We Are Responsible For Our Own Learning

[The Folk Prophet]

15 minutes ago, wenglund said:

Your question is tangential to the thread topic

Actually, it's probably not. We are responsible for our own learning. The objective of learning is conversion. Conversion is equivalent to being born again. We are responsible for our own being born again.

[Rob Osborn]

8 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said:

Okay.

Then the answer to your question is probably Alma 31:5.

I will agree with that. I was thinking more along these lines-

3 Now they were desirous that salvation should be declared to every creature, for they could not bear that any human soul should perish; yea, even the very thoughts that any soul should endure endless torment did cause them to quake and tremble. (Mosiah 28:3).

Do we go out into the world with this same drive? No, not generally. Why? Is it that maybe we don't really understand the ramifications of our actions? I experienced in some degree the feelings they experienced in being cast off. Suffered many night terror events over the years. It motivated me to understand the gospel and to look out into the world and ask the right question- at what point does this individual become converted and born again?. Knowing the gospel, in all of it's details, helps us to have a more clear picture of the plan of salvation and it's importance. I too often feel like we as LDS have this laxadasical approach to understanding and sharing with others the gospel of Jesus Christ. Yes it's true we are converted through our actions. But without knowledge and understandings we may not be applying it for the greatest good. We need to come to the conclusion that all, not just some elite group, need to understand the gospel like Alma and the Son's of Mosiah with the same fear of failure to repent and do what's right.

[wenglund]

3 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said:

Actually, it's probably not. We are responsible for our own learning. The objective of learning is conversion. Conversion is equivalent to being born again. We are responsible for our own being born again.

I can see what you are saying. I was just trying to avoid a fruitless interaction with Rob on the meaning of "Born Again." But, it is your thread...:)

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[The Folk Prophet]

4 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

Is it that maybe we don't really understand the ramifications of our actions?

I dare bet that "we", by and large, full well know the ramifications of our actions.

5 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

Knowing the gospel, in all of it's details, helps us to have a more clear picture of the plan of salvation and it's importance.

It can help. Yes. Requisite to salvation? I think not.

6 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

I too often feel like we as LDS have this laxadasical approach to understanding and sharing with others the gospel of Jesus Christ.

Maybe. That is irrelevant to the "how" or the "what's important" of learning though.

10 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

But without knowledge and understandings we may not be applying it for the greatest good.

"May not" is a bit flimsy. Can you apply this idea to your previous two examples (Why Christ was baptized and the meaning of spiritual death)?

19 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

We need to come to the conclusion that all, not just some elite group, need to understand the gospel

I challenge you to find a single person who believes that only an elite group needs to understand the core principles of the gospel. What you seem to be doing is taking complex knowledge that isn't important to have in mortality and grouping it in with the core, important things we actually need to understand.

I accept that there is value to understanding these more complex things. I accept that the more knowledge we gain here the less we'll have to learn after mortality. What I reject is that a person's ability to mentally understand complex theological and philosophical ideas has any bearing on their standing with God. What matters is humility, faith, obedience, and charity. These concepts are not complex. They are simple. You either give yourself to God -- fully -- or you do not. The simplest mind can do this and the greatest mind can do this, equal in aptitude. God respects faithful humility and strict obedience, not powerful intellectualizing and astute philosophizing.

And, incidentally, I'm still waiting on the answer to my questions.

[SpiritDragon]

5 hours ago, Rob Osborn said:

I taught the basic gospel principles class for a number of years not to long ago and we had mostly well knowledgeable long time members in the class. I was surprised how different the responses were to very simple questions and in a lot of cases disagreement on basic principles- very basic misunderstandings of key words and principles. It appeared that generally everyone knew the seminary answer but when pressed they just didn't understand what they were saying. I ended up going through a massive internal analysis of this phenomenon myself and realized that I too didn't have correct understanding. Needless to say I have been in the basic gospel principles class now, whenever it is held, for the better part of two decades and I have restructured within myself a system of learning to find truth. Thumbing through the new manual for the upcoming year and my joy is bubbling over. Many of the same techniques are being introduced. We are basically going back to square one because we need to better understand how truth is gained and how understanding things is Paramount. There is no doubt in my mind that our hearts and minds are being trained and prepared to understand the purity and simpleness of Christ's doctrine, of the which we are barely scratching the surface. I do see a doctrinally shift ahead. 

Can you elaborate on the techniques that the new manual and you have in common? I haven't yet found anything that is particularly new and exciting. It seems to me that the manual has scriptures to read that instruct on certain principles. It asks some questions to help us think about what is being taught, something that any inquisitive person does while studying anyway. I think for me the biggest value will be a hopefully improved sense of accountability to be studying material together as a cohort and discussing it as well as having a guide to help keep me thinking.

My first time through the scriptures I was very interested to know what I would discover, subsequent re-readings have left me feeling like sometimes I'm not going to get anything new out of it and my interest wanes. However, the purpose isn't my entertainment value or curiosity anyway, it just makes it easier for me when I'm more intrigued. For the same reason, I rarely watch a movie twice and if I do it's usually been a few years since the last watching.

I'm looking forward to seeing how much more I can learn by having a church-sponsored program of study at home instead of trying to get my family on board with my own ideas of trying to continue personal and companion/family study similar to when I was a missionary. I find that with greater repetition it is helpful to get other perspectives that elucidate points in ways I wouldn't have considered. This is where I think family and sunday school conversations will be helpful. All that being said, I don't want to be misinterpreted as thinking that intellectual understanding is more important than the conversion of desire within the heart. Sometimes it is this very thing that makes me excited to dig into the scriptures even though I have read through the New Testament several times, the Book of Mormon dozens and the other standard works completely at least once, but more often than not just when searching out particular topics. 

Edited December 31, 2018 by SpiritDragon
break up text block for ease of reading

[Traveler]

3 hours ago, The Folk Prophet said:

Does anyone really believe that knowing where Jesus performed any particular miracle is of any real importance?

Hmmmmm - why do you think Jesus performed over 80% of his miracles is one unique place that was a rather small obscure Jewish village?  If you do not care - obviously the reason will never matter to you.

If anyone has some ideas or thoughts to share - I would be most happy to consider and examine your thinking and exchange thoughts.

 

The Traveler

[The Folk Prophet]

2 minutes ago, Traveler said:

Hmmmmm - why do you think Jesus performed over 80% of his miracles is one unique place that was a rather small obscure Jewish village?  If you do not care - obviously the reason will never matter to you.

Whether it matters to me is irrelevant. Whether it matters to God that I know this or not is relevant.

[The Folk Prophet]

16 minutes ago, SpiritDragon said:

Can you elaborate on the techniques that the new manual and you have in common? I haven't yet found anything that is particularly new and exciting. It seems to me that the manual has scriptures to read that instruct on certain principles. It asks some questions to help us think about what is being taught, something that any inquisitive person does while studying anyway. I think for me the biggest value will be a hopefully improved sense of accountability to be studying material together as a cohort and discussing it as well as having a guide to help keep me thinking.

My first time through the scriptures I was very interested to know what I would discover, subsequent re-readings have left me feeling like sometimes I'm not going to get anything new out of it and my interest wanes. However, the purpose isn't my entertainment value or curiosity anyway, it just makes it easier for me when I'm more intrigued. For the same reason, I rarely watch a movie twice and if I do it's usually been a few years since the last watching.

I'm looking forward to seeing how much more I can learn by having a church-sponsored program of study at home instead of trying to get my family on board with my own ideas of trying to continue personal and companion/family study similar to when I was a missionary. I find that with greater repetition it is helpful to get other perspectives that elucidate points in ways I wouldn't have considered. This is where I think family and sunday school conversations will be helpful. All that being said, I don't want to be misinterpreted as thinking that intellectual understanding is more important than the conversion of desire within the heart. Sometimes it is this very thing that makes me excited to dig into the scriptures even though I have read through the New Testament several times, the Book of Mormon dozens and the other standard works completely at least once, but more often than not just when searching out particular topics. 

I'm going to just quote the Conversion Is Our Goal page of the manual:

The aim of all gospel learning and teaching is to deepen our conversion and help us become more like Jesus Christ. For this reason, when we study the gospel, we’re not just looking for new information; we want to become a “new creature” (see 2 Corinthians 5:17). This means relying on Christ to change our hearts, our views, our actions, and our very natures.

But the kind of gospel learning that strengthens our faith and leads to the miraculous change of conversion doesn’t happen all at once. It extends beyond a classroom into an individual’s heart and home. It requires consistent, daily efforts to understand and live the gospel. True conversion requires the influence of the Holy Ghost.

The Holy Ghost guides us to the truth and bears witness of that truth (see John 16:13). He enlightens our minds, quickens our understanding, and touches our hearts with revelation from God, the source of all truth. The Holy Ghost purifies our hearts. He inspires in us a desire to live by truth, and He whispers to us ways to do this. Truly, “the Holy Ghost . . . shall teach [us] all things” (John 14:26).

For these reasons, in our efforts to live, learn, and teach the gospel, we should first and foremost seek the companionship of the Spirit. This goal should govern our choices and guide our thoughts and actions. We should seek after whatever invites the influence of the Spirit and reject whatever drives that influence away—for we know that if we can be worthy of the presence of the Holy Ghost, we can also be worthy to live in the presence of Heavenly Father and His Son, Jesus Christ.

[Rob Osborn]

20 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said:

I dare bet that "we", by and large, full well know the ramifications of our actions.

It can help. Yes. Requisite to salvation? I think not.

Maybe. That is irrelevant to the "how" or the "what's important" of learning though.

"May not" is a bit flimsy. Can you apply this idea to your previous two examples (Why Christ was baptized and the meaning of spiritual death)?

I challenge you to find a single person who believes that only an elite group needs to understand the core principles of the gospel. What you seem to be doing is taking complex knowledge that isn't important to have in mortality and grouping it in with the core, important things we actually need to understand.

I accept that there is value to understanding these more complex things. I accept that the more knowledge we gain here the less we'll have to learn after mortality. What I reject is that a person's ability to mentally understand complex theological and philosophical ideas has any bearing on their standing with God. What matters is humility, faith, obedience, and charity. These concepts are not complex. They are simple. You either give yourself to God -- fully -- or you do not. The simplest mind can do this and the greatest mind can do this, equal in aptitude. God respects faithful humility and strict obedience, not powerful intellectualizing and astute philosophizing.

And, incidentally, I'm still waiting on the answer to my questions.

Alma and the Son's of Mosiah before their conversion in a large part kind of represent our approach we have now days. Given that we aren't trying to destroy the church like they were, we do indeed have a lackluster desire to want to learn, teach, exhort, and live the gospel above all other worldly desires. So what changed for them? They saw the direct results of what happens to those who fail to be converted to the gospel. It was a mighty change. In that process they began to hunger for truth, with real intent, putting forth a great desire to know.

The boat we are in is we are complacent in our understanding, we don't really understand what "eternal torment" is, we don't study and pray to know these things for ourselves. We blindly accept many teachings like a test in school if we just give the right answers on Sunday. 

I asked Wade a specific off the top of your head question. He didn't reply because either he was not confident in the answer or thought it was too comical to address. The whole point is that a serious knowledgeable person of the gospel- a true disciple knows the answer inside and out and is ready and willing to appease. 

We spend all too much time debating what we think the gospel is without truly knowing what it really is.

I find it interesting how many times I will be told I am wrong on the basic principles of the gospel (gospel according to Rob) when most times I am directly referencing the Savior from scripture. So, like the pre born again Son's of Mosiah, I am left to believe we aren't converted- we don't really know and live the gospel of Jesus Christ.

It is upon us to understand the gospel, to know all the insurance and outs. To know the details, how they apply. Not understanding something as simple as baptism being the ordinance where in we enter into a covenant relationship with our Heavenly Father so that we are not cast aside into outer darkness can be Paramount to our conversion and others around us whom we influence.

[Traveler]

2 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said:

Whether it matters to me is irrelevant. Whether it matters to God that I know this or not is relevant.

I am quite sure it was relevant to the few Jews living in a community so near a Roman military outpost - Perhaps even the Roman military commander played a part.  But for those that do not care and do not care to seek, ask and knock - the door will never be opened.

 

The Traveler

 

[The Folk Prophet]

7 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

He didn't reply because either he was not confident in the answer or thought it was too comical to address.

I believe he didn't reply because he can't stand dealing with what he sees as an arrogant, holier-than-thou, I'm-smarter-than-you, condescending world-view.

9 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

 a true disciple knows the answer inside and out and is ready and willing to appease.

I guess you're the only "true" disciple in the world.

12 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

So, like the pre born again Son's of Mosiah, I am left to believe we aren't converted- we don't really know and live the gospel of Jesus Christ.

So sad for everyone but you.

[The Folk Prophet]

14 minutes ago, Traveler said:

I am quite sure it was relevant to the few Jews living in a community so near a Roman military outpost - Perhaps even the Roman military commander played a part.

Ok.

14 minutes ago, Traveler said:

But for those that do not care and do not care to seek, ask and knock - the door will never be opened.

Ok.

[SpiritDragon]

10 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said:

I'm going to just quote the Conversion Is Our Goal page of the manual:

The aim of all gospel learning and teaching is to deepen our conversion and help us become more like Jesus Christ. For this reason, when we study the gospel, we’re not just looking for new information; we want to become a “new creature” (see 2 Corinthians 5:17). This means relying on Christ to change our hearts, our views, our actions, and our very natures.

But the kind of gospel learning that strengthens our faith and leads to the miraculous change of conversion doesn’t happen all at once. It extends beyond a classroom into an individual’s heart and home. It requires consistent, daily efforts to understand and live the gospel. True conversion requires the influence of the Holy Ghost.

The Holy Ghost guides us to the truth and bears witness of that truth (see John 16:13). He enlightens our minds, quickens our understanding, and touches our hearts with revelation from God, the source of all truth. The Holy Ghost purifies our hearts. He inspires in us a desire to live by truth, and He whispers to us ways to do this. Truly, “the Holy Ghost . . . shall teach [us] all things” (John 14:26).

For these reasons, in our efforts to live, learn, and teach the gospel, we should first and foremost seek the companionship of the Spirit. This goal should govern our choices and guide our thoughts and actions. We should seek after whatever invites the influence of the Spirit and reject whatever drives that influence away—for we know that if we can be worthy of the presence of the Holy Ghost, we can also be worthy to live in the presence of Heavenly Father and His Son, Jesus Christ.

I'm not sure what to make of your reply. I asked @Rob Osborn a question and supplied some additional background information. As part of that I explained that I don't do the best with repetition of the same material, but understand that isn't the point. You respond with excellent material from the manual. The implication? I'm not sure. Perhaps, because you are intending to help correct me because of this particular statement?

36 minutes ago, SpiritDragon said:

My first time through the scriptures I was very interested to know what I would discover, subsequent re-readings have left me feeling like sometimes I'm not going to get anything new out of it and my interest wanes. However, the purpose isn't my entertainment value or curiosity anyway, it just makes it easier for me when I'm more intrigued. For the same reason, I rarely watch a movie twice and if I do it's usually been a few years since the last watching.

That is understandable and admirable. I put this information in to give context but not because I feel it is the goal. I had hoped that the following part of my comment would have clarified that:

39 minutes ago, SpiritDragon said:

All that being said, I don't want to be misinterpreted as thinking that intellectual understanding is more important than the conversion of desire within the heart. Sometimes it is this very thing that makes me excited to dig into the scriptures...

Please help me understand your reply better. What is the motive or point? 

[Rob Osborn]

14 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said:

I believe he didn't reply because he can't stand dealing with what he sees as an arrogant, holier-than-thou, I'm-smarter-than-you, condescending world-view.

I guess you're the only "true" disciple in the world.

So sad for everyone but you.

Im willing to engage but I dont care for condescending tones.

[The Folk Prophet]

22 minutes ago, SpiritDragon said:

I'm not sure what to make of your reply. I asked @Rob Osborn a question and supplied some additional background information. As part of that I explained that I don't do the best with repetition of the same material, but understand that isn't the point. You respond with excellent material from the manual. The implication? I'm not sure. Perhaps, because you are intending to help correct me because of this particular statement?

That is understandable and admirable. I put this information in to give context but not because I feel it is the goal. I had hoped that the following part of my comment would have clarified that:

Please help me understand your reply better. What is the motive or point? 

I think you got it. Though "correct" is too strong of a word. Just relative to the idea that you weren't gaining new information makes it hard for you to be interested. My thought was that gaining new information isn't primarily the objective. Finding and feeling the Spirit is. Just a response for consideration.

Edited December 31, 2018 by The Folk Prophet

[Rob Osborn]

57 minutes ago, SpiritDragon said:

Can you elaborate on the techniques that the new manual and you have in common? I haven't yet found anything that is particularly new and exciting. It seems to me that the manual has scriptures to read that instruct on certain principles. It asks some questions to help us think about what is being taught, something that any inquisitive person does while studying anyway. I think for me the biggest value will be a hopefully improved sense of accountability to be studying material together as a cohort and discussing it as well as having a guide to help keep me thinking.

My first time through the scriptures I was very interested to know what I would discover, subsequent re-readings have left me feeling like sometimes I'm not going to get anything new out of it and my interest wanes. However, the purpose isn't my entertainment value or curiosity anyway, it just makes it easier for me when I'm more intrigued. For the same reason, I rarely watch a movie twice and if I do it's usually been a few years since the last watching.

I'm looking forward to seeing how much more I can learn by having a church-sponsored program of study at home instead of trying to get my family on board with my own ideas of trying to continue personal and companion/family study similar to when I was a missionary. I find that with greater repetition it is helpful to get other perspectives that elucidate points in ways I wouldn't have considered. This is where I think family and sunday school conversations will be helpful. All that being said, I don't want to be misinterpreted as thinking that intellectual understanding is more important than the conversion of desire within the heart. Sometimes it is this very thing that makes me excited to dig into the scriptures even though I have read through the New Testament several times, the Book of Mormon dozens and the other standard works completely at least once, but more often than not just when searching out particular topics. 

I think your on track. I like to read slowly, ponder scriptures and ask simple logical questions. The manual seems to do this quite well. From there my mind explodes. I get all excited and start making flow charts, scripture groupings and applying the principles into the overlap of other topics and then tying it in all together. My favorite application I did was with Christs parable of the wheat and the tares. Finding out about who the wheat are, who the tares are, how it applies in latter day times with temples being the "garners", the wheat representing the harvest, of which isnt realized until a spouse is sealed to a mate in the temple. And from there how their names get written in the books in the temple where it is also written in heaven. It gets exciting for me because the overlap comes into play with realizing the Lord speaks in many different ways to say the same thing. Overlap here would be the sheep and the goats- the sherp being the wheat, the tares being the goats. Overlapped again- the sheep on the right hand representing priesthood, power and authority to save and uohold whereas the goats on the left having no master to save representing judgment, doom, desolation. Its all intertwined, it gets real fun when we arent hampered down with too much commentary and we explore on our own.

[The Folk Prophet]

15 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

I dont care for condescending tones.

Then we are of a like mind in that regard.

Edited December 31, 2018 by The Folk Prophet

[SpiritDragon]

2 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said:

I think you got it. Though "correct" is too strong of a word. Just relative to the idea that you weren't gaining new information makes it hard for you to be interested. My thought was that gaining new information isn't primarily the objective. Finding and feeling the Spirit is. Just a response for considerations.

I appreciate you looking out for me. It's a good reminder to use each scripture study session as an opportunity to seek the Lord and feel the spirit, not just an opportunity to increase knowledge.

[Rob Osborn]

6 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said:

Then we are of a like mind in that regard.

Do you want to discuss or not?

[wenglund]

1 hour ago, The Folk Prophet said:

I dare bet that "we", by and large, full well know the ramifications of our actions.

It can help. Yes. Requisite to salvation? I think not.

Maybe. That is irrelevant to the "how" or the "what's important" of learning though.

"May not" is a bit flimsy. Can you apply this idea to your previous two examples (Why Christ was baptized and the meaning of spiritual death)?

I challenge you to find a single person who believes that only an elite group needs to understand the core principles of the gospel. What you seem to be doing is taking complex knowledge that isn't important to have in mortality and grouping it in with the core, important things we actually need to understand.

I accept that there is value to understanding these more complex things. I accept that the more knowledge we gain here the less we'll have to learn after mortality. What I reject is that a person's ability to mentally understand complex theological and philosophical ideas has any bearing on their standing with God. What matters is humility, faith, obedience, and charity. These concepts are not complex. They are simple. You either give yourself to God -- fully -- or you do not. The simplest mind can do this and the greatest mind can do this, equal in aptitude. God respects faithful humility and strict obedience, not powerful intellectualizing and astute philosophizing.

And, incidentally, I'm still waiting on the answer to my questions.

...as witnessed by the belief that children who die before the age of accountability, and thus lack understanding of complex things, will be exalted

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[Rob Osborn]

7 minutes ago, wenglund said:

...as witnessed by the belief that children who die before the age of accountability, and thus lack understanding of complex things, will be exalted

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

And how does one propose to know how its possible that someone who lacks knowledge of exaltation will be exalted?

[wenglund]

2 hours ago, Rob Osborn said:

I asked Wade a specific off the top of your head question. He didn't reply because either he was not confident in the answer or thought it was too comical to address.

These are two incorrect assumptions which you could have avoided had you read and comprehended the correct reasons I simply and clearly and reasonably spelled out TWICE for not answering you on this thread.

I shan't get into the plausible psychological factors behind your mistake assumptions because I am feeling charitable on New Years Eve , and besides it would likely be tangential to the topic of this thread.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[Rob Osborn]

5 minutes ago, wenglund said:

These are two incorrect assumptions which you could have avoided had you read and comprehended the correct reasons I simply and clearly and reasonably spelled out TWICE for not answering you on this thread.

I shan't get into the plausible psychological factors behind your mistake assumptions because I am feeling charitable on New Years Eve , and besides it would likely be tangential to the topic of this thread.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Acknowledged. I may start a topic on the matter. Be interesting to see if you post.

[wenglund]

1 hour ago, Rob Osborn said:

And how does one propose to know how its possible that someone who lacks knowledge of exaltation will be exalted?

The possibility is obviously entailed in a basic CoJCoLDS understanding of the transcendent atonement , particularly as it relates to a basic grasp of the Plan of Eternal Progression.

But, given your protestant view of the gospel, I can see why the obvious might escape you.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[Rob Osborn]

9 minutes ago, wenglund said:

The possibility is obviously entailed in a basic CoJCoLDS understanding of the transcendent atonement , particularly as it relates to a basic grasp of the Plan of Eternal Progression.

But, given your protestant view of the gospel, I can see why the obvious might escape you.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Will they enter their exaltation as children?