MrShorty Posted October 29, 2019 Report Share Posted October 29, 2019 I think laronius is on to something here. Yesterday, interestingly, Pastor Lutzer on the Q&A segment of his radio show tackled the question "can we separate salvation by faith from discipleship?" (https://www.moodymedia.org/ask-pastor-lutzer/archives/question-184/ ). Pastor Lutzer kind of hedged on the answer, but basically would not say that anything is required beyond that initial statement of faith. On another occasion, he responded to the question, "Is repentance required for salvation?" His response was to call that question "a hornet's nest" because there was a lot of debate in Christian circles. Again he kind of hedged that repentance should follow faith, but would not declare it necessary. It sometimes seems that some Protestants will take the "sola fide" part of their theology so seriously that they are very careful to never demand any action on our part to be saved. At this point, I don't think I would be seeking "answers" to his claim that baptism is not required. I might be seeking more to understand his position in more detail. As @Anddenex asked, does he pick and choose commandments to obey, or does he believe that obedience to any commandment is not required? At the end of the day, if your friend is Protestant and you are not, there may not be an "answer" other than, "My study of the scriptures leads me to believe that God expects us to strive to obey commandments." and agree to disagree from there. Anddenex and Midwest LDS 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Traveler Posted October 29, 2019 Report Share Posted October 29, 2019 16 hours ago, Queolby said: That it was optional. Interesting thought - so G-d (perhaps for fun) deals with, plays with or ask (recommends) optional stuff that is not needed or necessary? Why would anyone trust such a character with their life? This means that G-d is not a G-d of truth (objective truth). I would tell you that such thinking may find some place in religious circles - but in science it is pure folly. For example - gravity is not an optional force on mass. In science - optional means that some principle or understanding is missing. The Traveler Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dprh Posted October 29, 2019 Report Share Posted October 29, 2019 12 hours ago, Anddenex said: What does he say when you ask him what other commandments are optional? And why? Or simply, are commandments optional? It is a common 'born again' belief. All you have to do is confess Jesus is your savior (as long as it's not the "Mormon Jesus". You have to believe in the 'Real Jesus') All other commandments are good suggestions, but not necessary to be saved. Anddenex 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Traveler Posted October 29, 2019 Report Share Posted October 29, 2019 15 minutes ago, dprh said: It is a common 'born again' belief. All you have to do is confess Jesus is your savior (as long as it's not the "Mormon Jesus". You have to believe in the 'Real Jesus') All other commandments are good suggestions, but not necessary to be saved. I cannot think of a better fulfillment of the prophesy of drinking (as a dream) and remaining thirsty and eating (as a dream) but not being nourished. Your expression is an excellent example of miss placing ancient wisdom with modern literal folly. The witness of truth is only for those that desire to live according to it. G-d is not optional! Which is the meaning of unnecessary. But there is a place for those that believe G-d and the things of G-d are optional. The Traveler Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vort Posted October 29, 2019 Report Share Posted October 29, 2019 2 hours ago, laronius said: My guess is he believes that we are saved by merely accepting Christ as our Savior. To repeat my earlier assertion: We are saved by "merely" accepting Christ as our Savior. The question then becomes: How does one accept Christ as his Savior? The answer is: Obey him. Do as he did. Walk in his path. Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. (Matthew 7:21-23) JohnsonJones 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Scott Posted October 29, 2019 Report Share Posted October 29, 2019 On 10/28/2019 at 9:46 AM, Queolby said: And I am stumped on how to answer this. I would just show or tell him what we believe. Just go straight to the sources:https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/gospel-topics/baptism?lang=eng If he doesn't belong or believe in our church, he won't agree with you, but maybe he will listen to what we believe. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anddenex Posted October 29, 2019 Report Share Posted October 29, 2019 2 hours ago, dprh said: It is a common 'born again' belief. All you have to do is confess Jesus is your savior (as long as it's not the "Mormon Jesus". You have to believe in the 'Real Jesus') All other commandments are good suggestions, but not necessary to be saved. The experiences I gained from my mission have taught me to try to handle this with questions. I agree with you, that this individual is most likely holds onto the common core belief you are mentioning. If you try to tell these them how they must believe they are never converted. This means they have to be put in a situation where the Spirit can teach them. The only way to do that, is by asking them questions. At some point, if the right question is asked, through a proper explanation (not telling them how they must interpret the verse) they will come to a state of "opposition." At that moment, they will have some spiritual witness (Amulek, and how he recognized afterwards that the Lord was calling out, but he wasn't listening), by which they will have to choose to follow the witness, or continue to walk the same path. My questions were more so to lead to that. What did he say when you asked...? In light of his next response, what did he say when you asked...? Midwest LDS and dprh 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CV75 Posted October 30, 2019 Report Share Posted October 30, 2019 On 10/28/2019 at 11:46 AM, Queolby said: I'm talking to this Christian online and it's not confrontational or anything so I just keep talking to him. He points out that because Christ can forgive sin without baptism that baptism is not necessary. And I am stumped on how to answer this. I feel like it's actually a dumb question but I just don't know how to respond to him respectfully. any ideas? Thanks for your time! He can forgive sin, but He established baptism for us to receive and accpet that forgiveness (remission of sins) -- Acts 2:38, Luke 3:3. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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