage? Would you disbelieve in it even if I was willing to die for it? Even if I had a sincere "faith" and belief in it? Or would you believe I was mentally ill or hallucinating?

See, folks who DO believe in god just can't seem to grasp that others don't.

However, if you do not believe in OTHER religions god(s) such as Vishnu, Thor, etc. then you would be atheistic about those gods. Or do you believe in them ALL?