What in Sam Hill is the Point of there Being an LDS Church at All?


clbent04

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11 minutes ago, clbent04 said:

I think the misunderstanding is yours and it appears neither of us care to further elaborate to enlighten the other at this point.

Since you started this thread to get answers to your questions... that puts the burden on you...  Since you do not want to put in the work why should I bother?

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2 minutes ago, estradling75 said:

Since you started this thread to get answers to your questions... that puts the burden on you...  Since you do not want to put in the work why should I bother?

Case in point: Are you happy care bear or grumpy care bear?

nuff said

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3 hours ago, clbent04 said:

With what you wrote here, if you replaced "happiness" with "fulfillment", I could subscribe to that.

I don't think the equally wholesome, positive, non-member family is experiencing happiness in a different way that the member family experiences happiness.  Where is your extra happiness coming from?  Those moments you sat in the Celestial room whereas your non-member counterparts weren't?  If you look back at your life and reflect on your happiest moments, do you think you're happy moments trump non-members' happy moments?  

I can state from experience that without a doubt the very happiest moments of my life have all been directly related to my relationship with the Spirit and its revelatory blessings that pertain directly to the gospel of Jesus Christ on this earth. These blessings are given, and have been given, only in relationship to my obedience to the principles and truths of the gospel.

You seem to think standard good-feeling moments of happiness are equivalent to the indescribable joy that the gospel brings. That implies you must lack experience. Which makes your view on the matter suspect. You're trying to argue that one thing you, apparently, have never tasted tastes no better than anything else. This isn't true. When one partakes of the Tree of Life it is truly the most sweet, above all else one has ever tasted. May I recommend a review of Lehi's dream?

Edited by The Folk Prophet
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1 hour ago, clbent04 said:
14 hours ago, Vort said:

Being born in the covenant of your parents' marriage, or its equivalent, is absolutely necessary to inherit eternal life. Accepting and living by the covenants of the gospel as found in the Restored Church, or its equivalent, is absolutely  necessary to inherit eternal life. Living a faithful life of integrity and honor, or its equivalent, is absolutely necessary to inherit eternal life.

If this were the case, what's the point in doing baptisms for the dead?

To allow all of God's children the opportunity of embracing eternal life.

1 hour ago, clbent04 said:

Do you suppose that these proxy baptisms don't allow individuals the chance to enter into the Celestial Kingdom?

I suppose the opposite.

1 hour ago, clbent04 said:

I don't agree that those who haven't discovered the Church in this life are automatically cut off from their chance at entering into the Celestial Kingdom; ergo, I don't believe it's necessary to live your life as an LDS member to enter into the Celestial Kingdom.

But no one in this thread has either said or implied any such thing. This is at the root of our confusion It looks like you're tearing into a straw man.

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7 hours ago, Vort said:

This is at the root of our confusion It looks like you're tearing into a straw man.

I'm not understanding what you wrote here: "Being born in the covenant of your parents' marriage, or its equivalent, is absolutely necessary to inherit eternal life."

I read this as your opinion that everyone must be born in the LDS Church to LDS parents to have the chance to inherit eternal life?  

Also, "Accepting and living by the covenants of the gospel as found in the Restored Church, or its equivalent, is absolutely  necessary to inherit eternal life."

When you say "...living by the covenants of the gospel as found in the Restored Church, or its equivalent, is absolutely necessary to inherit eternal life", to me that sounds like you are saying everyone must live their mortal lives as faithful LDS members otherwise they can't inherit eternal life.

It appears I'm misinterpreting what your saying per your subsequent posts.  Could you help me see what I may be missing with your statements here? 

My confusion stems from you saying these kind of statements I quoted above, but then saying that you understand that baptisms for the dead extend the opportunity for those who didn't live as faithful, LDS members to have eternal life, which, if you do believe that, seems to conflict with your other statements.

Edited by clbent04
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8 hours ago, The Folk Prophet said:

Okay. Same question.

Where did I get the idea that charity is a defining characteristic to those who inherit eternal glory?  I'm not even saying something novel or questionable there.  I don't get why you act surprised with a statement like that.

Edited by clbent04
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Just now, clbent04 said:

Where did I get the idea that charity is a defining characteristic to those who inherit eternal glory?  

Yes, and why do you trust that piece of information as eternal and unchanging where you seem to reject so many other ideas as only interpretations or awaiting further light and knowledge?

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6 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said:

Yes, and why do you trust that piece of information as eternal and unchanging where you seem to reject so many other ideas as only interpretations or awaiting further light and knowledge?

2 Corinthians 13:1

Quote

Every matter must be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses

Not only does it resonate with me, but it's been established many times over in the scriptures clearly and definitively.  Loving God and loving each other are the greatest commandments given to us by God.

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10 minutes ago, clbent04 said:

I'm not understanding what you wrote here: "Being born in the covenant of your parents' marriage, or its equivalent, is absolutely necessary to inherit eternal life.

I read this as your opinion that everyone must be born in the LDS Church to LDS parents to have the chance to inherit eternal life?

You are reading it wrong. Eternal life consists in knowing God, living as God lives, and receiving from God all things that he will give you. One of those things is the blessing of having exalted parentage. This is given you when you are born to a man and a woman who are sealed to each other.

But of course, vanishingly few people in world history were and are born to a man and a woman who are sealed to each other. What of them? For them, God offers an exact equivalent: Being sealed to one's parents in a holy temple of God after one's parents have been sealed to each other as husband and wife. In so doing, one gains access to all the blessings offered to those who were so born.

10 minutes ago, clbent04 said:

Also, "Accepting and living by the covenants of the gospel as found in the Restored Church, or its equivalent, is absolutely  necessary to inherit eternal life."

When you say "...living by the covenants of the gospel as found in the Restored Church, or its equivalent, is absolutely necessary to inherit eternal life", to me that sounds like you are saying everyone must live their mortal lives as faithful LDS members otherwise they can't inherit eternal life.

As above, you are misinterpreting what I wrote. To gain eternal life, one must accept and live up to certain covenants one makes with God, including e.g. baptism and the oath and covenant of the Priesthood for men*. But what of the vast majority of people who are not able to learn and make those covenants in their mortal lifetime? Again, God offers them an exact equivalent: Receiving those ordinances by proxy and learning to live by them in a postmortal state.

*Though not specified in scripture, it is possible that women, too, must accept and obey the oath and covenant of the Priesthood in order to gain eternal life. I base this supposition on the fact that women are one half of the parties that enter the highest (known) order of the Priesthood. They do not hold the Priesthood as men do, but they are blessed and bound by it as men are, which makes me suppose that they receive those blessings by covenant, just as men do.

10 minutes ago, clbent04 said:

It appears I'm misinterpreting what your saying per your subsequent posts.  Could you help me see what I may be missing with your statements here? 

My confusion stems from you saying these kind of statements I quoted above, but then saying that you understand that baptisms for the dead extend the opportunity for those who didn't live as faithful, LDS members to have eternal life.

I hope that has helped you.

My problem with what you have written stems from your initial post:

On 9/2/2021 at 3:12 PM, clbent04 said:

My personal interpretation of the gospel: Before God reveals us the Truth, we are not penalized for rejecting it; and once He does reveal it, He always does it in such an unambiguous and even overpowering way virtually no one who lived a life of Celestial caliber will reject it.

This is misleading. The still small voice of the Holy Ghost teaches truth, but is easily rejected by those who do not have ears to hear. Those who "lived a life of Celestial caliber" normally have done so after hearing the gospel preached to them.

On 9/2/2021 at 3:12 PM, clbent04 said:

Is their still a need for the LDS Church if being a member in your mortal life is not required to make it to the Celestial Kingdom?

The phrase "make it to the Celestial Kingdom" grates most punishingly on my ears. Exaltation is not a competition. It is not a long list of rules and requirements that we must fulfill or we will fail the exam. We don't "make it" to the celestial kingdom as if it's a prize that we eventually win. The celestial kingdom is the dwelling place of the exalted, and we are exalted through the atonement of Jesus Christ when we have become the kind of person who can endure and enjoy exaltation. Paul and others do indeed speak of this using the metaphor of running a race, by which they encourage us to continue even in trial and distress. But the nature of eternal life and exaltation is much different from—I would say opposite to—the nature of a competition where opposing parties strive for mastery over each other.

In any case, the answer to your question above is unambiguously, "Yes." There is a great,  huge, unbridgeable need for the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Without the Restored Church, the gospel is not preached and the power of Priesthood authority is not manifest to men in the flesh. Without the gospel and the authority of the holy Priesthood, salvation is not available to us. And without the ordinances of the temple in the mortal world, those covenants are unavailable to the dead.

On 9/2/2021 at 3:12 PM, clbent04 said:

If we consider a non-member who lives a life worthy enough to be admitted to the Celestial Kingdom upon eventually accepting the gospel for what it is, the fact they made it to the highest Kingdom without living as an LDS member on Earth shouldn't discourage us into thinking the gospel isn't as important as it is.

As I wrote earlier in this thread, exactly no one "lives a life worthy enough to be admitted to the Celestial Kingdom". We do not "earn" our exaltation in any tit-for-tat sense. We are not exalted because we're sooooooooo good.

On 9/2/2021 at 3:12 PM, clbent04 said:

It should further validate the truth that God is a merciful and just God who is mindful of all His children, and how we are unable to comprehend even a small fraction of the many moving pieces involved or the many beautiful reunions that await us.

This may be true, but is irrelevant to what seemed to be your point: That it doesn't really matter if people join the Restored Church and thus enter the kingdom of God in mortality, because it'll always be there afterward. Yes, it matters. It matters a great deal. That a merciful God provides backup plans to help his children doesn't make his primary plan of no importance.

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8 hours ago, The Folk Prophet said:

You seem to think standard good-feeling moments of happiness are equivalent to the indescribable joy that the gospel brings. 

I'm addressing the misconception that LDS families experience happiness on elevated levels unfathomable to non-member families. 

If we compare a positive, wholesome member family to a positive, wholesome non-member family, and if we had some magical instrument to measure the units of happiness each family experiences in this life, do you think the results would be much different?

I'm not arguing the indescribable joy that the gospel brings.  But a non-member family can have just as much contentment in this life when they don't know any better.  They are content with what they have.  It's a human tendency to be content with what we have, at least among those of us who are positive and optimistic. 

A man can be happier in a Nazi concentration camp than a billionaire celebrity.  It's all about perspective and appreciating what you have.

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31 minutes ago, clbent04 said:

Not only does it resonate with me, but it's been established many times over in the scriptures clearly and definitively.  Loving God and loving each other are the greatest commandments given to us by God.

I submit, for your consideration, that you are rejecting this very principle by disregarding some of the other principles and doctrines being discussed as eternal truths. All of the ideas you've been questioning as unknowns have been repeated by witness upon witness.

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17 minutes ago, clbent04 said:

If we compare a positive, wholesome member family to a positive, wholesome non-member family, and if we had some magical instrument to measure the units of happiness each family experiences in this life, do you think the results would be much different?

Yes.

17 minutes ago, clbent04 said:

I'm not arguing the indescribable joy that the gospel brings.  But a non-member family can have just as much contentment in this life when they don't know any better.  They are content with what they have.  It's a human tendency to be content with what we have, at least among those of us who are positive and optimistic

I don't believe we've been speaking of contentment. That seems to be a goal post shifting.

 

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27 minutes ago, Vort said:

*Though not specified in scripture, it is possible that women, too, must accept and obey the oath and covenant of the Priesthood in order to gain eternal life. I base this supposition on the fact that women are one half of the parties that enter the highest (known) order of the Priesthood. They do not hold the Priesthood as men do, but they are blessed and bound by it as men are, which makes me suppose that they receive those blessings by covenant, just as men do.

For anyone interested, just for clarities sake, Vort's talking about the patriarchal order of the priesthood. Though, per scripture, the Melchizedek is the highest and all else are appendages. But that's quibbling uselessly.  The patriarchal order is the highest level of the Melchizedek (that we know of, though I would argue, also speculatively, that we know... it is the highest. It is, ultimately, what God is...as in a Father. A.k.a., a patriarch)...so... Yes, some semi-speculation, but on pretty solid footings.

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Thanks for the clarification. 

Quoting myself for context to your quote --- My personal interpretation of the gospel: Before God reveals us the Truth, we are not penalized for rejecting it; and once He does reveal it, He always does it in such an unambiguous and even overpowering way virtually no one who lived a life of Celestial caliber will reject it.

1 hour ago, Vort said:

This is misleading. The still small voice of the Holy Ghost teaches truth, but is easily rejected by those who do not have ears to hear. Those who "lived a life of Celestial caliber" normally have done so after hearing the gospel preached to them.

I don't think it's misleading.  I stated it's my personal interpretation.  And since you admitted that no one knows where the dividing line is on who is to be extended a chance to accept the gospel in the life hereafter versus those of us who have already received our chance to accept it, I think personal interpretation is all we have at this point.

My studies of the gospel have led me to have the interpretation that I do, and I haven't found anything contrary that God will not be as merciful and lenient as possible in extending all our brothers and sisters the chance to accept the gospel in the clearest way possible.

Contemplate in your mind right now the 10 most loving, charitable, and caring people you have met in your life.  I can do the same and tell you that some of them are members and some non-members. 

If the non-members are just as advanced in the amount of love they've developed in their lives, do you really think accepting the gospel will be difficult for them once they are extended the opportunity to accept it? 

The difficult part is developing love.  If they already have that down, accepting the gospel will be natural for most people in my category of those I consider to have Celestial caliber regardless of which religion they claimed on Earth.

Edited by clbent04
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24 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said:

I submit, for your consideration, that you are rejecting this very principle by disregarding some of the other principles and doctrines being discussed as eternal truths. All of the ideas you've been questioning as unknowns have been repeated by witness upon witness.

I'm not rejecting anything. Only questioning.

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13 hours ago, The Folk Prophet said:

I don't believe we've been speaking of contentment. That seems to be a goal post shifting.

I'm not goal post shifting. I'm trying to help you understand my initial point you responded to.

Edited by clbent04
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1 hour ago, clbent04 said:

I'm not rejecting anything. Only questioning.

Questioning is a form of rejection I'd say. But that doesn't address the point. Why do you question some things that have been from the mouth of two or three or more witnesses and not others? 

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57 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said:

Questioning is a form of rejection I'd say. But that doesn't address the point. Why do you question some things that have been from the mouth of two or three or more witnesses and not others? 

I’ve questioned pretty much everything I can think of related to religion.

Just because I’m questioning what I am within this topic, doesn’t mean I haven’t previously questioned something I might currently be stating more confidently.

I try to understand the topics I address so they resonate with me on a logical and spiritual level. 

Some topics can only be understood spiritually. Some topics I have very little to no understanding and am just left with faith to accept as true. 

Accepting something in faith alone might sometimes be necessary as an LDS member, but if you’re able to develop understanding beyond that, why not try?

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On 9/2/2021 at 8:44 PM, Grunt said:

This year I've spent a considerable amount of time looking at Catholicism due to some questions I had.

I met with a Catholic Priest while on my mission and obtained a copy of the Catholic Bible, including the apocryphal books, and also a copy of the catechism.  In reviewing the Catholic doctrines for understanding and comparison, I came across this little gem that really helped me understand the concept of original sin:

Quote

". . . the transmission of original sin is a mystery that we cannot fully understand."
[Link]

😁

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1 hour ago, Grunt said:

As a very happy non-member family who became a very happy member family, I can confirm that at least in my experience I didn't realize how much happier I could be.

It is also something life long members can have difficultly understanding.  Those who have received the Gift of the Holy Ghost at age 8 and have been diligently trying to keep the commandments all there lives, will have a strong tendency to view the blessing they are getting as 'Normal.'  And if it is normal then it is just like everyone else.

It took me hearing testimonies of those that had fallen away for a time before coming back, and their descriptions of how things felt, before, during, and after, to help me have a greater appreciation of that which has been so easy for me to take for granted.

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15 minutes ago, estradling75 said:

It is also something life long members can have difficultly understanding.  Those who have received the Gift of the Holy Ghost at age 8 and have been diligently trying to keep the commandments all there lives, will have a strong tendency to view the blessing they are getting as 'Normal.'  And if it is normal then it is just like everyone else.

It took me hearing testimonies of those that had fallen away for a time before coming back, and their descriptions of how things felt, before, during, and after, to help me have a greater appreciation of that which has been so easy for me to take for granted.

I spoke about it a little in the interview I gave about 8 months after I was baptized.  I also often reference it in my talks.   On the one hand I wish I'd entered the covenant sooner to have had a lifetime of growth, but on the other I'm so glad I wasn't born into it.  I have the benefit of experience on both sides of the font.  I know what the difference is.

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