Christ as our Foundation

[zil2]

This comes from Helaman 5:12:

Quote

12 And now, my sons, remember, remember that it is upon the rock of our Redeemer, who is Christ, the Son of God, that ye must build your foundation; that when the devil shall send forth his mighty winds, yea, his shafts in the whirlwind, yea, when all his hail and his mighty storm shall beat upon you, it shall have no power over you to drag you down to the gulf of misery and endless wo, because of the rock upon which ye are built, which is a sure foundation, a foundation whereon if men build they cannot fall.

Some analogies click for me - usually because I can visualize them or relate to characters in a story.  Other analogies, not so easy.  This is one that has not worked as well for me - I mean, Christ is a person, not a slab of concrete, and what does it mean to build on a person (obviously, we can't go trying to alter said person - that wouldn't work at all).  Instinctively, without words or images, the analogy works for me, but I can't explain that instinct to anyone else.  I think I've figured out a way, but first, I'd like to hear from others.

I'd especially like to know if @Carborendum has any insights as an engineer who I'm sure has a much better understanding of foundations and building on them...

Anywho, any and all thoughts you may have about "building our foundation on Christ" (see there, I've already messed it up - Christ isn't the foundation, he's the thing on which we build our foundation... ).  Anywho, any thoughts you may have about this analogy would be greatly appreciated.

 

(Shall I get the mob joke out of the way, about pouring a concrete foundation over a dead body...?  No?  Too poor taste?  OK, nevermind.)

[zil2]

And re-reading - he's the rock on which we build our foundation, but later in the verse, he's also the foundation....   Whichever way you want to go is fine by me.

[zil2]

PS: Best hymn ever (and every ward should have brass and percussion sections):

ETA: And all seven verses should be mandatory!

 

Edited December 6, 2023 by zil2

[CV75]

25 minutes ago, zil2 said:

This comes from Helaman 5:12:

Some analogies click for me - usually because I can visualize them or relate to characters in a story.  Other analogies, not so easy.  This is one that has not worked as well for me - I mean, Christ is a person, not a slab of concrete, and what does it mean to build on a person (obviously, we can't go trying to alter said person - that wouldn't work at all).  Instinctively, without words or images, the analogy works for me, but I can't explain that instinct to anyone else.  I think I've figured out a way, but first, I'd like to hear from others.

I'd especially like to know if @Carborendum has any insights as an engineer who I'm sure has a much better understanding of foundations and building on them...

Anywho, any and all thoughts you may have about "building our foundation on Christ" (see there, I've already messed it up - Christ isn't the foundation, he's the thing on which we build our foundation... ).  Anywho, any thoughts you may have about this analogy would be greatly appreciated.

 

(Shall I get the mob joke out of the way, about pouring a concrete foundation over a dead body...?  No?  Too poor taste?  OK, nevermind.)

Jesus is the chief cornerstone which supports and stabilizes the walls of the foundation, so we do build our lives upon Him. Because of this, He can also be called the foundation-of-the-foundation.

Edited December 6, 2023 by CV75

[Carborendum]

43 minutes ago, zil2 said:

I'd especially like to know if @Carborendum has any insights as an engineer who I'm sure has a much better understanding of foundations and building on them...

Anywho, any and all thoughts you may have about "building our foundation on Christ" (see there, I've already messed it up - Christ isn't the foundation, he's the thing on which we build our foundation... ).  Anywho, any thoughts you may have about this analogy would be greatly appreciated.

I'll try -- if you really want me to get technical, I can get technical.

43 minutes ago, zil2 said:

(Shall I get the mob joke out of the way, about pouring a concrete foundation over a dead body...?  No?  Too poor taste?  OK, nevermind.)

🤪

42 minutes ago, zil2 said:

And re-reading - he's the rock on which we build our foundation, but later in the verse, he's also the foundation....   Whichever way you want to go is fine by me.

That is interesting.  I've never noticed that before.  So, that made me take a look at the meaning of the word from an ancient person's perspective.

Consider the phrase "The Foundation of the World."  Even if we believe "it's turtles all the way down," the world does not sit on a foundation.  The word in both Hebrew and Greek the word "foundation" means "beginning of the work" or "lay the basis" or "establish."  And it is this meaning that I think is more important than the physical meaning of the substructure.

For comments on the physical rock foundation, see a previous post: https://thirdhour.org/forums/topic/75768-protestant-mormons/#comment-1094571

 

FOUNDATIONS ARE ONLY AS GOOD AS THE SOIL UPON WHICH THEY REST.

Helaman actually inserts a slightly different imagery into the usage of the word "foundation."  So, here's where I'll get technical.  I'll illustrate by describing the process of soil preparation.

For standard concrete slab type foundations (anciently, they'd find stones to form to proper shapes, then lay them) we need to understand the soil conditions.  For example, we can't place a slab on swampy soil.  Some soils seem to look like any other soil to the uninitiated.  But various soils will have different load capacities.

While in modern times, we have many options to deal with most soil conditions, the ancients did not necessarily have those options.  So, we look at the problem from their perspective.

For soil that is generally good soil, the soil still has to be prepared.  This process essentially makes the soil prep the "beginning of the work" below the stone foundation.  No matter how well the foundation is designed, if you place the perfect foundation on swampland or marsh, it will sink into the swamp (even if it doesn't burn down, fall over, then sink into the swamp).

If we see Christ as that "establishment" as we do the soil preparation, we see some interesting metaphoric correlations.

• We need to get rid of all deleterious portions (weeds, dead wood, stones that are unacceptable).
• The grading is a type of forming/shaping.  He grew in wisdom and stature and favor with God and man.
• Compacting the soil requires huge earthmovers to drive back and forth for major compaction, before a steam-roller smooths it all out with minor compaction.  This draws up images of the olive press of Gethsemane.

Just some things that occurred to me upon your prompt.

Edited December 6, 2023 by Carborendum

[zil2]

27 minutes ago, CV75 said:

Jesus is the chief cornerstone which supports and stabilizes the walls of the foundation, so we do build our lives upon Him. Because of this, He can also be called the foundation-of-the-foundation.

It's how to extend the analogy I don't get.  I comprehend anchoring a stud to the concrete foundation of my house - I've got pictures of big honking screws going down through the wood into the concrete.  Then other studs are nailed to that, etc.  How do you extend this analogy with Christ, whether as the rock our foundation is on, as the foundation, or as the cornerstone.  What are the nails or screws, what are the studs or the other stones.  How do we go about attaching these to the foundation?  That's where the analogy has always fallen apart for me (so to speak).

(Written and posted before reading what @Carborendum wrote.)

[zil2]

19 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

This process essentially makes the soil prep the "beginning of the work" below the stone foundation.  No matter how well the foundation is designed, if you place the perfect foundation on swampland or marsh, it will sink into the swamp (even if it doesn't burn down, fall over, then sink into the swamp).

This is good.  This is why Christ is our foundation - he's solid, we won't sink, our foundation won't crack up and fall this way and that (or whatever).

It may help to point out that I can expand Alma's "plant the word" analogy all the day long - it's easy to relate that to activities we would do: how we prepare the soil (prepare our hearts, rid our lives of things that would prevent growth), plant the seed (choose to believe or at least act on the desire to believe), nourish the seed (act as if it were going to grow, try it out), then nourish the tree (continue those actions, feed it through study and prayer, fasting and good works), or how we could neglect them (ignore all those good works and leave the tree on its own) - this is easy.  But this foundation one has always been more difficult for me.

And I see that I didn't explain my mental block well enough - it's this expansion of the analogy - in short, the act of building - that I struggle with (see my reply to @CV75).  Hopefully you and others will have equally helpful ideas on how to continue the analogy.

[CV75]

36 minutes ago, zil2 said:

It's how to extend the analogy I don't get.  I comprehend anchoring a stud to the concrete foundation of my house - I've got pictures of big honking screws going down through the wood into the concrete.  Then other studs are nailed to that, etc.  How do you extend this analogy with Christ, whether as the rock our foundation is on, as the foundation, or as the cornerstone.  What are the nails or screws, what are the studs or the other stones.  How do we go about attaching these to the foundation?  That's where the analogy has always fallen apart for me (so to speak).

(Written and posted before reading what @Carborendum wrote.)

I would say the items you listed are covenants that bind and seal us to Him, and we attach ourselves to Him by making them. And the prep work leading to that (faith and repentance). We stay attached by honoring these covenants (baptism, the gift and companionship of the Holy Ghost, priesthood and temple). 

 

[Carborendum]

24 minutes ago, zil2 said:

It's how to extend the analogy I don't get.  I comprehend anchoring a stud to the concrete foundation of my house - I've got pictures of big honking screws going down through the wood into the concrete.  Then other studs are nailed to that, etc.  How do you extend this analogy with Christ, whether as the rock our foundation is on, as the foundation, or as the cornerstone.  What are the nails or screws, what are the studs or the other stones.  How do we go about attaching these to the foundation?  That's where the analogy has always fallen apart for me (so to speak).

(Written and posted before reading what @Carborendum wrote.)

I'm not quite certain of the difficulty you're having.  But I can clarify some of the construction elements which you mentioned here.  Maybe, by learning what all these elements are and how they are put together, that could give you some prompts.  But it can get pretty detailed/complicated.  So, take your time.

We're looking at a residential wood structure sitting on concrete stemwalls/retaining walls which extend down to a basement level with a concrete slab floor.

1. All the stuff I said about soil prep are still true.  But since you don't have a walk-out basement, the soil testing and prep will have to include soil that was completely unknown prior to development.

2. The perimeter footing and any interior structural walls will have to be sized for the total tributary loads from roof down to the concrete walls. 

• The concrete walls also weigh a lot (about 100 psf of wall). 
• The footings below the load-bearing walls, then, must be very wide.
• Soil prep under the load-bearing walls is more critical than under the slab areas.
• The concrete walls have to be formed with the rebar all placed and tied in place between the formwork prior to pouring.
• The anchor bolts and "hold-down" bolts are secured in position and (horizontally and vertically) by various devices as the concrete cures.
  • The anchor bolts are usually 1/2" to 7/8" dia with either an "L" or a locked bolt at the bottom to secure it into the concrete. 
• After all this preparation work is complete, we can pour the concrete.
• The concrete can be consolidated in a number of ways.  A popular method is vibration or knocking.  Complex conditions are required to perform this properly.

3. When we set the wood on top of the concrete stemwalls, we have the following elements.

• Once the concrete cures, a sill/sole plate made of pressure treated lumber (usually a 2x4 to 2x8 depending on purpose)is cut to size and drilled to accept the anchor bolts. 
  • The pressure treating is to prevent desiccation effects from the concrete. 
  • Some builders will use regular lumber with a plastic or other moisture barrier between the wood and the concrete.
• Once the sole plate is placed, nuts and washers are used to secure the plate into place.
• The hold-downs usually require special anchors and they need to be careful about placement. 
  • The hold-downs themselves are special brackets that tie the anchor to a wall stud or column. 
  • These prevent the overturning loads (usually wind or seismic) from pulling the structure off the foundation.
  • While studs are usually toe-nailed into the sill plate, a column will usually have a column base bracket to prevent direct contact with the concrete.
    • I once inspected a private school construction where a particular column was anchored with multiple hold-downs.  But based on the load distribution, I couldn't figure out why the hold-down was there.  There was no way it would be subject to uplift.  Then it occurred to me that there was no post base to hold it into position.  And the designer decided to use the hold-downs as a "hold-in-place" base bracket because of some odd framing requirements.  It worked.  So, I approved it.

4. Another part of putting that all together is that the wall framing is largely held in place by plywood.  The wall panels are nailed to the studs as well as the sole plate.  So, it is all  part of the same structural pieces.

ONE MORE THING

I skipped over a part for your house.  The connection between the basement walls and the footings.  

1. The footings will have the area excavated, cleared, & prepped to receive formwork.

• The formwork is cut and installed to the dimension required by calculation of loads.
• The rebar is cut and tied together.
• The network of rebar is placed on discrete supports to provide space for the concrete to run under the rebar.

2. The vertical rebar must also be tied into the footing bars.

• Supporting those bars both horizontally and vertically would be similar to the securing of the anchor bolts at the top of the basement wall.
• After the footing is poured and cured, the vertical bars will have splices added to them to provide full height reinforcement for the wall.
• Horizontal pieces are tied for the wall to be secure in both directions.

I believe the rest goes beyond the scope of foundations.  So, let me know if you have any other questions.

 

[zil2]

28 minutes ago, CV75 said:

I would say the items you listed are covenants that bind and seal us to Him, and we attach ourselves to Him by making them. And the prep work leading to that (faith and repentance). We stay attached by honoring these covenants (baptism, the gift and companionship of the Holy Ghost, priesthood and temple).

This was the conclusion I came to - it's about "attaching" to Christ.  That idea worked better for me than "building on Christ".  (More below.)

The following has been written over the course of a few sessions, with breaks in between and is basically me trying to figure it out by explaining it (answering my own question).

14 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

I'm not quite certain of the difficulty you're having. 

Yeah, sometimes I have a blind spot, and I know it's there, but I can't explain it.  I can imagine "the word" (meaning the teachings of Christ) as a "seed" and I can imagine myself (heart and mind) as the "soil" in which I plant that "seed", and all the rest that follows.  I'm having a much harder time imagining Jesus Christ (the person) as a rock or a foundation on which I "build" some unspecified thing (in the start of the verse, it's "my foundation" (not sure what that is) and later in the verse, it's myself)....

I mean, trying to visualize this like I can visualize planting a seed and nourishing it and the tree that grew from it just wasn't working - like I said, Christ isn't a concrete slab. (It would be easier for me if this verse were closer to Matthew 7:24-27 or even Alma's story, where the "rock" is the teachings of Christ, but that's not what it says.)  But I'm over complicating it.  If a rock (obviously, we're talking bedrock here) symbolizes Christ, and I'm to build "my foundation" (whatever that is) or "myself" on said symbolic rock, now I get farther - I can visualize bedrock and building on said bedrock.  But now I need to imagine that what I build is either "my foundation" (really have no idea what that means) or "myself" (I know what this means, so I'll just stick with it).

The verse itself gives me some hints in the middle, specifically, the reason for building on this rock (that it gives you an anchor so you don't get blown away by a tornado or washed away by a hurricane or similar).  That also suggests that you can't just build something resting on top, held only by gravity, what you build has to be anchored to the rock.  (Your comments, @Carborendum, help here, demonstrating the degree to which the foundation, or the building, must be firmly attached to what's under it.)

I suppose another difficulty is imagining "building on Christ" - that just seems like a strange idea to me.  Anchoring to him, or attaching to him, those make a lot of sense.  If I think of "anchoring my foundation to the bedrock of Christ" or "anchoring my building to the foundation that is Christ", I can make more progress. (And I've never once heard anyone even attempt to flesh out this analogy the way Alma does his seed analogy, and yet I hear it used frequently - "build your foundation on Christ" - without any further expounding on what that means.)

So, recently I was thinking about this and thinking more like Legos or even, for example, insert or tee nuts.  You can't connect any old thing to them - you have to have Legos to connect to Legos (or an off brand designed to the same specs).  For the insert nuts, they'll only take a bolt with the right diameter and threading.

Similarly, if we're going to "build on Christ", we have to have the right connector - you can't just attach any old thing, won't work.  If I try to build a sinful self on Christ, it won't attach, I won't be anchored.  But the life of a disciple, that can be anchored to Christ - covenants are the connectors, perhaps the Holy Ghost is also a connector.  Ordinances are the act of making the connection, perhaps repenting would work as the act of connecting (or repairing damaged connections).  Our various building materials (the concrete of our foundations or the studs used to build the frame, etc.) could be righteous attributes like charity or patience or long-suffering or mercy that we're trying to "build" in ourselves; faith and righteous deeds could be the action of putting it all together.  Living the gospel of Jesus Christ is "building ourselves on him" (aka connecting ourselves to him).  And because there's so many ways to live the gospel, we'll each look a little different (some of us will build a shack, others will have managed to build a mansion), but that's OK, as long as it's anchored to Jesus Christ.

And my house could look different from your house because I'm spending more time on scripture study, so that room is bigger for me, but you're spending more time serving others, so that room is bigger in your house, and maybe I'll need an add-on later.

I still don't know what "my foundation" is, except that if I look at it as just part of what I'm building (myself), then that's OK.  Perhaps "your foundation" is your testimony and conversion.  Whatever it is, it's all got to be anchored to that bedrock which is Christ, anchored with covenants, built by keeping covenants, maintained through repentance, with faith that the bedrock is unassailable, that the anchors will hold, that I'm not wasting my efforts, that all this will keep me from those storms that are coming.

OK, I think I can work with this.  Perhaps others see this differently, or perhaps others have also been hearing "build your foundation on Christ" for 5 decades and been content with the instinctive "yeah, that's a good idea" without ever trying to figure out what your foundation is or how you build "on Christ"...  Regardless, I think I can run with this analogy now, explain it to others, use it to visualize and teach principles.

Would still be interested if anyone else has additional ideas on how to use or "build on" this analogy.

Thanks!

[CV75]

11 hours ago, zil2 said:

This was the conclusion I came to - it's about "attaching" to Christ.  That idea worked better for me than "building on Christ".  (More below.)

The following has been written over the course of a few sessions, with breaks in between and is basically me trying to figure it out by explaining it (answering my own question).

Yeah, sometimes I have a blind spot, and I know it's there, but I can't explain it.  I can imagine "the word" (meaning the teachings of Christ) as a "seed" and I can imagine myself (heart and mind) as the "soil" in which I plant that "seed", and all the rest that follows.  I'm having a much harder time imagining Jesus Christ (the person) as a rock or a foundation on which I "build" some unspecified thing (in the start of the verse, it's "my foundation" (not sure what that is) and later in the verse, it's myself)....

I mean, trying to visualize this like I can visualize planting a seed and nourishing it and the tree that grew from it just wasn't working - like I said, Christ isn't a concrete slab. (It would be easier for me if this verse were closer to Matthew 7:24-27 or even Alma's story, where the "rock" is the teachings of Christ, but that's not what it says.)  But I'm over complicating it.  If a rock (obviously, we're talking bedrock here) symbolizes Christ, and I'm to build "my foundation" (whatever that is) or "myself" on said symbolic rock, now I get farther - I can visualize bedrock and building on said bedrock.  But now I need to imagine that what I build is either "my foundation" (really have no idea what that means) or "myself" (I know what this means, so I'll just stick with it).

The verse itself gives me some hints in the middle, specifically, the reason for building on this rock (that it gives you an anchor so you don't get blown away by a tornado or washed away by a hurricane or similar).  That also suggests that you can't just build something resting on top, held only by gravity, what you build has to be anchored to the rock.  (Your comments, @Carborendum, help here, demonstrating the degree to which the foundation, or the building, must be firmly attached to what's under it.)

I suppose another difficulty is imagining "building on Christ" - that just seems like a strange idea to me.  Anchoring to him, or attaching to him, those make a lot of sense.  If I think of "anchoring my foundation to the bedrock of Christ" or "anchoring my building to the foundation that is Christ", I can make more progress. (And I've never once heard anyone even attempt to flesh out this analogy the way Alma does his seed analogy, and yet I hear it used frequently - "build your foundation on Christ" - without any further expounding on what that means.)

So, recently I was thinking about this and thinking more like Legos or even, for example, insert or tee nuts.  You can't connect any old thing to them - you have to have Legos to connect to Legos (or an off brand designed to the same specs).  For the insert nuts, they'll only take a bolt with the right diameter and threading.

Similarly, if we're going to "build on Christ", we have to have the right connector - you can't just attach any old thing, won't work.  If I try to build a sinful self on Christ, it won't attach, I won't be anchored.  But the life of a disciple, that can be anchored to Christ - covenants are the connectors, perhaps the Holy Ghost is also a connector.  Ordinances are the act of making the connection, perhaps repenting would work as the act of connecting (or repairing damaged connections).  Our various building materials (the concrete of our foundations or the studs used to build the frame, etc.) could be righteous attributes like charity or patience or long-suffering or mercy that we're trying to "build" in ourselves; faith and righteous deeds could be the action of putting it all together.  Living the gospel of Jesus Christ is "building ourselves on him" (aka connecting ourselves to him).  And because there's so many ways to live the gospel, we'll each look a little different (some of us will build a shack, others will have managed to build a mansion), but that's OK, as long as it's anchored to Jesus Christ.

And my house could look different from your house because I'm spending more time on scripture study, so that room is bigger for me, but you're spending more time serving others, so that room is bigger in your house, and maybe I'll need an add-on later.

I still don't know what "my foundation" is, except that if I look at it as just part of what I'm building (myself), then that's OK.  Perhaps "your foundation" is your testimony and conversion.  Whatever it is, it's all got to be anchored to that bedrock which is Christ, anchored with covenants, built by keeping covenants, maintained through repentance, with faith that the bedrock is unassailable, that the anchors will hold, that I'm not wasting my efforts, that all this will keep me from those storms that are coming.

OK, I think I can work with this.  Perhaps others see this differently, or perhaps others have also been hearing "build your foundation on Christ" for 5 decades and been content with the instinctive "yeah, that's a good idea" without ever trying to figure out what your foundation is or how you build "on Christ"...  Regardless, I think I can run with this analogy now, explain it to others, use it to visualize and teach principles.

Would still be interested if anyone else has additional ideas on how to use or "build on" this analogy.

Thanks!

Souunsd good to me! When we are one with Christ, He is both the foundation (load-bearer) and our foundation (the basis of our faith); as such we bear others’ burdens (in likeness of His Atonement), which is the witnesses of Christ and our faith in Him.

[laronius]

I think these words from Paul bring some insight.

1 Cor. 3:9 For we are labourers together with God: ye are God’s husbandry, ye are God’s building. 10 According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon. 11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; 13 Every man’s work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man’s work of what sort it is. 14 If any man’s work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. 15 If any man’s work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire. 16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you? 17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.

I could be wrong but I don't think actually attaching a structure to a foundation was common back then. Rather, a building meant to last was usually constructed of stone, the weight of which would keep it in place assuming the foundation could bear it. So if we are starting with a sure foundation it's the quality of the structure itself that will determine whether it stays put. And because we are talking of spiritual things, it's not so much the building itself that matters but what takes place inside. Temples are built to create holy space and what takes place in that space endures. Likewise, whatever structure we build, it's what happens inside that will endure into the eternities.

[Traveler]

For sake of discussion, I will put forward some ideas.  There is a title of Messiah or Christ that goes beyond the person that receives that title.  The ancient meaning of Messiah or Christ was the anointed one.  In addition, there is also a mention of the spirit of Christ.  My personal thinking is that this is something other than the spirit person of Jesus that was our older brother in our first estate.  Perhaps the attitude and persona that Jesus took upon himself in our first estate that distinguished him there as The Son of G-d - the only begotten of the Father.  In terms of Jesus Christ or Jesus the anointed - has unique and singular meaning directly associated with the “plan of salvation” and the atonement, in that all that are anointed for any divine cause must be anointed according to the order of the priesthood of Christ.

The title of Christ is appointed to the name of Jesus by which he was anointed and by which we know him and partake with him in the plan of salvation.   There are scriptures by which Jesus presents himself as our covenant proctor in the Father’s plan thereby under the covenant he has the role and title of father by which we partake of the covenant and Jesus becomes the unique and only way or path to return to the kingdom of heaven to be a citizen and agent that is one with the Son and the Father (See the gospel of John chapter 17).

 

The Traveler

[zil2]

Some links, for reference:

3 Nephi 11:39-40

Matthew 7:24-27