Neuro's seitch for fremen fanboys

[mikbone]

10 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

I'd reflect the bolded line above back at you. I know many websites believe it to be sandworm bile.  But that is incorrect.

The water of life is defined in the glossary as the "liquid exhalation from an adolescent sandworm."  I wonder why so many fans don't read the glossary.

It was made by partial drowning of a young sandworm in water.  Then before it actually died, they pulled it out and have it basically cough up the water that went into its lungs.  The result was the water of life - a solution with an extremely high concentration of refined spice, so much so that to most people a tiny amount could be deadly.

You are a true fan, I remember reading or watching something about drowning a young sandworm creating the water of life. 

But the series is now 25 books in length.  I’ve only read like 7 or 8.  The nerds that put together the sci-fi wiki stuff are pretty intense and Im sure one of the newer books goes into detailed description.

In the movie the liquid is transparent and blue - actually looks tasty.

 

[Carborendum]

5 minutes ago, mikbone said:

You are a true fan, I remember reading or watching something about drowning a young sandworm creating the water of life. 

But the series is now 25 books in length.  I’ve only read like 7 or 8.  The nerds that put together the sci-fi wiki stuff are pretty intense and Im sure one of the newer books goes into detailed description.

In the movie the liquid is transparent and blue - actually looks tasty.

I'd say I'm a fan of the original storyline which lasted for three books.  The fourth book completed the storyline (with great disappointment).  Whatever happened afterward is just a different series as far as I'm concerned.  But Herbert's son has to make a living.

[NeuroTypical]

2 hours ago, Carborendum said:

Whatever happened afterward is just a different series as far as I'm concerned. 

A very common and understandable perspective.  I'm a sucker for universe-spanning epics that span millennia in the telling, so what do I care if such a universe has more than one author.

The folks who lose interest be warned: You're missing out on living chairdog furniture, and the battle between the two kinds of space nookie nuns, and how the final battle with the robots involve all the main characters from the main books coming back as muppet baby versions of themselves while the last robot dies of boredom.

(I'd preface that with a spoiler warning, but people usually argue with me about my epic summaries, so your experience shouldn't be diminished by reading what I just wrote.)

 

Also, spice is worm poo.  Other people can have whatever theories they wish, but they've been unable to prove me wrong by quoting canon.

[mikbone]

2 hours ago, Carborendum said:

I'd say I'm a fan of the original storyline which lasted for three books.  The fourth book completed the storyline (with great disappointment).  Whatever happened afterward is just a different series as far as I'm concerned.  But Herbert's son has to make a living.

Some of the prequels are great.

House Atredies & The Butlerian Jihad are worth the read or at least the listen.

Edited August 11, 2023 by mikbone

[Carborendum]

4 hours ago, NeuroTypical said:

Also, spice is worm poo.  Other people can have whatever theories they wish, but they've been unable to prove me wrong by quoting canon.

Challenge accepted.

Again, the glossary states that the spice is "Excretions" from the sandworm.  But most people read "excretion" and think "excrement."  Two different things.

Excretions are analogous to our sweat or oil from our pores.  Not our poop from... well...

Quote

Spice melange is formed deep beneath the sands of Arrakis, where the fungal excretions of sandworm larva mixes with water to form a mass that eventually explodes to the surface due to the planet’s extreme heat

But based on a wider understanding of the books, the actual chemical which has the psychedelic properties is only a small part of that excretion.   The rest is just filler so you don't OD.  This is similar to smoking MJ, when the THC is only a small portion of the colita.

The water of life has a much higher concentration of that chemical than the excretions which are mined by harvesters.

My personal theory is that the psychedelic drug is actually hormones generated by the sandworm and permeates every part of the worm's body.  Internal organs (like the lungs) have high concentrations of it.  Thus, the water of life (the exhalation from the worm after drowning) will be full of it to the point that even a small amount will cause on OD.

Edited August 11, 2023 by Carborendum

[Carborendum]

4 hours ago, mikbone said:

Some of the prequels are great.

House Atredies & The Butlerian Jihad are worth the read or at least the listen.

Nah, I'm just not in the mood to devote that much time anymore.  Everything we loved is going to crap.

• Star Wars
• Indiana Jones
• MCU
• Comics in general

I don't expect to get much entertainment value out of a series that I already saw was going down the tubes -- even when they come highly recommended by people I trust.

[mikbone]

30 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

Nah, I'm just not in the mood to devote that much time anymore.  Everything we loved is going to crap.

• Star Wars
• Indiana Jones
• MCU
• Comics in general

I don't expect to get much entertainment value out of a series that I already saw was going down the tubes -- even when they come highly recommended by people I trust.

Yup, I mostly just listen to audiobooks while exercising.  Always multi-tasking.

[NeuroTypical]

15 hours ago, Carborendum said:

Again, the glossary states that the spice is "Excretions" from the sandworm.  But most people read "excretion" and think "excrement."  Two different things.

Excretions are analogous to our sweat or oil from our pores.  Not our poop from... well...

Quote

Spice melange is formed deep beneath the sands of Arrakis, where the fungal excretions of sandworm larva mixes with water to form a mass that eventually explodes to the surface due to the planet’s extreme heat

Meh.  Some of us poop with poo, some of us poop with "fungal excretions mixed with water".  I guess if you wanna be technical, it's more than poop, it's poop soup.  

Looks like in your research, you missed the most influential and highly researched published study relevant to the topic at hand: 

[Vort]

I seem to remember something about sandworms not being native to Arrakis and maybe not native to this galaxy. I'm sure I didn't read that in any of the books, so I assume I read it from some other source along the way.

EDIT: To be clear, I did not read all of the Dune books. Not even close.

Edited August 12, 2023 by Vort

[Jamie123]

On 8/12/2023 at 5:19 PM, Vort said:

I seem to remember something about sandworms not being native to Arrakis and maybe not native to this galaxy. I'm sure I didn't read that in any of the books, so I assume I read it from some other source along the way.

I remember reading that too. In fact I don't think Arrakis was always a desert planet - it once had oceans. It was turned into desert by the action of the sandworms.

On 8/12/2023 at 5:19 PM, Vort said:

EDIT: To be clear, I did not read all of the Dune books. Not even close.

I've only read the original trilogy. One day I'll have a go at God Emperor, but I found Messiah and Children so turgid that my hopes for it are not high.

The original Dune is a rip-roaring read!

[Carborendum]

On 8/12/2023 at 11:19 AM, Vort said:

I seem to remember something about sandworms not being native to Arrakis and maybe not native to this galaxy. I'm sure I didn't read that in any of the books, so I assume I read it from some other source along the way.

EDIT: To be clear, I did not read all of the Dune books. Not even close.

Leto II said in conversation (in Children of Dune) that they were "introduced" to Arakkis before the Butlerian Jihad (the war on Earth where the humans rose up against the machines).  But he didn't go into detail about where they came from.  He knew by going into ancestral memories.

However, since they have never been found on any other planets other than Arakkis, I would believe they were somehow engineered, and thus introduced to Arakkis.

Edited August 18, 2023 by Carborendum

[NeuroTypical]

The 5th and 6th book had the sandworms successfully transplanted to another planet.  Arakkis had been turned into a lifeless smoking hole by outside enemies to all the players we knew in the trilogy.  A Bene Gesserit project to keep the spice flowing and worms existing, had them release sandtrout onto their secret home planet, which they were slowly turning into a desert and waiting a few decades or centuries for the worms to reappear.

 

The 6th book had one of the most original and cool plot twists I've ever seen in a work of fiction, in how the battle between the Bene Gesserit and the evil LeotardSpaceNookieNuns ended.

 

[Jamie123]

21 hours ago, NeuroTypical said:

The 6th book had one of the most original and cool plot twists I've ever seen in a work of fiction, in how the battle between the Bene Gesserit and the evil LeotardSpaceNookieNuns ended.

You've piqued my interest now! But is it worth slogging through God Emperor of and Heretics of to get to?

[JohnsonJones]

On 8/12/2023 at 10:19 AM, Vort said:

I seem to remember something about sandworms not being native to Arrakis and maybe not native to this galaxy. I'm sure I didn't read that in any of the books, so I assume I read it from some other source along the way.

EDIT: To be clear, I did not read all of the Dune books. Not even close.

I read the first book and started the second, but the books had far too much stuff I really don't want to read about in them (sexuality and such).

But, with all the talk on this thread I did do a wikipedia look up of the series and a little research on line.

The initial novel DOES have inspiration from Christianity.  However, it is more of an atheists take on Christianity.  The entire idea of what Paul (and in reality Leto II) becomes is an idea implanted by the Bene Gesserit to other people so that they can basically colonize and take over those people's lives at it's most basic level (spirituality).  For them, it is merely a genetically created individual that is close to perfection (As they perceive it) that they can control.  The book tries to put a scientific slant on such a Messiah type figure rather than see it as a truly heavenly plan.

For the actual plan of Leto II, it seems that it was due to a Machine War that happened previously.  The A.I. rose up and with machines fought mankind almost to extinction.  Those who could see the future saw that this was an ongoing threat and mankind would eventually be destroyed in some manner.  The ONLY way to stop this was to ensure that man spread out so vastly and so greatly that he could never be completely eradicated.  Part of this was making it so that not all the remnants of mankind would be able to be found, but it was also because man would have to spread out among the stars to escape the tyranny of Leto II. 

What we find out eventually is that this is actually the plan of two A.I.'s that were around since the beginning of the Machine wars.  They had it to preserve humanity in some crazy plan as posted above, and thus mankind is saved by the machines...ironically (though, this last paragraph may or may not have been in the original idea.  Apparently this idea of the A.I's behind it all was only mentioned in the Book written by Frank Herberts Son...Brian Herbert).

 

Also @mikbone and @NeuroTypical

Quote

Its actually Lars Mikkelsen.

Can’t wait.  Hope its as good as the trailer!

 

Who happens to be the brother of Mads Mikkelsen who apparently was also in Star Wars from a Movie called Rogue One or something like that.

Edited August 19, 2023 by JohnsonJones

[Jamie123]

On 8/18/2023 at 2:52 PM, Carborendum said:

Leto II said in conversation (in Children of Dune) that they were "introduced" to Arakkis before the Butlerian Jihad (the war on Earth where the humans rose up against the machines).  But he didn't go into detail about where they came from.  He knew by going into ancestral memories.

I think that must have been where I read it too. In another place he talks about Chaucer and the Canterbury Tales - again from ancestral memories.

[Jamie123]

Also there was a chapter epigraph in Children which interested me. I think it was something about whether changes in environment drive evolution, or whether evolution drives changes in environment - or some such thing. (With all the clutter in my house it could take me years to find the book, so can anyone supply the exact quote?)

[Carborendum]

3 hours ago, Jamie123 said:

Also there was a chapter epigraph in Children which interested me. I think it was something about whether changes in environment drive evolution, or whether evolution drives changes in environment - or some such thing. (With all the clutter in my house it could take me years to find the book, so can anyone supply the exact quote?)

You may be mixing two memories in one.

I remember reading such a quote.  But I don't recall it being Herbert.  (I could be wrong).

However, Herbert did write some things regarding evolution and how man now has the power to choose its own evolutionary path.  I think he phrased it slightly differently in his books than outside his books in interviews, etc.

However, understanding social interactions as I do, I tend to believe that Herbert was even more prescient in this regard than he may have realized.  Who was running the breeding program in the Dune universe?  The Bene Gesserit.

Think about how insightful that is regarding how human society has nurtured evolution in the real world.

[NeuroTypical]

@Carborendum's thread on language got me remembering the cool Sardaukar throat chant.  Some of the thinking behind it was "almost no consonants, just gutteral vowels".

 

[Carborendum]

16 minutes ago, NeuroTypical said:

@Carborendum's thread on language got me remembering the cool Sardaukar throat chant.  

Cool.  Was that from the recent (Chalomet) movie?  I have no memory of that scene.  I might have had to use the facilities at that time.  We were also about three minutes late.  So, if it was at the very beginning, I would have missed it.

[NeuroTypical]

Yep, Tee-moh-tay's recent 2020 movie.  It was somewhere in the first half.

[Carborendum]

11 minutes ago, NeuroTypical said:

Yep, Tee-moh-tay's recent 2020 movie.  It was somewhere in the first half.

Holy Cow.  You're right.  It was almost dead center of the movie.  It is about 1:10 out of about a 2:30 movie.  Absent the opening and closing credits, it was exactly dead center of the movie.

I'm now remember why I forgot the scene.  I spent most of the scene wondering where the heck I saw Piter de Vries before.

It was the Ant-man guy (David Dastmalchian): If it walk like duck and quack like duck, is truth serum.  Versatile actor.  Love him.

By the time I figured it out, I had missed the entire scene. (Hey! donuts)

-- And, minor correction.  It was 2021.

Edited August 24, 2023 by Carborendum

[NeuroTypical]

3 hours ago, Carborendum said:

-- And, minor correction.  It was 2021.

Well, to clarify your correction, the movie was set to be released in 2020, and I had been all excited and fanning out about it since 2019.  But COVID lockdown had people decide to shelve it until the end of 2021.  Quite a sore blow to me, and (at the time), one of the top 5 impacts of covid in my life, along with loss of freedom and an accelerated destruction of the nation as our cities burned.

But yeah, I didn't actually see the movie until 2021 like everyone else.  

[mikbone]

Denis Villeneuve’s science-fiction sequel had been set to open Nov. 3, but will instead land in theaters March 15 next year. With the actors strike entering its second month, “Dune: Part Two” had been rumored to be eyeing a move. Variety earlier this month reported Warner Bros. was mulling the delay.

- AP News

Edited August 25, 2023 by mikbone

[NeuroTypical]

Oh great.  I've got my first personal impact of the writer's strike.  Now I'm torn.  Do I get bummed out because I must wait for Dune?  Or do I keep to my goal of never-giving-a-crap-about-a-hollywood-writer's-strike, and find a way to minimize the anticipation prolongation?

[Vort]

13 minutes ago, NeuroTypical said:

Or do I keep to my goal of never-giving-a-crap-about-a-hollywood-writer's-strike, and find a way to minimize the anticipation prolongation?

That one.