The next logical step

[Guest MormonGator]

9 minutes ago, Tyme said:

Do you guys think that the church's position on same-sex issues will stop the rough stone from rolling?

It's not going to help, but it's not going to hurt as much as you think it will. 

10 minutes ago, Tyme said:

That includes a good percentage of church youth.

Right, but I'm very skeptical that people are going to leave the church strictly based on the gay issue. 

[anatess2]

10 minutes ago, Tyme said:

Do you guys think that the church's position on same-sex issues will stop the rough stone from rolling? My generation mostly supports gays unconditionally. The next generation is even more fervent in support of gays. That includes a good percentage of church youth.

The LDS Church does not change its doctrine "by popular demand".  If it did, we'd all be drinking coffee with our morning paper and a beer with our dinner.

[Vort]

7 minutes ago, Tyme said:

Do you guys think that the church's position on same-sex issues will stop the rough stone from rolling? My generation mostly supports gays unconditionally. The next generation is even more fervent in support of gays. That includes a good percentage of church youth.

And therefore...what? God will change his mind about homosexuality and decide it's okay after all? Because his children have decided it's okay?

I think what you are really saying is that religion (or at least our religion) is a sham. There is no "God", or if there is, he/she/it doesn't care about homosexuality being "wrong" or "filthy". It's all just a cynical beauty pageant, not divine word at all. And the beauty pageant judges are all voting your way. So, in effect, God is on your side, because the rising generation sees things as you see them, and they're gonna win. Or at least, you think they will, so that proves that homosexual activity is okay.

The cynical, fatalistic hypocrisy is truly breathtaking. Tyme, come out from Babylon. Put off your foolishness and your filth. Do the right thing, even when it's hard and unpopular. Stand in holy places. Be ye clean that bear the vessels of the Lord.

[Guest MormonGator]

2 minutes ago, Vort said:

And therefore...what? God will change his mind about homosexuality and decide it's okay after all? Because his children have decided it's okay?

I think what you are really saying is that religion (or at least our religion) is a sham. There is no "God", or if there is, he/she/it doesn't care about homosexuality being "wrong" or "filthy". It's all just a cynical beauty pageant, not divine word at all. And the beauty pageant judges are all voting your way. So, in effect, God is on your side, because the rising generation sees things as you see them, and they're gonna win. Or at least, you think they will, so that proves that homosexual activity is okay.

The cynical, fatalistic hypocrisy is truly breathtaking. Tyme, come out from Babylon. Put off your foolishness and your filth. Do the right thing, even when it's hard and unpopular. Stand in holy places. Be ye clean that bear the vessels of the Lord.

I got the impression that he asked if the churches position will effect growth rates, not if it will change it's teachings. 

[Tyme]

Just now, MormonGator said:

I got the impression that he asked if the churches position will effect growth rates, not if it will change it's teachings. 

That's exactly what I was getting at.

I don't think the church changes based on popular demand. The church changes according to God's will. His will has been the same yesterday, today and fore ever. Those changes are however predicated on the willingness of members to accept his will. He's not going to hinder the church when the members aren't ready for it. For surely, his ways are higher than our ways. He will reveal his will here a little and there a little, line upon line, precept upon precept.  It's just that now over 50% of youth in the church accept gay marriage. That means the spirit is acting in their lives. Unless off course you want to deny they have the spirit with them. Something big is brewing with the youth of the church. Similar to how opinion changed with the black priesthood ban. When the members were ready for it then it was revealed to the prophet.  I do believe that when the members are ready LGBT will be allowed full fellowship in the church.

[boxer]

19 minutes ago, Tyme said:

That's exactly what I was getting at.

I don't think the church changes based on popular demand. The church changes according to God's will. His will has been the same yesterday, today and fore ever. Those changes are however predicated on the willingness of members to accept his will. He's not going to hinder the church when the members aren't ready for it. For surely, his ways are higher than our ways. He will reveal his will here a little and there a little, line upon line, precept upon precept.  It's just that now over 50% of youth in the church accept gay marriage. That means the spirit is acting in their lives. Unless off course you want to deny they have the spirit with them. Something big is brewing with the youth of the church. Similar to how opinion changed with the black priesthood ban. When the members were ready for it then it was revealed to the prophet.  I do believe that when the members are ready LGBT will be allowed full fellowship in the church.

You still have not answered my question. I'm waiting....

In the meantime, you do make some interesting points. First of why would you make the claim that the rising generation has more of the Spirit? What evidence is there of their great spirituality? Do they read God's word, are they scriptorians? How often do they pray? Do they want more Church or less Church? Are they more committed to sacrifice all for God? Are they more or less vulgar then previous generations?How often to they talk think about desire look at sex? If they are more righteous then why is it that do many have problems with porn, which directly goes against Christ's teachings. The scriptures tell us that signs and miracles will follow the righteous. Where are their miracles?

You still have not answered the fundamental question WHICH spirit are you listening to? Just as much as there is the Spirit of God there is a spirit of the devil who can appear as an angel of Light.

Finally, you hypothesis that the rising generation is more righteous does not in any way follow the pattern of the scriptures, which is there is a grand restoration and then 200 years later God's chosen people fall into wickedness rebellion and require a correction.

Edited November 18, 2018 by boxer

[boxer]

Oh and don't worry you might get your wish many bishops now allow homosexuals to date and still go to the temple.

I wouldn't cheer that though it just means we are ripening in inquity.

[Tyme]

2 minutes ago, boxer said:

Oh and don't worry you might get your wish many bishops now allow homosexuals to date and still go to the temple.

I wouldn't cheer that though it just means we are ripening in inquity.

The problem is that most of you are viewing this as a zero sum game. I would cheer for joy if gays were allowed in the Temple. The reason wouldn't be because I want to win some silly forum argument. Thinking like that just further entrenches people. The LGBT issue is very deep, personal and if I say so spiritual. That's why it is so difficult to change a person's mind despite the facts of the situation.

I never claimed the youth have the spirit more than anybody else. Are you getting at that older generations have the spirit more? It really is a case-by-case situation and not really knowable.

I'm listening to the spirit of God. You shall know by how good the works are. Having gays in the Temple is a good work and spiritually clean.

[SpiritDragon]

33 minutes ago, Tyme said:

The problem is that most of you are viewing this as a zero sum game. I would cheer for joy if gays were allowed in the Temple. The reason wouldn't be because I want to win some silly forum argument. Thinking like that just further entrenches people. The LGBT issue is very deep, personal and if I say so spiritual. That's why it is so difficult to change a person's mind despite the facts of the situation.

I never claimed the youth have the spirit more than anybody else. Are you getting at that older generations have the spirit more? It really is a case-by-case situation and not really knowable.

I'm listening to the spirit of God. You shall know by how good the works are. Having gays in the Temple is a good work and spiritually clean.

There is nothing wrong with someone with same sex attraction going to the temple so long as they are living righteously (not acting out on homosexual behaviours)

You are correct that it's hard to change people's minds, especially when they've deluded themselves into believing that sin is beautiful and acceptable to God and those championing it have the spirit [of god] with them.

I would really like you to answer why the sin of homosexuality should be given special status to be over-ruled compared to any other sin. Why should we accept because some people struggle with this we need to change God's commandments around it, but you don't seem to be saying that those who would choose to steal or murder because they have a weakness towards it should be allowed to do so. Perhaps you will say because these are harmful to other people and homosexuality is done between consenting adults.

The thing is no one truly lives in a bubble and decisions do have trickle down effects, not to mention being disqualified from the blessing of living righteously is pretty serious harm being done to themselves and their partner(s). At the very least by changing God's position on homosexuality, it seems to me, that one would likewise need to change position on pornography as it supposedly doesn't hurt anyone else either. Garbage!

Even if no one else knows about it, it effects how the user thinks and interacts with others and quite importantly affects self-esteem and confidence to take part in the Lord's work. Just like people argue that the bible doesn't use the word homosexual in condemnation, the bible doesn't use the word pornography either, but the saviour taught about lustful thoughts being akin to committing adultery. Here we get a clear picture of where pornography fits in even without a specific teaching against it (teaching using the exact word). We have numerous passages in the bible that give as much or more reason to believe homosexuality has always been and will always be a sin.

You may not have said that the rising generation is more spiritual than others, but it was certainly implied by stating that around half of youth are apparently in favour of homosexual marriage   which means the spirit is acting in their lives. It strongly suggests that you think those who favour homosexuality have the spirit while others do not. This is simply not so.

Edited November 18, 2018 by SpiritDragon

[Tyme]

32 minutes ago, SpiritDragon said:

There is nothing wrong with someone with same sex attraction going to the temple so long as they are living righteously (not acting out on homosexual behaviours)

You are correct that it's hard to change people's minds, especially when they've deluded themselves into believing that sin is beautiful and acceptable to God and those championing it have the spirit [of god] with them.

I would really like you to answer why the sin of homosexuality should be given special status to be over-ruled compared to any other sin. Why should we accept because some people struggle with this we need to change God's commandments around it, but you don't seem to be saying that those who would choose to steal or murder because they have a weakness towards it should be allowed to do so. Perhaps you will say because these are harmful to other people and homosexuality is done between consenting adults.

The thing is no one truly lives in a bubble and decisions do have trickle down effects, not to mention being disqualified from the blessing of living righteously is pretty serious harm being done to themselves and their partner(s). At the very least by changing God's position on homosexuality, it seems to me, that one would likewise need to change position on pornography as it supposedly doesn't hurt anyone else either. Garbage!

Even if no one else knows about it, it effects how the user thinks and interacts with others and quite importantly affects self-esteem and confidence to take part in the Lord's work. Just like people argue that the bible doesn't use the word homosexual in condemnation, the bible doesn't use the word pornography either, but the saviour taught about lustful thoughts being akin to committing adultery. Here we get a clear picture of where pornography fits in even without a specific teaching against it (teaching using the exact word). We have numerous passages in the bible that give as much or more reason to believe homosexuality has always been and will always be a sin.

You may not have said that the rising generation is more spiritual than others, but it was certainly implied by stating that around half of youth are apparently in favour of homosexual marriage   which means the spirit is acting in their lives. It strongly suggests that you think those who favour homosexuality have the spirit while others do not. This is simply not so.

So you’re implying the youth don’t have the spirit?

[boxer]

44 minutes ago, Tyme said:

So you’re implying the youth don’t have the spirit?

Many of them; absolutely not. They are deceived into thinking getting up in F&T and becoming teary-eyed or becoming emotional is the spirit.

1 hour ago, Tyme said:

I'm listening to the spirit of God. You shall know by how good the works are.

You are very confident today you are listening to the Spirit of God, yet just yesterday you claimed you didn't know, only that you knew you felt something deep in your heart.  What changed?  Why did you not know yesterday but today you do know?

By their works ye shall know them. Yes that is a very good scripture.  Please share what you are studying in your personal scripture reading?  When was the last time you have a meaningful prayer to God? Do you thank Him for the good that happens and the bad that happens in your life?  .

You are judging "works" based off of a very temporary aspect.  If I give a child a chocolate candy bar, they will surely feel happy and will "love" me for it. If I tell a child, "no you can not have a chocolate bar right now" they will say "you are mean".  A child has no concept of time or long-term best interest.  A child does not comprehend that a chocolate candy bar before dinner will spoil their appetite.  A child does not understand that eating a candy-bar every day will destroy their health.  A child does not understand or comprehend any of that. 

From a child's perspective, a parent who does not allow them to eat a candy-bar for dinner is "mean", but a parent who does allow them is "nice".  For a child, a parent who allows them to have a candy-bar for dinner is showing forth "good works". For a child, a parent doesn't allow them to have a candy-bar is showing forth "bad works".

And that is what Satan does, he is the great deceiver, he deceives one into believing what is bad is good and what is good is bad.  Satan does not have the long-term good of man in heart, he is only concerned about the here and now.  Like a child, Satan cannot look past the front of his nose to understand the greater good.  And he convinces others to not look past the front of their nose.  Consequently many are blinded today to call good for evil and evil for good.  Just like a child.

I am very confident in my position, I'm very confident that homosexuality is not of God, in any form.  The scriptures back me up, my experience backs it up and wisdom backs it up. We are told in the last days that many will be confused, deceived call good/evil and evil/good. The scriptures describe our days exactly.

[SpiritDragon]

1 hour ago, Tyme said:

So you’re implying the youth don’t have the spirit?

No. I'm directly stating that those who believe they can counsel God on what should and shouldn't be sin, instead of listening to His counsel aren't following the spirit of God. There was someone else in the pre-existence who thought he knew better than Heavenly Father... could it be him that so many are listening to?

Besides this, it is ridiculous to suggest that because 50% of youth have one view and 50% the other that all of a sudden we can lump them all into one category and state that they do or do not have the spirit to be with them. I will say that I firmly believe that anyone who believes homosexuality is pure and righteous has been deceived. They may still have the spirit with them in other areas of their life, but they have not been guided by the spirit of God to that particular conclusion.

[Grunt]

6 hours ago, Tyme said:

That's exactly what I was getting at.

I don't think the church changes based on popular demand. The church changes according to God's will. His will has been the same yesterday, today and fore ever. Those changes are however predicated on the willingness of members to accept his will. He's not going to hinder the church when the members aren't ready for it. For surely, his ways are higher than our ways. He will reveal his will here a little and there a little, line upon line, precept upon precept.  It's just that now over 50% of youth in the church accept gay marriage. That means the spirit is acting in their lives. Unless off course you want to deny they have the spirit with them. Something big is brewing with the youth of the church. Similar to how opinion changed with the black priesthood ban. When the members were ready for it then it was revealed to the prophet.  I do believe that when the members are ready LGBT will be allowed full fellowship in the church.

Huh?  Here are a few factual tidbits for you:

Gender is eternal.

Marriage is between a man and a woman.

Sex outside of marriage is in violation of the Law of Chastity.

ANY of those things can keep you from being baptized or jeopardize your membership in the Church.

These aren't a whim.  They aren't just hanging out until the Church is ready to accept them.  It's been revealed that these things are true.  It's nothing like the inability of blacks to receive the priesthood.

Now some of us, while accepting this, may believe the State shouldn't take away your agency through legislation.  Some of us may believe you should be free to sin as you want.  I read somewhere that it is sinful to encourage or cause doubt in testimony or apostasy in others.  I'll look for that later.  

However, if you believe the Church teachings are false and same-sex relationships are acceptable to Heavenly Father, then you are on the wrong path, period.  If you try to convince others that this is true or even offer support of shared beliefs, then I believe this to be sinful and deserving of repentance.  

[Vort]

7 hours ago, Tyme said:

It's just that now over 50% of youth in the church accept gay marriage. That means the spirit is acting in their lives. Unless off course you want to deny they have the spirit with them.

I absolutely deny it. If that is the "spirit" operating on our youth, then there is nothing holy about it. It is an evil, malignant spirit telling our youth that perversion is sacred and filth is cleanness.

[Vort]

7 hours ago, Tyme said:

It's just that now over 50% of youth in the church accept gay marriage. That means the spirit is acting in their lives. Unless off course you want to deny they have the spirit with them.

I absolutely deny it. If that is the "spirit" operating on our youth, then there is nothing holy about it. It is an evil, malignant spirit telling our youth that perversion is sacred and filth is cleanness.

7 hours ago, Tyme said:

Similar to how opinion changed with the black priesthood ban. When the members were ready for it then it was revealed to the prophet.  I do believe that when the members are ready LGBT will be allowed full fellowship in the church.

I'm mildly surprised, but not stunned, that you know nothing about the topic you're addressing. There was no Churchwide opinion that "changed". Church members were not agitating for blacks to receive the Priesthood and temple blessings. If you think they were, that shows how little you understand what was going on. The Church had, by and large, weathered the worst of the social disdain directed against them.

And, of course, there's the little fact that you enjoy overlooking, that from the earliest times it had been taught that eventually, all peoples would receive the blessings of being allowed to hold the Priesthood, without respect to race, culture, or nationality. The 1978 revelation was surprising, but not at all unexpected in the long view. We all knew it was coming, just not then. There has never been a time in recorded history when the kingdom of God has encouraged or promised that homosexual intimacy would one day be accepted. That's simply false.

Edited November 18, 2018 by Vort

[Vort]

6 hours ago, Tyme said:

Having gays in the Temple is a good work and spiritually clean.

This really says it all. The discussion is over. We have established the boundaries that Tyme is willing to accept, and those boundaries do not encompass the truths of God as taught by his prophets.

[Guest MormonGator]

@Vort, I get the impression you are on the fence about gay marriage. 

[Grunt]

4 minutes ago, MormonGator said:

@Vort, I get the impression you are on the fence about gay marriage. 

Nobody who follows the Prophets and Heavenly Father is on the fence about gay marriage.

[Guest MormonGator]

7 minutes ago, Grunt said:

Nobody who follows the Prophets and Heavenly Father is on the fence about gay marriage.

Oh I know @Grunt, you need to be radically for it. 
 

Edited November 18, 2018 by MormonGator

[boxer]

15 minutes ago, Vort said:

This really says it all. The discussion is over. We have established the boundaries that Tyme is willing to accept, and those boundaries do not encompass the truths of God as taught by his prophets.

I agree, unfortunately I do believe Tyme is correct that more and more members are sharing his/her opinion on the matter.

http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2015/12/18/most-u-s-christian-groups-grow-more-accepting-of-homosexuality/

24% in 2007 to 36% in 2014 . . .it's probably in the 40s if not approaching 50% 4 years later.  Note: this question isn't asking about homosexual marriage, it's asking about whether homosexuality should be accepted (i.e. it's not sinful).

More digging into the data for those who are interested:

http://www.pewforum.org/religious-landscape-study/religious-tradition/mormon/views-about-homosexuality/

Tyme may be wrong theologically, but culturally it's tough to make the claim that he/she is wrong.

Edited November 18, 2018 by boxer

[Guest]

2 minutes ago, boxer said:

I agree, unfortunately I do believe Tyme is correct that more and more members are sharing his/her opinion on the matter.

http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2015/12/18/most-u-s-christian-groups-grow-more-accepting-of-homosexuality/

24% in 2007 to 36% in 2014 . . .it's probably in the 40s if not approaching 50% 4 year's later.  Note: this question isn't asking about homosexual marriage, it's asking about whether homosexuality should be accepted (i.e. it's not sinful).

"Accepted by society" is quite different than "Believe that the Lord accepts it".

Many here find no problem with people having same sex attraction.  And many here are ok with it being legal.  But to believe that gay marriages being solemnized in the temple is in any way going to be acceptable to the Lord is borderline apostasy.  To declare and preach that the Spirit wills it so IS apostasy.

[Guest MormonGator]

When speaking to the missionaries this subject comes up from time to time. Missionaries tend to open up to LG and I, and just as an informal, non scientific survey I think the majority of them that I've spoken to are agnostic/ more sympathetic to homosexual rights than the previous generations before them. 

[Tyme]

In 20-40 years that rate will be 90-100%. Then after older folks die off you'll be looking at the youth growing up carrying that acceptance with them. That leaves the church with only four options. It bleeds out, America fails, becomes a foreign church or it embraces LGBTQ. I hope that the church embraces LGBTQ. After all the spirit will be witnessing to the members that it is accepted and not something to abhor.

[Guest]

 

[Grunt]

18 minutes ago, Tyme said:

In 20-40 years that rate will be 90-100%. Then after older folks die off you'll be looking at the youth growing up carrying that acceptance with them. That leaves the church with only four options. It bleeds out, America fails, becomes a foreign church or it embraces LGBTQ. I hope that the church embraces LGBTQ. After all the spirit will be witnessing to the members that it is accepted and not something to abhor.

You're confusing love and acceptance with belief that Heavenly Father condones it.   I can love and accept homosexuals.  I can even believe they have the right to a State marriage.  That doesn't mean I don't recognize their behavior is sinful and hope they can overcome it for eternal life and exaltation.