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What LGBTQ+ hath wrot

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1 minute ago, MormonGator said:

You will, and I still think "adopting different viewpoints" isn't the same as seeing this as adopting gay marriage. 

It doesn’t have to be.  Just the Church’s being more “accepting” of gay sex would be problematic enough.  

Edited by Just_A_Guy

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9 minutes ago, Just_A_Guy said:

It doesn’t have to be.  Just the Church’s being more “accepting” of gay sex would be problematic enough.  

Like it or not young people are becoming more and more accepting of homosexuality. And, given my understanding of how time works, eventually the older generation and the way they think about the issue will slowly fade away (not an insult, how life works).  So the church is in a very, very difficult position. I feel sorry for them, they can't please everyone here. As evidenced by this thread-it's a loaded topic, and we agree on one thing @Just_A_Guy (actually we agree on a lot, and that disturbs me) it's a huge problem. 

Edited by MormonGator

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27 minutes ago, MormonGator said:

Like it or not young people are becoming more and more accepting of homosexuality.

Of course they are. Two generations ago, they were becoming more accepting of fornications in general. One to two generations ago, they were becoming more accepting of murdering the unborn. The fact that young people today are embracing corruption that previous generations didn't is hardly news.

29 minutes ago, MormonGator said:

So the church is in a very, very difficult position. I feel sorry for them, they can't please everyone here.

The Church is very blessed, then, that it doesn't need to worry about pleasing anybody except its Head.

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14 minutes ago, Vort said:

ne to two generations ago, they were becoming more accepting of murdering the unborn.

 Interestingly enough, polls show that more and more young people are becoming less accepting of abortion. Which, for  conservatives, puts them in a tough spot. They love to complain about young people and how the world is falling apart, but polls like this make that statement a little confusing. 

 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-fix/wp/2018/01/31/millennials-have-a-surprising-view-on-later-term-abortions/?utm_term=.71424bc609fb
(and, and! it's from the Washington Post. So it's fake news, right? But is says something we either want to hear or like to hear, so it's not fake news, right?) 

Edited by MormonGator

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1 hour ago, Just_A_Guy said:

1.  DPRH, people who attempt/commit suicide—gay or straight—are mentally ill.  Period.  I will mourn with those who mourn, but I refuse to be blamed for someone else’s mental illness; and I refuse to let damnable libertines exploit that mental illness in order to force me or the Church to quit saying the things that harrow up their guilty souls.  If the Church’s softened rhetoric is causing suicides now, then why wasn’t it causing them in equal proportions in the 1970s and 1980s and 1990s and early 2000s when the likes of Lee, Kimball, Peterson, McConkie, Hinckley, and Packer were using much harsher rhetoric?

Even if there were some truth to this:  if we’re out to prevent suicide, then what should we accept as an acceptable ratio of suicides to apostasies?  Is one apostasy for every prevented suicide acceptable,?  Ten apostasies?  Twenty?  Fifty?  A hundred?  

Or should we just quit catering to mentally ill folks whose exits from this life included a calculated lash-out at the people who loved them—and the ghouls who cynically use those deaths for political gain—and focus our efforts on preaching Jesus Christ and Him crucified, and inviting all men everywhere to repent and come to Him?

2.  The issue isn’t just what we mean to say; it’s how the statement will be interpreted by those who hear it.  

As I noted upthread, at least two participants in this very thread are taking this as evidence that the Church is going, or is about to go, soft on the sin of gay sex.

Its like me weaving a swastika into a blanket as an homage to the Navajo:  sure, maybe that’s what I meant; but I also had darned good reason to know that that’s not how it was going to be interpreted.  

1. You had pointed out that we should be wary of causing others to stumble.  I was just trying to point out that this might also cause some to rise.

2.  We can't control how others react or what they conclude.  This was simply a choir of men singing.  I refuse to stop doing what's right and being a friend to others because of how others might interpret it.

Overall, I think music is a safe way to interact with a community that exists, whether you want it to or not.  We can be civil and "break bread" together without agreeing.  

Edited by dprh

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7 minutes ago, dprh said:

I refuse to stop doing what's right and being a friend to others because of how others might interpret it.

Who said anything about stopping people from doing what's right and being a friend to others?

Not very honest of you to cast the argument you disagree with in such terms.

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7 minutes ago, Vort said:

Who said anything about stopping people from doing what's right and being a friend to others?

Not very honest of you to cast the argument you disagree with in such terms.

Quote

 I refuse to be blamed for someone else’s mental illness; 

You mean like how JAG insinuated that I was blaming him for other's mental illnesses?  He took that on himself.  I brought up a hypothetical situation and he made it personal.

I just said that "I" won't stop doing what's right.

Edited by dprh

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35 minutes ago, dprh said:

You mean like how JAG insinuated that I was blaming him for other's mental illnesses?  He took that on himself.  I brought up a hypothetical situation and he made it personal.

I just said that "I" won't stop doing what's right.

That’s a finer hair than even I choose to split.  Your post is what it is; the readers can determine for themselves whether or not it contained an implication that the Church’s position here causes suicides.  And as for what you think I meant to imply:  why, per the logic some have advanced in this thread, it doesn’t matter what I meant to say or even what I said; because my entire audience was going to hear what they wanted to hear anyways.  I can write/speak as carelessly—indeed, recklessly—as I wish, and tell the offended folks that it’s all their fault.  

At any rate, I’m not asking anyone to quit doing right or being a friend.  I’m asking people to quit doing stuff that makes it look like the LDS Church is about to proclaim that gay sex is not sinful.

Edited by Just_A_Guy

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1 hour ago, MormonGator said:

Like it or not young people are becoming more and more accepting of homosexuality. And, given my understanding of how time works, eventually the older generation and the way they think about the issue will slowly fade away (not an insult, how life works).  So the church is in a very, very difficult position. I feel sorry for them, they can't please everyone here. As evidenced by this thread-it's a loaded topic, and we agree on one thing @Just_A_Guy (actually we agree on a lot, and that disturbs me) it's a huge problem. 

Meh.  The “woke” churches are having an even rougher time with their retention/recruiting than we are.

And young people have this annoying habit of getting older and realizing that a lot of the stuff they used to dream about just doesn’t work in real life. ;) 

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2 minutes ago, Just_A_Guy said:

The “woke” churches are having an even rougher time with their retention/recruiting than we are.

Yup, I've mentioned that a few times on the thread. 

2 minutes ago, Just_A_Guy said:

And young people have this annoying habit of getting older and realizing that a lot of the stuff they used to dream about just doesn’t work in real life. 

Yes and no. That might be true for socialism-a lot of leftists grow up and realize that you can't tax people into prosperity, and they are 100% correct. However, there is a fundamental change in our attitude about homosexuality going on. 

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12 minutes ago, MormonGator said:

Yup, I've mentioned that a few times on the thread. 

Yes and no. That might be true for socialism-a lot of leftists grow up and realize that you can't tax people into prosperity, and they are 100% correct. However, there is a fundamental change in our attitude about homosexuality going on. 

There’s a fundamental change about a lot of things going on, including the role of religion, whether free speech is truly desirable, gun ownership, whether honesty in politicians is at least aspirationally desirable, and how we define what is “moral”.  And they all tie into each other; and no one knows where any of it will stop before the End.  Ultimately all we really know is that people who gloat about being on the right side of history rarely are, and that anyone who takes Mormonism at face value has to concede that the libertines will either repent or receive a Telestial glory.

Edited by Just_A_Guy

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2 minutes ago, MormonGator said:

Sorry to break your heart son, but that debate ain't new. 

Naturally, but the sides have shifted.  We’ve seen the party that asked its own president to resign in 1974–and impeached a Democratic president for perjuring himself about sex twenty years later—fall squarely in behind Donald Trump, of all people.

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3 minutes ago, Just_A_Guy said:

Naturally, but the sides have shifted.  We’ve seen the party that asked its own president to resign in 1974–and impeached a Democratic president for perjuring himself about sex twenty years later—fall squarely in behind Donald Trump, of all people.

Yeah, dude. Um...we agree totally on this. 100%. 200% really. 

Edited by MormonGator

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1 minute ago, MormonGator said:

See @Just_A_Guy? This libertarian (me) this socialist ( @Midwest LDS) and this cranky conservative (You) can all unite in our dislike of what's going on right now in DC! Woo hoo! Party! 

Why are you donating to the campaigns of Bernie Sanders AND Elizabeth Warren?

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2 minutes ago, MormonGator said:

See @Just_A_Guy? This libertarian (me) this socialist ( @Midwest LDS) and this cranky conservative (You) can all unite in our dislike of what's going on right now in DC! Woo hoo! Party! 

Pass the CBD around!

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7 minutes ago, MormonGator said:

See @Just_A_Guy? This libertarian (me) this socialist ( @Midwest LDS) and this cranky conservative (You) can all unite in our dislike of what's going on right now in DC! Woo hoo! Party! 

Hey only one of us has donated to the DNC buddy boy and it ain't me!😉

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2 minutes ago, Midwest LDS said:

Hey only one of us has donated to the DNC buddy boy and it ain't me!😉

And only one of us spent the last three hours on his Facebook page ranting about how Eugene Debs is his political idol and hero. 

(See @Midwest LDS? That's why we are friends. I can make references to Eugene Debs and you'll not only know exactly who I mean, but won't tell me how boring history is. I owe you a taco. And some Sour Patch Kids.) 

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3 minutes ago, MormonGator said:

And only one of us spent the last three hours on his Facebook page ranting about how Eugene Debs is his political idol and hero. 

(See @Midwest LDS? That's why we are friends. I can make references to Eugene Debs and you'll not only know exactly who I mean, but won't tell me how boring history is. I owe you a taco. And some Sour Patch Kids.) 

Lol there's a name I haven't heard in a while. Good reference. And you're right, as I'm usually the person boring someone else with my historical jokes, such as that picture I used higher on the thread. I definitely earned a taco for that one.

Edited by Midwest LDS

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Just now, Midwest LDS said:

Lol there's a name I haven't heard in a while. Good reference. And your right, as I'm usually the person boring somepne else with my historical jokes, such as that picture I used higher on the thread. I definitely earned a taco for that one.

Want to hear about Wallis Simpson some more? 

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