Unconditional Love

[Carborendum]

1 hour ago, mikbone said:

I don’t like to see anyone try to put words into the prophets mouth or interpret / clarify his statement.  His words stand on their own.

I agree.

1 hour ago, mikbone said:

The term ‘unconditional love’ is not found within the scriptures.  

And?  We use all sorts of language to describe concepts that are certainly religious without using words found in scriptures.  Regardless of a prophets words spoken 20 years ago or 2000 years ago, language evolves.

I'm speaking in a manner that should be understood today while still staying true to the meaning of a statement 20 years ago.

1 hour ago, mikbone said:

It is a fallacy.  A common tool used by the adversary to pull the wool over the eyes and ears of those who cannot see or hear.  Reminds me of chapter 28 of 2 Nephi.

Yes, and I absolutely agree with this sentiment as I've stated before.

Edited June 15, 2023 by Carborendum

[Vort]

Does God love Satan?

If you answer no, then you are probably comfortable with the idea that "unconditional love" is not a Godly attribute, and in fact does not exist at all.

If you answer yes, then there is more work to be done. Is Satan still a subject of potential salvation?

- If so, how does this square with the doctrine that Satan and his angels are forever lost, as indicated by the name "Perdition"? More importantly, how does this not encourage lawless behavior and selfishness? I mean, if Satan himself can still be saved, then why not eat, drink, and be merry? For it shall be well with us.

- If not, then what good does God's "love" do for Satan? God has warm, squishy feelings toward Satan, and that somehow means something?

God's love is manifest in his blessings that he bestows. (In this, I guess that means God's love language is giving and receiving gifts.) If God will not or cannot bestow blessings, then his love is not manifest. Therefore, by any utilitarian definition of "love", God does not—cannot—love the wicked and rebellious to the same degree that he loves the humble and penitent. To put it another way, God loves the humble and penitent more than the wicked and rebellious, as demonstrated by how he blesses the former group above the latter. I don't see another reasonable interpretation of the idea of God's love.

Edited June 15, 2023 by Vort

[Vort]

The edit function must be returned to the bottom of the post.

Edited June 15, 2023 by Vort
Carthage must be destroyed.

[mikbone]

42 minutes ago, Vort said:

Does God love Satan?

God's love is manifest in his blessings that he bestows.

Why don’t you just make 2 new threads?

I don’t think anyone is beyond God’s divine love. Unfortunately, Lucifer probably can sense God’s love and despises it. He is a conundrum.

And I think that God wants to give us all that He has. Fortunately, he can’t, because we don’t have the wisdom to use his power safely, or we would outright abuse our privilege.  Jesus Christ is the only one that has proven he is worthy of obtaining Heavenly Fathers full blessings.

Edited June 15, 2023 by mikbone

[Traveler]

2 hours ago, mikbone said:

I don’t like to see anyone try to put words into the prophets mouth or interpret / clarify his statement.  His words stand on their own.

https://bycommonconsent.com/2022/03/14/is-divine-love-unconditional-grappling-with-a-20-year-old-lds-doctrinal-conundrum/

The above is a do-gooders attempt to steady the ark.

 

The term ‘unconditional love’ is not found within the scriptures.  But it is found all over social media.  Unfortunately, many people have fixated on the social media interpretation of unconditional love and then have used the term to describe God.

It is a fallacy.  A common tool used by the adversary to pull the wool over the eyes and ears of those who cannot see or hear.  Reminds me of chapter 28 of 2 Nephi.

 

Words, even the words of a prophet, to my understanding and experience, can only stand on their own if the hearer knows what the words mean.  I must admit that I do not understand the meaning of the word “love”.  Love to me is a term that is greatly ambiguous. A husband may say to his wife, “I love you”. And the wife responds with, “If you loved me, you would not leave the toilet seat up.”  I have used the word “love” many times.  If love is preceded by unconditional – I honestly do not understand how that adjective modifies the meaning.  Whether the word is spoken or heard, it seems to carry a different meaning based on some expectation of love being given or received?

My parents taught me as a youth that a kind person is not a person that is occasionally kind.  What makes the difference between a kind person and an unkind person is that a kind person is always kind, especially when kindness is not expected.  An unkind person is only kind when they have to be kind or have no other option.

I think love and kindness are greatly related.  I think if we love someone, we are kind to them.  I do not know how we can say we love someone and then not be kind to them.

There is another adjective to love that confuses me.  The adjective is tough.  This is another term I do understand how it changes love.  I do not understand how tough love is any different than just plain old ordinary love.

The great principle of love as I try to understand G-d seem to be “agency”.  The great argument of Lucifer seems to be – if you truly love someone how can you allow them to destroy themselves and disappoint everyone, including themselves?

I would really love to pick someone’s brain that has mastered the true nature of love as G-d exercises love.  To be honest – it seems to me that Lucifer has a better understanding of how most people expect love to be exercised – especially as they are concerned.

 

The Traveler

[estradling75]

2 hours ago, Vort said:

Does God love Satan?

My thoughts

Yes... but Satan does not love God...

God could save Satan but Satan refuses to be saved. God's love for Satan means he honor Satan's wishes.

Satan's lack of salvation causes him pain, but the closer he is to God the more pain he is in, because of his lack of salvation.  Thus God, because Satan will not be saved, is motivated by Love, to have Satan be far away.

Thus God's love of Satan spares him 'some' pain, but not as much as it could because of Satan's rebellion.

If Satan could start to Love God enough to change, God's love would pull him back.  Satan and other "Perditions" would seem to be incapable of making that change.

My 2 cents for what they are worth

[Carborendum]

21 hours ago, Vort said:

- If so, how does this square with the doctrine that Satan and his angels are forever lost, as indicated by the name "Perdition"? More importantly, how does this not encourage lawless behavior and selfishness? I mean, if Satan himself can still be saved, then why not eat, drink, and be merry? For it shall be well with us.

- If not, then what good does God's "love" do for Satan? God has warm, squishy feelings toward Satan, and that somehow means something?

God's love is manifest in his blessings that he bestows. (In this, I guess that means God's love language is giving and receiving gifts.) If God will not or cannot bestow blessings, then his love is not manifest. Therefore, by any utilitarian definition of "love", God does not—cannot—love the wicked and rebellious to the same degree that he loves the humble and penitent. To put it another way, God loves the humble and penitent more than the wicked and rebellious, as demonstrated by how he blesses the former group above the latter. I don't see another reasonable interpretation of the idea of God's love.

Now you've just generated two more definitions of love.

SQUISHY FEELINGS:

When we tell someone "I love you", what, exactly is that supposed to convey?  Nothing but a squishy feeling, really.  But it does mean something. What does it mean?  I really can't say.

I've asked my wife many times why on earth she chose me over every guy she ever knew (and quite honestly, there were some better catches in our student ward where we met).  All she can say is "because I loved you, and I didn't love anyone else."  Whatever lack of meaning the squishy feeling may mean for anyone else, it was enough for her to choose me. And I'm grateful for that squishy feeling.

BLESSINGS:

I absolutely agree that this is one definiton.  And by this definition, I absolutely agree that God's love is conditional.  This was the primary message Elder Nelson was trying to convey when he said that God's love is conditional.  And it is this primary message with which I agree whole-heartedly.  (D&C 130:21 "Any blessing... obedience to that law...)

UNIVERSAL:

What exactly is "Universal love"?  Nelson does state that His love is universal.  The definition/examples he gives is that it is His invitation that is open to all.  Whatever we gleen from this, it is for "all".  I'm going to omit sons of Perdition for now.  But when he says he loves everyone, doesn't that mean everyone?  He invites all, but He does not invite everyone?  There have to be some qualifiers (conditions).  But then that means that the term "universal" doesn't apply.  So, what exactly is he saying? 

I don't really understand this mindset of shoe-horning in this nebulous concept of "love" into a single, one-and-only, no nuances allowed definition.  But whatever.

If he says that

• love is not unconditional
• it is given to everyone

What the heck?  There have to be multiple types of love we're talking about.  One type of love is conditional (Blessings).  Another type of love from God is unconditional (His desire to enable us to do good/invitation).

Again, my attempt is not to "do the interpreting of Elder Nelson's words for everyone else."  My purpose is to try to make sense of it as I read it for myself.

The way that I can reconcile everything I read there is that the Lord has a desire for good for everyone, regardless of who we are.  But that doesn't mean that all the blessings are there for everyone. 

The thing that is available for everyone is the promise to give those blessings as we make the right choice to turn to the Savior and follow Him.

BOTTOM LINE:

My primary question is to ask: What is the purpose in telling people that God's love is conditional?  According to Nelson's address, it to condemn the idea that people thought that they were going to receive Eternal Life regardless of what they do.  And I agree with that condemnation.  My interpretation that God will always "want what's best for us" is indeed unconditional and doesn't stray from Nelson's message.

If there was some other purpose of his words which would be blunted by my interpretation that God's squishy feelings are unconditional, then let me know.

SONS OF PERDITION:

As far as the squishy feelings for Satan, et al, I have to believe that God preventing them from even attaining any level of glory is because if He did not do so, something even worse would happen to them.

That is what the squishy feeling does for them.  There is a benefit which we are not quite aware of.  Maybe for them?  Maybe for others?  Maybe for all existence?  The prophets have not said.  But the very character of God lends itself to this conclusion.

Edited June 16, 2023 by Carborendum