We Are Responsible For Our Own Learning


The Folk Prophet
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4 minutes ago, wenglund said:

I suppose that may be true in your personal case (particularly given your Protestant view of the gospel), though I don't see it as applicable to the general church membership, who accept the gospel of Christ as conveyed by Chris't's chosen leaders, and are receptive to further light and knowledge.. For them, they understand well enough the doctrine, and now it is time for them to apply what they correctly understand.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Is this kind of a shot at me that I'm unable to receive further light and knowledge?

I ask that in light of certain spiritual knowledge I have received showing that God's plan to save his children is far beyond our understanding as a church general body.

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5 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

Is this kind of a shot at me that I'm unable to receive further light and knowledge?

I ask that in light of certain spiritual knowledge I have received showing that God's plan to save his children is far beyond our understanding as a church general body.

It isn't a "shot," but an acknowledgement of your admitted reticence to receive the  further light and knowledge that has come through the authorized channels of Christ's church, and this likely because you believe you have personally received revelations that not only conflict with what has been conveyed by chosen leaders of the church, and which are allegedly "far beyond" the understanding of the church and its leaders, but, based upon what you have said here and elsewhere,  are eerily reminiscent of Protestantism.

From a general CoJCoLDS perspective, then, what you consider as far advanced further light and knowledge, is retrograde pre restoration light and knowledge

To each their own.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

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On 12/31/2018 at 3:13 PM, SpiritDragon said:

I haven't yet found anything that is particularly new and exciting. It seems to me that the manual has scriptures to read that instruct on certain principles. It asks some questions to help us think about what is being taught, something that any inquisitive person does while studying anyway. I think for me the biggest value will be a hopefully improved sense of accountability to be studying material together as a cohort and discussing it as well as having a guide to help keep me thinking.

That's what was in my line of thinking when I looked over the new CFM manuals for next year, especially the one for Primary.  I've been teaching in this manner since I've started teaching in the Church.  Almost every Church manual I've used has said somewhere in the introductory materials something like "We've given you more information in each lesson than you could possibly cover in one class period.  Prayerfully read everything and ponder which points will best benefit your class members."  The undertone being: we're making this for the whole world, so we have to include more than you can use.  My lesson prep pattern, whether I was teaching RS, YSA Gospel Doctrine, YW, or Primary is to read the purpose of the lesson, then the scriptures/talks, then the lesson manual, and come up with one talking point/idea for every 5-10 minutes of class.  How I present those points changes based on source and audience.  I'm going to teach the OT to YSAs differently than I teach gospel principles to Sunbeams.

Personally, I struggle learning when I don't have an opportunity to share that knowledge.  It's almost as if learning it to help just myself isn't worth the effort, but if I'm learning it so I can help someone else get it, I'm all in.  This is why I am really glad that the manuals across all auxiliaries will follow the same schedule as the one for home use; I'm teaching Primary so I know that reading the CFM:INF has the potential to provide insights for my lessons using the CFM:Primary manual.

The quote by Elder Bednar and the first paragraph under the heading "I Need to Know the Truth for Myself" reminded me of this quote from Bruce R. McConkie's final conference address: The Purifying Power of Gethsemane.  Which, honestly, I think sums up the whole lesson for me. 

Quote

But if we are to have faith like Enoch and Elijah we must believe what they believed, know what they knew, and live as they lived.

(Fun fact: this line comes to my mind every time I hear "Confidence" by Sanctus real on the radio.)

 

Since the OP was about this week's lesson, I assume  it's not off topic to share how I'll be teaching this to my four year olds.  (Everything is an adaptation of the material in the manual.)  The CMF:P encourages teachers to use the same pattern for teaching: invite sharing, teach the doctrine, encourage learning at home.  My plan is to start every lesson/week by asking/inviting the children to share something they remember from the scriptures, either at church or at home.  (I actually had an Institute teacher that did this, and it was very effective, even if the insight or question shared by the student wasn't initially related to his prepared lesson.)  After this, I will introduce the idea that scriptures are a gift with some kind of activity (haven't pinned one down yet). I picked up some treasure boxes from the party favor aisle and will give each child one to decorate and take home and keep one for the class with the purpose to fill it with scriptures throughout the year.  Because the scriptures are a gift/treasure. 

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1 hour ago, seashmore said:

The undertone being: we're making this for the whole world, so we have to include more than you can use.

That's kind of a strange take away. Why can't it be that there's just a lot of material to include?

1 hour ago, seashmore said:

Since the OP was about this week's lesson, I assume  it's not off topic to share how I'll be teaching this to my four year olds.  (Everything is an adaptation of the material in the manual.)  The CMF:P encourages teachers to use the same pattern for teaching: invite sharing, teach the doctrine, encourage learning at home.  My plan is to start every lesson/week by asking/inviting the children to share something they remember from the scriptures, either at church or at home.  (I actually had an Institute teacher that did this, and it was very effective, even if the insight or question shared by the student wasn't initially related to his prepared lesson.)  After this, I will introduce the idea that scriptures are a gift with some kind of activity (haven't pinned one down yet). I picked up some treasure boxes from the party favor aisle and will give each child one to decorate and take home and keep one for the class with the purpose to fill it with scriptures throughout the year.  Because the scriptures are a gift/treasure. 

Perfectly on topic. Way more on topic than all the holier-than-thou pontificating.

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8 hours ago, Rob Osborn said:

In your analogy I think, from my own point of view, we arent really doctrine masters. We are like beginner skiers in the 19th century just starting to find out how e may be able to construct some kind of contraption to go over the snow. Perhaps we havent even invented the ski yet! This is how I see the doctrine in the church, where we are at, what we know and how it can be applied. I do however see a shift in "doing". But, I think this is the Lords way of getting us to truly learn what can be invented to go over the snow (doctrine).

Perhaps I see things differently - as much as I have traveled and regardless of where I go - I meet many good  members that stand so well against the cold winter winds and face such difficult courses with great faith and courage showing so little fear that I feel great comfort and hope in facing my own challenges.  Interestingly so many such great members of faith do so with little understanding of doctrine - especially compared to me that I am ashamed that I am not a better example.  I fear for the world but not so much for the Latter-day Saints.

 

The Traveler

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4 hours ago, wenglund said:

It isn't a "shot," but an acknowledgement of your admitted reticence to receive the  further light and knowledge that has come through the authorized channels of Christ's church, and this likely because you believe you have personally received revelations that not only conflict with what has been conveyed by chosen leaders of the church, and which are allegedly "far beyond" the understanding of the church and its leaders, but, based upon what you have said here and elsewhere,  are eerily reminiscent of Protestantism.

From a general CoJCoLDS perspective, then, what you consider as far advanced further light and knowledge, is retrograde pre restoration light and knowledge

To each their own.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

I don't know where people get the idea I get revelations that conflict with the prophets. 

We are responsible for our own learning. We have a lot of resources before us to gather from, far more than any other church on the face of the Earth. And whether we like it or not our scriptures testify of a very typical heaven/hell dichotomy. Call it Protestantism or whatever, the fact remains. 

I slowly put together all the pieces, a little from here a little from there from what's already been revealed and I slowly but steadily paint a picture of truth.

One of the principles of the gospel, an immovable pillar of truth are these verses-

26 But, behold, verily I say unto you, before the earth shall pass away, Michael, mine archangel, shall sound his trump, and then shall all the dead awake, for their graves shall be opened, and they shall come forth—yea, even all.
            27 And the righteous shall be gathered on my right hand unto eternal life; and the wicked on my left hand will I be ashamed to own before the Father;
            28 Wherefore I will say unto them—Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels.

I have had the witness of the Holy Ghost testify this is true, it cannot be changed! Any doctrine, for it to be true, has to fit within these scriptures. There are hundreds of scriptures nearly identical to these stating basically the exact same testimony of truth. It is a fundamental pillar of truth in Christ's doctrine. There are two outcomes- spoken of here- the righteous to be gathered on the right hand to receive eternal life or be found on the left hand of God to be cast with the devil and his angels into the everlasting fire. Call it Protestantism or whatever you will, but it is a fundamental and immovable truth of Christ's doctrine. Any and all further light and knowledge must fit within this truth. To state otherwise is to deny Christ and his very words that proceed from his lips.

Gathering information, further light and knowledge comes from a variety of sources. We can receive confirmation of truth in the temple, in our thoughts and, from scripture, from talks, from study, from visions and dreams, each other, etc. One of those bigger fragments is from the House of the Lord- His holy temple. What does the temple teach? The plan of salvation- Christ's saving gospel with all of the accompanying steps, ordinances and covenants necessary for us to return home.

As such it comes as no surprise to me that the very things I put together harmonize in the endowment. There we are taught the true meaning of the telestial and terrestrial kingdoms and how we progress through them in our journey towards perfection, where we overcome all things and are made spotless. And, as is logical, it is there we find that salvation comes in the end culminating on our entrance into the presence of God in the Celestial kingdom. Now, hearkenibg back to those verses I quoted from section 29, it supports perfectly that doctrine. 

The temple endowment is the most up to date "further light and knowledge" we have concerning the plan of salvation.

We are responsible for our own learning and understanding. And while the world seems stuck in the dark ages, I work these things out diligently. The pieces are already there, we just have to connect all the dots. It's a fact that our doctrines concerning the plan of salvation don't all agree with section 29. So, either section 29, and the other 200+ scripture references are wrong or our understanding is still in it's infancy and we aren't seeing the correct picture yet. Ironically, all we have to do is go to the temple, it spells it out so very clear. But will we see it? Not very easy. Let me ask you this, will you, or can you prove those verses in section 29 are false or misleading? If they are true, as I so testify, then please stop being critical of the Lord's dichotomy of heaven or hell.

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8 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said:

That's kind of a strange take away. Why can't it be that there's just a lot of material to include?

*shrug*  I see no problem with both being an accurate reason.  There's also a fair amount of scripture that doesn't get covered at all in GD manuals.

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Day 3: I need to know the truth for myself.

The thought I had today is that we've been talking a lot about learning by doing -- but one of the things that we should not overlook is that study IS doing. Studying the scriptures is one of the commandments, and it is one of the things that we need to be about diligently in our efforts to learn. Along with the study I noted Alma 5:46 where it says:

"Behold, I say unto you they are made known unto me by the Holy Spirit of God. Behold, I have fasted and prayed many days that I might know these things of myself. And now I do know of myself that they are true; for the Lord God hath made them manifest unto me by his Holy Spirit; and this is the spirit of revelation which is in me."

It is by the Holy Spirit that we know the truth, but the Spirit does not, typically, act alone without our efforts. We must study, but also pray and fast about our learning. This is a key part of the doing that needs to be done.

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11 hours ago, The Folk Prophet said:

Day 3: I need to know the truth for myself.

The thought I had today is that we've been talking a lot about learning by doing -- but one of the things that we should not overlook is that study IS doing. Studying the scriptures is one of the commandments, and it is one of the things that we need to be about diligently in our efforts to learn. Along with the study I noted Alma 5:46 where it says:

"Behold, I say unto you they are made known unto me by the Holy Spirit of God. Behold, I have fasted and prayed many days that I might know these things of myself. And now I do know of myself that they are true; for the Lord God hath made them manifest unto me by his Holy Spirit; and this is the spirit of revelation which is in me."

It is by the Holy Spirit that we know the truth, but the Spirit does not, typically, act alone without our efforts. We must study, but also pray and fast about our learning. This is a key part of the doing that needs to be done.

I am beginning to think and believe that there has been a slight spiritual paradigm shift among the Saints with this new year and "Come Follow Me" emphasis.  It seems to me that scripture study in the past was a individual personal matter - often done in private with spiritual gems becoming part of our personal inspiration and spiritual achievement.  But now there seem to be a greater emphasis on bringing others into our personal spiritual space - as well as being more open to other's personal revelations.

It would seem that we are moving towards a system where spiritual light, knowledge and understanding comes not just from leaders in a top down pyramid kind of inspiration targeting individuals to a family centered (both spiritual families that we often think of in terms as kindred spirits and families based upon direct temple covenants or those intended to be included in temple family covenants).  In short that we begin to think more like Enos - outside our personal spiritual box and see and share with others as Christ does.

 

The Traveler

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1 hour ago, Traveler said:

I am beginning to think and believe that there has been a slight spiritual paradigm shift among the Saints with this new year and "Come Follow Me" emphasis.  It seems to me that scripture study in the past was a individual personal matter - often done in private with spiritual gems becoming part of our personal inspiration and spiritual achievement.  But now there seem to be a greater emphasis on bringing others into our personal spiritual space - as well as being more open to other's personal revelations.

It would seem that we are moving towards a system where spiritual light, knowledge and understanding comes not just from leaders in a top down pyramid kind of inspiration targeting individuals to a family centered (both spiritual families that we often think of in terms as kindred spirits and families based upon direct temple covenants or those intended to be included in temple family covenants).  In short that we begin to think more like Enos - outside our personal spiritual box and see and share with others as Christ does.

 

The Traveler

I agree with everything you said. Well done. But I might add a question in response-

But do we acknowledge and recognize truth, or are really "open" to another's personal revelation and interpretations, especially if it is outside of the box we have been inside our whole life, what we have built as security? Are we afraid of truth if it doesn't come from an authorities source such as a prophet? In asking this I tend to think we take too lightly each other's spiritual gifts in discerning and expounding truth to each other. We still want things to be the same, just able to share those same things more openly. Will we crack out of the shell and realize we can receive revelation and truth on par with the prophets regarding truth?

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15 hours ago, The Folk Prophet said:

Day 3: I need to know the truth for myself.

The thought I had today is that we've been talking a lot about learning by doing -- but one of the things that we should not overlook is that study IS doing.

When I first read this yesterday my mind resisted the idea--I was thinking in the box of physical action. However, as I pondered on it over night and opened my mind, I came to realize that there are many areas of gospel learning where study is really the only way of doing learning. 

For example, next weeks lesson is on the mortal birth of Christ. I may lack imagination, but I can't think of anything to DO other than to study about his birth and thoughtfully consider the notion of God blessing us in our own due time.

In fact, for me to learn this helpful precept, all I could DO was study and contemplate what FTP shad aid, thereby providing its own object lesson. :)

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

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1 hour ago, Rob Osborn said:

I agree with everything you said. Well done. But I might add a question in response-

But do we acknowledge and recognize truth, or are really "open" to another's personal revelation and interpretations, especially if it is outside of the box we have been inside our whole life, what we have built as security? Are we afraid of truth if it doesn't come from an authorities source such as a prophet? In asking this I tend to think we take too lightly each other's spiritual gifts in discerning and expounding truth to each other. We still want things to be the same, just able to share those same things more openly. Will we crack out of the shell and realize we can receive revelation and truth on par with the prophets regarding truth?

You can receive all kinds of revelation form God, but you need the right keys of the kingdom to share certain kinds of knowledge and mysteries, and even to receive certain kinds of knowledge and mysteries. For example, the President of the Church has the keys of sealing, which he delegates in part through temple channels (for example, D&C 28: 7, D&C 35: 18, D&C 128: 14).

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5 minutes ago, CV75 said:

You can receive all kinds of revelation form God, but you need the right keys of the kingdom to share certain kinds of knowledge and mysteries, and even to receive certain kinds of knowledge and mysteries. For example, the President of the Church has the keys of sealing, which he delegates in part through temple channels (for example, D&C 28: 7, D&C 35: 18, D&C 128: 14).

I agree fully. The intersting thing with the gospel in large part is we have already been revealed these mysteries in much of their fulness but they still lie in mystery for a lot of us because we are unwilling or unable to open our eyes and see or hear when the HG speaks.  I have found that most truth waiting our discovery has been there all the time we were just looking at it from the wrong angle for so long.

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On 1/2/2019 at 12:39 PM, Rob Osborn said:

I have found when I run into a roadblock in understanding doctrine, along with studying, Going out and serving others and through that process of doing I find the answers to my roadblock I was studying.

Great strategy!

Given that we are responsible for our own learning, it would make sense that we employ the best learning methods.

In that regard,  I am wondering how you and @The Folk Prophet, @seashmore , @SpiritDragon, @CV75,and @Traveler and others interpret the  bolded part of John 5:39 below:

"Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Edited by wenglund
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12 minutes ago, wenglund said:

Great strategy!

Given that we are responsible for our own learning, it would make sense that we employ the best learning methods.

In that regard,  I am wondering how you and @The Folk Prophet and @Traveler and others interpret the  bolded part of John 5:39 below:

"Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Check out that verse using different translations:

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=JOHN+5:39

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5 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said:

Check out that verse using different translations:

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=JOHN+5:39

I checked out the NIV before posting the question. Both NIV and the KJV versions seem to suggest that there is reason to suppose that in the scriptures , themselves, isn't necessarily eternal life.  And, the context (verses 32-40)  seem to support this interpretation. Is that how you read it as well?

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

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10 minutes ago, wenglund said:

 interpret the  bolded part of John 5:39 below:

"Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

 

This whole chapter is wonderful.   Joseph Smith’s translation of John 5:19 is one of my favorite all time scriptures.

 

Anyway Jesus is teaching and chastizing the Jews beacuse they claimed that salvation is in and through the scriptures.  When in reality the Jews didn’t even understand the word of God.  Because of their corrupt interpretation of the Old Trstament they couldn’t even recognize the son of God.

Eternal life does not come from a book.  It comes from living according to the correct intrepretation of the word of God.  By following Christ’s example, partaking of ordinances, and enduring to the end.  

 

Jesus was also cognizant of his expected crucifixation and was effectively developing an antimosity between himself and the political leadership of the Jews. 

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5 minutes ago, wenglund said:

I checked out the NIV before posting the question. Both NIV and the KJV versions seem to suggest that there is reason to suppose that in the scriptures , themselves, isn't necessarily eternal life.  And, the context (verses 32-40)  seem to support this interpretation. Is that how you read it as well?

Well it seems to be saying that IF you can find eternal life in the scriptures, THEN you must accept the Savior, because they (the scriptures) testify of Him.

I'm not sure it's saying eternal life is or is not found in the scriptures. That's a semantic debate anyhow. I think Christ was simply pointing out how they had such much so-called faith in the scriptures, and yet were denying Him, of whom the scriptures testify.

Edited by The Folk Prophet
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5 minutes ago, mikbone said:

Eternal life does not come from a book.

This is what I mean by semantics. If a book has the complete path described wherein on can obtain eternal life then it is perfectly reasonable to say that eternal life comes from a book. It's also perfectly reasonable to say it doesn't, because it's easy to understand that, for example, that car repair knowledge may have come from a book, but the car doesn't repair itself from having read the book alone. Just depends on what one means by the idea.

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