matter + information = life?

[askandanswer]

I was listening to this radio program earlier this week, (see below) which I only half understood, and the author of the book being discussed, Paul Davies, was defending the point of view that matter + information = life. I’m intrigued by this notion, as it might closely resemble the idea derived from LDS theology that there is some sort of close relationship between matter, intelligence and life. Is anybody else familiar with this idea that matter + information = life? I’m not clear about how Paul is using the term "information". If so, could you please help me to understand it? And if you are familiar with this idea, do you think it would still be essentially the same idea if we substituted the word information for intelligence, so that the equation would then read matter + intelligence = life?

 

How does life create order from chaos? A few trillion molecules come together to form an organism of extreme complexity. And what is life?  Biologists describe life in terms of information - DNA. Physicists describe life in terms of energy and entropy and molecular binding strengths. So which is it? This is the frontier of science today. Paul Davies in his book The Demon in the Machine argues a new physics is needed to describe life which combines the two, unifying all theories of the living and the non-living, so that humanity can at last understand its place in the universe.

https://www.abc.net.au/radionational/programs/scienceshow/the-secret-of-life---explanation-through-new-physics/10838274

Incidentally, the author of this book has quite a reputation in the world of physics, so perhaps his ideas should not be dismissed too lightly.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Davies

 

[CV75]

2 hours ago, askandanswer said:

I was listening to this radio program earlier this week, (see below) which I only half understood, and the author of the book being discussed, Paul Davies, was defending the point of view that matter + information = life. I’m intrigued by this notion, as it might closely resemble the idea derived from LDS theology that there is some sort of close relationship between matter, intelligence and life. Is anybody else familiar with this idea that matter + information = life? I’m not clear about how Paul is using the term "information". If so, could you please help me to understand it? And if you are familiar with this idea, do you think it would still be essentially the same idea if we substituted the word information for intelligence, so that the equation would then read matter + intelligence = life?

 

How does life create order from chaos? A few trillion molecules come together to form an organism of extreme complexity. And what is life?  Biologists describe life in terms of information - DNA. Physicists describe life in terms of energy and entropy and molecular binding strengths. So which is it? This is the frontier of science today. Paul Davies in his book The Demon in the Machine argues a new physics is needed to describe life which combines the two, unifying all theories of the living and the non-living, so that humanity can at last understand its place in the universe.

https://www.abc.net.au/radionational/programs/scienceshow/the-secret-of-life---explanation-through-new-physics/10838274

Incidentally, the author of this book has quite a reputation in the world of physics, so perhaps his ideas should not be dismissed too lightly.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Davies

 

I would say the "formula" for life is matter (whether spiritual or physical) + information + agency. I think this is what D&C 93:29-31 indicates.

Condemnation, or the abdication of agency, is death (verse 31, but see the verses in this section that have the word "life" in them as a means to describe its opposite), and exaltation (the fulness of joy) is life (v. 33, 34).

I would also say that information + agency = intelligence, with the greater use of agency culminating in greater intelligence (see hoe intelligence is used in this section's verses). Existence is only comprehended by intelligent entities, so another "formula" might be: life = matter + intelligence.

[CV75]

3 hours ago, askandanswer said:

I was listening to this radio program earlier this week, (see below) which I only half understood, and the author of the book being discussed, Paul Davies, was defending the point of view that matter + information = life. I’m intrigued by this notion, as it might closely resemble the idea derived from LDS theology that there is some sort of close relationship between matter, intelligence and life. Is anybody else familiar with this idea that matter + information = life? I’m not clear about how Paul is using the term "information". If so, could you please help me to understand it? And if you are familiar with this idea, do you think it would still be essentially the same idea if we substituted the word information for intelligence, so that the equation would then read matter + intelligence = life?

 

How does life create order from chaos? A few trillion molecules come together to form an organism of extreme complexity. And what is life?  Biologists describe life in terms of information - DNA. Physicists describe life in terms of energy and entropy and molecular binding strengths. So which is it? This is the frontier of science today. Paul Davies in his book The Demon in the Machine argues a new physics is needed to describe life which combines the two, unifying all theories of the living and the non-living, so that humanity can at last understand its place in the universe.

https://www.abc.net.au/radionational/programs/scienceshow/the-secret-of-life---explanation-through-new-physics/10838274

Incidentally, the author of this book has quite a reputation in the world of physics, so perhaps his ideas should not be dismissed too lightly.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Davies

 

P.S. Stephen Hawking espoused much the same thinking, based on his conclusion that life is derived from the big bang, which was the result of a random quantum event which is defined by literally coming out of nothing (no space, no time, and no matter which no longer exists).

[mordorbund]

1 hour ago, CV75 said:

P.S. Stephen Hawking espoused much the same thinking, based on his conclusion that life is derived from the big bang, which was the result of a random quantum event which is defined by literally coming out of nothing (no space, no time, and no matter which no longer exists).

The Big Bang is not ex nihilo. All space, time, matter, and energy were contained within a singularity. 

[CV75]

11 hours ago, mordorbund said:

The Big Bang is not ex nihilo. All space, time, matter, and energy were contained within a singularity. 

It depends on who you talk to, including some of the more advanced theorists!  I suppose this is why President Nelson pooh-poohs the notion.

At any rate, I'm thinking there are types and degrees of life (just as there are degrees of kingdoms of glory). "Existence" in D&C 93 seems to cover everything that has and hasn't "life" in various degrees. Something that is acted upon doesn't exist as far as another thing that is acted upon is concerned, but certainly exists for those who have the facility to act upon it.

We watch a plant bend toward the light and may assume it hasn't the agency to do so. But perhaps, like someone who makes his righteousness appear easy or natural, the plant has advanced intelligence in this narrow regard, and will never reject the light any more than God does. Perhaps lesser forms of life are simply unrecognized extensions of human life, or human spirits in grossly deformed bodies and will be resurrected as human. After all, Adam named -- or encoded -- everything, and his name means, among other things, "red" (blood, the red blood cells of which have no DNA but white blood cells do), "make" (which he did with Jehovah's instruction) and "earth" (indicating his dominion, including the origin, of all life in this world). Physical life in the garden and after the Fall may just be a manipulation of Adam's original DNA... Just pushing the envelope!

[unixknight]

I think the kind of information being discussed here is Physical Information, which is a concept used in physics (among other sciences.)  This kind of information is discussed as an actual measurable quantity.  

[scottyg]

Just my 2 cents. I think some people, like this Davies guy, try too hard to explain certain mysteries in the hopes that they will be seen as more intelligent. You cannot give a rock information to give it life...it is just a rock. Same with agency...a rock has none. We have a lot of these people in the LDS church, and I think they just need to cool their jets a bit and focus on the important things...the small and simple things. God doesn't care about whether or not you figure out how to create intelligence, but he does care about what you do with your own, and how you use it for the betterment of others.

[Vort]

On 3/1/2019 at 3:55 PM, askandanswer said:

I was listening to this radio program earlier this week, (see below) which I only half understood, and the author of the book being discussed, Paul Davies, was defending the point of view that matter + information = life.

Such ideas paint in broad swaths of primary colors in an attempt to get into our minds some certain idea or relationship. Life IS matter, but not just matter like a rock or a glass of water or a balloon full of air. Life is matter that is arranged and organized in a certain way—in the wording above, life is "organized matter". Such ideas tend to resonate with Latter-day Saints, for obvious reasons.

The problem with these sorts of glib phrases is that they break down on closer examination. A diamond is organized matter, but is not alive. A computer circuit board is highly organized and structured matter, but again, not alive. Life is not simply organized matter; it is matter organized in a certain way.

So I'm sympathetic to the point that Paul Davies was (probably) trying to make, and if he meant what I assume he meant, I agree with him. But his defense should have been (and probably was) of the concept of life as specifically organized matter, and not of the wording of the glib phrase.

[Traveler]

It is my experience that anything that appears to be complex - it is because there are simple elements that are organized in complex ways.  Once we understand the organization - what is otherwise complex becomes amazingly simple.  Another problem is trying to mix religious notions with scientific principles.  Let me be clear - science deals exclusively with that which is empirical but that which is religious, of necessity, seeks to understand things that cannot be known empirically.  

Scientifically we may think of life only in the empirical terms we can observe here on earth and try as we may - think of ways we can project life specific to earth into that which is not of earth.  In all our searching we have not discovered any earth specific type of life anywhere else in the entire universe but is that because there is no other life or that non earth life is, of necessity, unrecognisable for what we think we are looking for as life.

So what is life?  It is not only about the organization of matter and I do not care how complex or sophisticated anything is organized.  Let me make a simple illustration.   A human being is a very intelligent highly organized collection of matter.   But if such a human being suddenly dies of some unknown cause; what has changed?  Scientifically the matter before and after the change from life to death has been carefully observed and there is no discernible empirical difference.   What has changed is something that is not empirically discerned.  As much as science would like to define life as chemical reactions - there is no scientific proof that any such notions have any merit.   If what defines life was known - then we could engineer life and that has yet to happen and for all we know; is not even close to happening.  It may happen some day and if and when it does we can say with some rational - that we have some understanding life or at least some elementrial primeval level of life.  Until then it is all speculation and as far as I am concerned - extremely unreliable speculation.

 

The Traveler

Edited March 5, 2019 by Traveler

[Fifthziff]

On 3/5/2019 at 12:53 PM, Traveler said:

 If what defines life was known - then we could engineer life and that has yet to happen and for all we know; is not even close to happening.  It may happen some day and if and when it does we can say with some rational - that we have some understanding life or at least some elementrial primeval level of life.  Until then it is all speculation and as far as I am concerned - extremely unreliable speculation.

 

The Traveler

Hasn't it already happened in the Garden of Eden?  Or how about when Lazarus was dead for 4 days and stunk, meaning his brain was mush (not like he was on life support or in a coma), did Christ not create life in Lazarus that wasn't there? 

[Traveler]

40 minutes ago, Fifthziff said:

Hasn't it already happened in the Garden of Eden?  Or how about when Lazarus was dead for 4 days and stunk, meaning his brain was mush (not like he was on life support or in a coma), did Christ not create life in Lazarus that wasn't there? 

I am not saying that it has not happened - obviously it has but we do not know what the parameters of life are.  We are missing something that we do not understand - if this was not the case then we could engineer life.  Some call the missing element the "ghost in the machine".  

What I am suggesting is that the ghost in the machine may be more important than some speculate - which would allow living things to exist in environments quite different than what we think is necessary here on earth.  For example if such living things did not feast on other living things; they may not leave behind any residue we are looking for or recognize.   Maybe a supernova or new star may be the result cause by some living thing doing its thing or just eating dessert.

 

The Traveler