Isaiah 4:1 - An Additional Interpretation

[person0]

Quote

And in that day seven women shall take hold of one man, saying, We will eat our own bread, and wear our own apparel: only let us be called by thy name, to take away our reproach.

I have considered, on occasion over the past year or so, that aside from the various plausible circumstances that could bring this to pass, an additional circumstance could be a large swath of repentant detransitioned women, who, depending on the extent of their initial transition, may not have a realistic opportunity in this life to fully participate in a marriage as a result of the changes they previously underwent.  I would imagine this potentially being in combination with other ways the prophecy might be fulfilled.

Thoughts?

[Traveler]

28 minutes ago, person0 said:

I have considered, on occasion over the past year or so, that aside from the various plausible circumstances that could bring this to pass, an additional circumstance could be a large swath of repentant detransitioned women, who, depending on the extent of their initial transition, may not have a realistic opportunity in this life to fully participate in a marriage as a result of the changes they previously underwent.  I would imagine this potentially being in combination with other ways the prophecy might be fulfilled.

Thoughts?

You make a most interesting point.  Isaiah chapter 4 is and important part of Isaiah and is repeated in the Book of Mormon in 2Nephi chapter 14.  Isaiah is perhaps the greatest example of ancient Hebrew poetry structure ever written.  The Chiasm of the chapter connects verse 1 to verse 6 and the heart of the Chiasm are verses 3 and 4.  Verse 4 makes another reference to the “filth of the daughters of Zion”.  The men of Zion between verse 1 and verse 6 are symbolically a “tabernacle” and a place of refuge.

The bifid structure of Isaiah also points chapter 32:2 which has more to say about men of Zion being a shelter and refuge.

Isaiah is quite complex, and I believe that it can only be understood through personal revelation – which is something you have shared from how the spirit has spoken to you.  I think Isaiah has more to tell us than what you and I have discussed.  The spirit speaks softly to me as well that what you have heard through the spirit and Isaiah is something to be included in understanding. 

 

The Traveler

[laronius]

53 minutes ago, person0 said:

I have considered, on occasion over the past year or so, that aside from the various plausible circumstances that could bring this to pass, an additional circumstance could be a large swath of repentant detransitioned women, who, depending on the extent of their initial transition, may not have a realistic opportunity in this life to fully participate in a marriage as a result of the changes they previously underwent.  I would imagine this potentially being in combination with other ways the prophecy might be fulfilled.

Thoughts?

There are a number of different possibilities with this prophecy. Many early church leaders felt polygamy was to a large degree a fulfillment. Others point to the scripture about many men dieing in war being the cause. I've even heard the idea that these women represent other churches who want to be affiliated with the Lord's church when that truth becomes known.

The wording of the verse is interesting in that the seven women say "we" not "l". This would seem to indicate that having multiple wives was viewed as being acceptable or at least better than not being married at all.

Now as to point of the cause, war could definitely be a logical factor. As for detransitioning women, I don't know that that has yet to become a common enough phenomenon to merit mention in the scriptures, but I guess it's possible. Currently less than one percent of people claim to be transgender and two thirds of those are biological males. But that could change. 

[person0]

1 hour ago, laronius said:

Currently less than one percent of people claim to be transgender and two thirds of those are biological males.

Not sure how long ago you last researched the stats but my current understanding is that, when factoring in today's minors, that number essentially inverts (more biological women transitioning).

[laronius]

9 minutes ago, person0 said:

Not sure how long ago you last researched the stats but my current understanding is that, when factoring in today's minors, that number essentially inverts (more biological women transitioning).

It may have just been those who actually remain transitioned as adults but the study did say that so much of what qualifies as transitioning is subjective that different studies can produce different results. I read somewhere else of a phenomenon they are seeing, especially among young women, where when one comes out as being transgender one or two close acquaintances on average come out as well and they aren't sure how much of that is legitimate verses just wanting to be part of the in thing or even just the unsureness that teens often feel about themselves. But my main point was that the number is very small, regardless. That's not to say it couldn't be part of what Isaiah is talking about though. And we don't know how far this is going to go in society either. 

[CV75]

On 6/3/2023 at 10:11 AM, person0 said:

I have considered, on occasion over the past year or so, that aside from the various plausible circumstances that could bring this to pass, an additional circumstance could be a large swath of repentant detransitioned women, who, depending on the extent of their initial transition, may not have a realistic opportunity in this life to fully participate in a marriage as a result of the changes they previously underwent.  I would imagine this potentially being in combination with other ways the prophecy might be fulfilled.

Thoughts?

I think it good to consult the Church materials. This prophecy was fulfilled, and like the abomination of desolation, could possibly recur. And we can learn lessons as we apply it to ourselves. But the women's desperate condition in Isaiah 4:1 is in no way an indicator of their righteous desires or repentance, but rather the apostate way in which the benighted seek redemption from their misery through false solutions. Their request is the epitome of the consequence for their filth, not their repentance. Isaiah 4: 2 picks points to verses 3 and 4, the redemption of those who remain after the scourging and judgement of those in verse 1, who are destroyed.

Lesson 4: Punishment and Redemption of the Lord’s Vineyard

Suggested Lesson Material

• Isaiah 3–5.

• Old Testament Student Manual: 1 Kings–Malachi, 140–42.

Key Doctrine, Principles, and Concepts

• When we are righteous, we enjoy the blessings of our choices. When we sin, we suffer the negative consequences of our choices (see Isaiah 3:1–11).

• If we turn away from the Lord, we will lose His protection and help and experience sorrow and suffering (see Isaiah 5:1–25).

Isaiah 4:1 (and what follows) is a continuation of the previous chapters): The Establishment of Zion (Isaiah 1–12) (churchofjesuschrist.org) Just a snippet from this second link:

(13-22) Isaiah 3:24–26. The Fruits of Transgression upon the Daughters of Zion

The prophet contrasts their former beauty with the results of judgment. Because of their wickedness, the beauty, the pride, and the fashion will become tragedy, disaster, and slavery. The girdle in verse 24 was the sash used to fasten the outer clothing. Keil and Delitzsch showed that the “rent” which was to replace it was the rope used to bind slaves. Sackcloth was black goat’s hair worn at times of great mourning. The “burning” refers to the branding that often accompanied one’s being made a slave. Thus Keil and Delitzsch translated this verse: “And instead of balmy scent there will be mouldiness, and instead of the sash, a rope, and instead of artistic ringlets a baldness, and instead of the dress cloak a frock of sackcloth, branding instead of beauty” (Commentary, 7:1:147).

(13-23) Isaiah 4:1. “Take Away Our Reproach”

Verse 1 of chapter four seems to continue the thought of chapter three rather than to begin a new thought. This phrase suggests that the condition mentioned in verse 1 is caused by the scarcity of men, a result of the devastation of war mentioned in Isaiah 3:25–26. The conditions under which these women would accept this marriage (“eat our own bread, and wear our own apparel”) are contrary to the Lord’s order of marriage (see Exodus 21:10; D&C 132:58–61). To be unmarried and childless in ancient Israel was a disgrace (see Genesis 30:23; Luke 1:25). So terrible would conditions in those times be that women would offer to share a husband with others and expect no material support from him, if they could claim they were married to him.

[Carborendum]

On 6/3/2023 at 9:11 AM, person0 said:

I have considered, on occasion over the past year or so, that aside from the various plausible circumstances that could bring this to pass, an additional circumstance could be a large swath of repentant detransitioned women, who, depending on the extent of their initial transition, may not have a realistic opportunity in this life to fully participate in a marriage as a result of the changes they previously underwent.  I would imagine this potentially being in combination with other ways the prophecy might be fulfilled.

Thoughts?

Regardless of the cause, there are two perspectives that are usually brought to the discussion:

• Women will have "reproach".
• Some condition will cause there to be a lot more women than men.

Your interpretation satisfies #1.  It may satisfy #2, but with the male de-transitioners.  There are a WHOLE lot more men wanting to be women than vice versa.  When they de-transition, they won't be functionally men (depending on the level of initial transition).

Of the numbers support it, then this would be a valid way of satisfying the prophecy.  But if the numbers don't support it, then it's probably not a valid interpretation.

[person0]

3 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

There are a WHOLE lot more men wanting to be women than vice versa.

My understanding is that, as a result of the Rapid Onset Gender Dysphoria social contagion affecting American teenagers, the numbers are inverted from what you are suggesting.  Since I began researching this issue when it first swept through my ward a few years ago, I have always heard/read that females significantly outnumber males in terms of transitioning, particularly beginning during the teen years.  I wonder if the males simply get more publicity due to the greater societal conflict caused by a male to female transition?  That said, I do agree with your premise, it ultimately will depend on how the math works out.

[Carborendum]

Just now, person0 said:

My understanding is that, as a result of the Rapid Onset Gender Dysphoria social contagion affecting American teenagers, the numbers are inverted from what you are suggesting.

I guess I could see that.  I'd like to see those statistics.

But the real question (for which I have not seen actual statistics) is how many have gone through surgical transitioning to mutilate the organs and reshape them.  Perhaps the hormonal treatments alone will also be a factor depending on age and duration of application.  The rubber hits the road when determining whether de-transitioning will be successful or not.

[person0]

10 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

I'd like to see those statistics.

This is from 2019, but shows trans men (female-to-male) with nearly double the rates of some type of transition surgery.
Demographic and temporal trends in transgender identities and gender confirming surgery - PMC (nih.gov)
 

Quote

In general, GCS is more common in transgender men than in transgender women. . . Transgender men self-report GCS prevalence at rates of 42–54%, while transgender women report it at around 28%. . .

A different website with recent statistics shows slightly more males who transition (39% vs 36%).  That said, the numbers are not nearly enough to make up for the drastically higher surgery rates among females who transition.

[Carborendum]

I've been considering that virtually all of the latest social pressure regarding any male/female issues are all about the promiscuity among women, while also being unwilling/unable to marry or have children.  This would include transgenders, abortion, homosexuality, feminism, etc.

I have always wondered how a prophecy from over 2000 years ago could talk about seven women who have their own money.  Only prostitutes had their own living as single women (with some very rare exceptions) in that day and age.  How could such a prediction have been considered reasonable in that day and culture?  

Feminism has opened the door for the professional woman.  I think that is a good thing that the door is open.  But the culture went further than that.  It pushed the idea that it was not just open as a backup plan.  It was supposed to be the preferred choice over that of homemaker.  This is destroying our society.

Over the past several decades, marriage rates have been declining.  Divorce has been rising, and about 70% of marriages are initiated by women.  This is true whether it was the man or the woman's fault.  In earlier generations, men cheated more than women.  Over the past couple of decades it has been shifting.  Today, married women are slightly more likely to cheat than men. 

Among unmarried, but committed couples, women are FAR more likely to cheat.  And this is due to an interesting dynamic.  Women are MUCH more hypergamous than men.  So, when we're not bound by the social and legal contract of marriage, the entire population of available women will tend to choose a small percentage of available men.  And the ratio?  It tends to be about 7:1.

[Traveler]

10 hours ago, Carborendum said:

......

Over the past several decades, marriage rates have been declining.  Divorce has been rising, and about 70% of marriages are initiated by women.  This is true whether it was the man or the woman's fault.  In earlier generations, men cheated more than women.  Over the past couple of decades it has been shifting.  Today, married women are slightly more likely to cheat than men. 

Among unmarried, but committed couples, women are FAR more likely to cheat.  And this is due to an interesting dynamic.  Women are MUCH more hypergamous than men.  So, when we're not bound by the social and legal contract of marriage, the entire population of available women will tend to choose a small percentage of available men.  And the ratio?  It tends to be about 7:1.

I think it depends on how we define cheat.  If we include what our prophets have said concerning pornography – men are much more likely to become involved in attempts to cheat on the law of chastity.  I am inclined to believe that a great deal of the problems surfacing in our generation’s confusion of gender is strongly rooted in pornography and its rippling effect throughout society.

I do not think that the prophesy in Isaiah has been fulfilled yet.  Until it is fulfilled, speculations are unlikely to be sufficiently accurate.

It is possible (see chapter 3) that the beginning of chapter 4 is speaking specifically of the daughters of Zion.  If chapter 3 is relevant, then a goodly number of men (men of Zion?) will be killed in war time battles.   What is currently going on in Israel may be critical to this discussion.

 

The Traveler