B.cole2

An inverstigator's questions I cannot answer

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So I recently met with a potential investigator who wrestled me with a couple of questions I cannot answer.
I have not gone to a mission myself, so I redirected him to the instutue( he was a YSA age) . But it gets me to ask these questions myself. However, hoping to stay as anonymous as this forum permits, I came here to ask. This is what he asked:
1) When a couple had gone through the temple divorce, will their children be sealed to the father or the mother?
    a) And when each or both remarry  in the temple again, could the children be sealed to their new partner?
        Therefore, answers to those will also implies
        i) if sealings can be canceled at all(I had heard "no" before.)
        as well as
        ii)  who children of their previous marriage be sealed to.
2) Is there a written rule that puts an age limit for someone to obtain a temple recommend? Say a minor at the age of 15, 16 desires to obtain a standard temple recommend, not the limited-use type for youths.  I couldn't find any rules says there is an age limit, yet we all know they can't…?

It was kind of embarrassing for me not being able to answer him, and even more embarrassing that i had to come here and ask...

But then... what's the answer?

 

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1 hour ago, B.cole2 said:

When a couple had gone through the temple divorce, will their children be sealed to the father or the mother?
    a) And when each or both remarry  in the temple again, could the children be sealed to their new partner?
        Therefore, answers to those will also implies
        i) if sealings can be canceled at all(I had heard "no" before.)
        as well as
        ii)  who children of their previous marriage be sealed to.

Sealings can be canceled, but only through first presidency approval. I would also add that a sealing is made void when one or both couples are not keeping the Covenant.

Remember a covenant is a two way promise. If we break our promise, God will not keep his (which is to seal us together for eternity in the celestial kingdom).

A “temple divorce” cannot occur until a new sealing is taken Place by one or the other couples. And then, based on the scenario, the presidency will approve or disapprove. 

For example, if one couple has apostatized from the church, I am sure the presidency will approve the the “temple divorce” AFTER the faithful member remarried another faithful member. But if a divorce occurs, and both of the couple are still faithful, I doubt the FP would ok a “temple divorce”.

 

This is how I understand it.

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1 hour ago, B.cole2 said:

So I recently met with a potential investigator who wrestled me with a couple of questions I cannot answer.
I have not gone to a mission myself, so I redirected him to the instutue( he was a YSA age) . But it gets me to ask these questions myself. However, hoping to stay as anonymous as this forum permits, I came here to ask. This is what he asked:
1) When a couple had gone through the temple divorce, will their children be sealed to the father or the mother?
    a) And when each or both remarry  in the temple again, could the children be sealed to their new partner?
        Therefore, answers to those will also implies
        i) if sealings can be canceled at all(I had heard "no" before.)
        as well as
        ii)  who children of their previous marriage be sealed to.
2) Is there a written rule that puts an age limit for someone to obtain a temple recommend? Say a minor at the age of 15, 16 desires to obtain a standard temple recommend, not the limited-use type for youths.  I couldn't find any rules says there is an age limit, yet we all know they can't…?

It was kind of embarrassing for me not being able to answer him, and even more embarrassing that i had to come here and ask...

But then... what's the answer?

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/new-era/1975/12/q-and-a-questions-and-answers/what-happens-when-a-couple-gets-a-temple-divorce?lang=eng

M.

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4 hours ago, Fether said:

I would also add that a sealing is made void when one or both couples are not keeping the Covenant.

Remember a covenant is a two way promise. If we break our promise, God will not keep his (which is to seal us together for eternity in the celestial kingdom).

 

Intersting.  Do you take that to mean a sealing is canceled if someone marries someone else, or if they become inactive and no longer follow any covenants?  Is that true only of sealings, or other covenants as well?   If we violate the covenants made at baptism, is the baptism void?

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4 minutes ago, Just_A_Guy said:

On the minimum age for a temple recommend:  a male has to hold the Melchizedek priesthood, which under current church practice won’t happen before he turns 18.

Someone who holds the Aaronic priesthood can't be sealed, even if they are married and over 18? Not a challenge, honestly don't know the answer. 

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4 minutes ago, MormonGator said:

Thanks bud. Can you give a blessing if you only have the Aaronic? 

Only the blessing of the sacrament, but that's a different kind of blessing.

Interestingly, Priest can baptize, but the can't give blessings.

 

Edited by Scott

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But Can you get temple recommend under 18, though... I'm not talking about getting endowed or sealed.. but a standard temple recommend to attend temple wedding as such?

Can anyone give written source? Otherwise it's as good as words off the internet.

Edited by B.cole2

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15 minutes ago, B.cole2 said:

But Can you get temple recommend under 18, though... I'm not talking about getting endowed or sealed.. but a standard temple recommend to attend temple wedding as such?

Can anyone give written source? Otherwise it's as good as words off the internet.

Current policy (not doctrine) is that the first time you enter a functioning temple as a will be adult, for your own endowment.  It's not to spectate: you are there to make covenants with your Father.  After your own endowment, you are welcome to participate in your own wedding-sealing, vicarious ordinances for the dead, or witness close friends'/relatives' sealing.  Again, not a place for spectating, but rather for acting-- you must have an actively living the Gospel and hence have an active recommend.    All secular wedding traditions (ring exchange, aisle walking, music, etc) are separate from the temple sealing and happen elsewhere.  

Possible exceptions to this are:

- If you are a young child being sealed to your parents, there is a special recommend for that, and of course you may attend your own sealing.

-You are visiting a temple during it's open house before dedication.

-You're an emergency responder here to help somebody.

 

Fetching sources in a minute here.

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Explaining standard adult requirements: https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/temples/what-is-temple-endowment?lang=eng

Cases where child is being sealed to parents is in Handbook 1 and hence I'm not going to link it.  Anyone going through this of course would consult with their bishop/branch president to go through things.  The basic jist is:

-Under 8, no recommend needed.

-8-21 is a limited used recommend, unless of course you have your own adult full recommend. 

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53 minutes ago, B.cole2 said:

But Can you get temple recommend under 18, though... I'm not talking about getting endowed or sealed.. but a standard temple recommend to attend temple wedding as such?

Maureen already provided one source.   It says that males must have the Melchizedek priesthood in order to have such a temple recommend.  Church policy is that you have to be at leasst 18 to have the Melchizedek priesthood.   See here in the Church Handbook 2:

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/handbook-2-administering-the-church/melchizedek-priesthood/melchizedek-priesthood?lang=eng

Edited by Scott

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8 hours ago, B.cole2 said:

So I recently met with a potential investigator who wrestled me with a couple of questions I cannot answer.
I have not gone to a mission myself, so I redirected him to the instutue( he was a YSA age) . But it gets me to ask these questions myself. However, hoping to stay as anonymous as this forum permits, I came here to ask. This is what he asked:
1) When a couple had gone through the temple divorce, will their children be sealed to the father or the mother?
    a) And when each or both remarry  in the temple again, could the children be sealed to their new partner?
        Therefore, answers to those will also implies
        i) if sealings can be canceled at all(I had heard "no" before.)
        as well as
        ii)  who children of their previous marriage be sealed to.
2) Is there a written rule that puts an age limit for someone to obtain a temple recommend? Say a minor at the age of 15, 16 desires to obtain a standard temple recommend, not the limited-use type for youths.  I couldn't find any rules says there is an age limit, yet we all know they can't…?

It was kind of embarrassing for me not being able to answer him, and even more embarrassing that i had to come here and ask...

But then... what's the answer?

 

Starting with the big picture here: 

A sealed family in eternity is not a copy-paste version of the family you have here on Earth.  On Earth a lot of our relationships are heavily influenced by our sins/fallen world.  We grow old, we die, we bicker, we mistreated each other, we get distracted with meaningless junk, etc.  None of that exists in a fully Celestial-ized family unit.  In such a unit, each person is as 100% perfect as the risen Christ Himself.  100% perfect love.  100% perfect you, inside and out.  100% perfect relationships.  

It's .... frankly so different than what we see day to day, and we really don't comprehend it at all.  We don't comprehend living forever, inward perfection, or perfect relationships, or the logistics of it all.  

On to specific questions:

1) This is a logistics question, that we really don't understand right now.  We do know that know person is denied entry into the Celestial Kingdom or their place there due to the fallings of others.  

2)  Standard adult requirements are being an adult: age 18, done with standard schooling, if male Melchizedek priesthood holder, and of course living a testimony of Christ (including the getting a recommend part).  See my other post for more detailed answer.

 

And don't feel embarrassed for asking questions!  :)

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2 hours ago, Grunt said:

Intersting.  Do you take that to mean a sealing is canceled if someone marries someone else, or if they become inactive and no longer follow any covenants?  Is that true only of sealings, or other covenants as well?   If we violate the covenants made at baptism, is the baptism void?

God will force no man to Heaven.

Ultimately, come Judgement Day, a person will either A) accept and personify the covenants they've made with Him and want to join Him in that life.  Or B) not.  Rejecting Him and His ways, and finding so much less happiness because of that.  

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Thanks everyone... this has been very helpful... Ok now I know you have to be 18, and no speculating for first timers...

But I know for a fact one of my remote cousins had gotten married at 17, and she was sealed in the temple. so... how did that work about...I' ask her but she's not with the church now sadly to say...

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1 minute ago, B.cole2 said:

Thanks everyone... this has been very helpful... Ok now I know you have to be 18, and no speculating for first timers...

But I know for a fact one of my remote cousins had gotten married at 17, and she was sealed in the temple. so... how did that work about...I' ask her but she's not with the church now sadly to say...

Assuming that this is in recent years -- if she got married and sealed in the temple at the age of 17, that's something that would have required special permission both legally (in most states) and through the Church.  

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3 minutes ago, Jane_Doe said:

Assuming that this is in recent years -- if she got married and sealed in the temple at the age of 17, that's something that would have required special permission both legally (in most states) and through the Church.  

Got it.. I love the community of this forum, everyone's so helpful.. Learned a lot.

Thanks yall. :)

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12 minutes ago, B.cole2 said:

Thanks everyone... this has been very helpful... Ok now I know you have to be 18, and no speculating for first timers...

You only have to be 18 if you are male.

Quote

But I know for a fact one of my remote cousins had gotten married at 17, and she was sealed in the temple. so... how did that work about...

Because she is female and there is no age requirement for temple marriage, other than local consent laws.  I also knew 17 year old females (it wasn't that uncommon in Utah a few decades ago) who got married in the temple.

See here that females can get married in the temple at age 16 in Alberta for example:


https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/new-era/1971/06/information-for-brides-and-grooms-planning-a-temple-marriage?lang=eng

 

100 or more years ago, girls were married in the temple at least as young as 13.  Some of my relatives (women) were married in the temple at age 14 to men in their 40's.

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12 hours ago, Grunt said:

Intersting.  Do you take that to mean a sealing is canceled if someone marries someone else, or if they become inactive and no longer follow any covenants?  Is that true only of sealings, or other covenants as well?   If we violate the covenants made at baptism, is the baptism void?

Absolutely they aren’t made void. Not on any official records though. But If I start drinking alcohol and beating my wife, all blessing promised to me in Covenants become void due to me not keeping my side of the promise. 

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2 minutes ago, Fether said:

Absolutely they aren’t made void. Not on any official records though. But If I start drinking alcohol and beating my wife, all blessing promised to me in Covenants become void due to me not keeping my side of the promise. 

Thanks.  That makes more sense.  

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14 hours ago, MormonGator said:

Someone who holds the Aaronic priesthood can't be sealed, even if they are married and over 18? Not a challenge, honestly don't know the answer. 

He can get a limited-use recommend to be sealed to his parents, or to be present as a sibling is sealed to his parents.  He cannot get a standard recommend to be sealed to his spouse or to a child of his own. 

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9 minutes ago, Grunt said:

You can have a limited use over age 21.

Of course for baptisms and confirmations.  I was referring the a limited-use recommend for getting sealed to your parents, as that's what B.Cole's question was about.  

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23 hours ago, Grunt said:

Intersting.  Do you take that to mean a sealing is canceled if someone marries someone else, or if they become inactive and no longer follow any covenants?  Is that true only of sealings, or other covenants as well?   If we violate the covenants made at baptism, is the baptism void?

No, and sealings are not canceled either unless a new sealing is requested.   The church always assumes things will work out, even when we mere mortals think otherwise.  That's why we seal ancestors based on records and not on what we think they might want.  Eventually it will be sorted out, but we want to ensure the blessings to as many as we can.

Baptisms are only voided when you are excommunicated, which is a formal process.  And then all church blessings are revoked.  When restored, you are baptized again, and your other blessings and priesthood ordinations are restored.

And remember, the weekly sacrament is a renewal of the covenant, so is a renewal of your baptism.

Interesting, in the early days of the church, baptisms were redone commonly, as a renewal of the covenant.  Sacrament seems far more convenient.

Another interesting fact, when the church was created in 1830, baptism was already performed for the remission of sins, but those who joined the newly founded church were rebaptized as a covenant to Christ's church and received membership in the church through the laying on of hands.

Edited by bytebear

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