Meaning of Eternal Progression

[laronius]

In doing some web surfing concerning the topic of eternal progression I came across a website that was not particularly supportive of the Church so I won't reference it but it was pointing out what it claimed to be conflicting LDS views of what eternal progression meant. Here are the quotes:

“All organized existence is in progress, either to an endless advancement in eternal perfections, or back to dissolution… Nothing less than the privilege of increasing eternally, in every sense of the word, can satisfy the immortal spirit. If the endless stream of knowledge from the eternal fountain could all be drunk in by organized intelligences, so sure immortality would come to an end, and all eternity be thrown upon the retrograde path.” (Brigham Young, “Life and Death, Etc.”, Journal of Discourses, vol. 1, pp. 349-353, July 10, 1853.)

Wilford Woodruff wrote in his journal (spelling intact):

“I attended prayer meeting in the evening Circle. President Young asked Elder Orson Pratt what He thought of his preaching that intelligent beings would continue to learn to all Eternity. O. Pratt said that He believed the Gods had a knowledge at the present time of evry thing that ever did exhist to the endless ages of all Eternity. He believed it as much as any truth that he had ever learned in or out of this Church. President Young remarked that he had never learned that principle in the church for it was not taught in the Church for it was not true. It was fals doctrin For the Gods & all intelligent Beings would never scease to learn except it was the Sons of perdition they would continue to decrease untill they became dissolved back into their native Element & lost their Identity.” (Wilford Woodruff’s Journal, Vol. 4, pp.401-402, February 17, 1856).

Joseph Fielding Smith: “The Book of Moses informs us that the great work of the Father is in creating worlds and peopling them, and “there is no end to my works, neither to my words,” he says, “For behold, this is my work and my glory—to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man,” and in this is his progression.

“Commenting on this the Prophet Joseph Smith has said: ‘What did Jesus do? Why; I do the things I saw my Father do when worlds come rolling into existence. My Father worked out his kingdom with fear and trembling, and I must do the same [that is Christ must do the same]; and when I get my kingdom. I shall present it to my Father, so that he may obtain kingdom upon kingdom, and it will exalt him in glory. He will then take a higher exaltation, and I [Christ] will take his place, and thereby become exalted myself. So that Jesus treads in the tracks of his Father, and inherits what God did before; and God is thus glorified and exalted in the salvation and exaltation of all his children.’

“Do you not see that it is in this manner that our Eternal Father is progressing? Not by seeking knowledge which he does not have, for such a thought cannot be maintained in the light of scripture. It is not through ignorance and learning hidden truth that he progresses, for if there are truths which he does not know, then these things are greater than he, and this cannot be. Why can’t we learn wisdom and believe what the Lord has revealed? (Doctrines of Salvation, Vol.1, p.7)

 

That's the end of the quotes and I apologize for the length but I wanted to be thorough. I'm not sure if the Church has an "official" position on this topic but to me personally I don't think these differing viewpoints have to conflict. Maybe only one of them is right but maybe D&C 93:30 applies here in that "All truth is independent in that sphere in which God has placed it..." with one viewpoint correct within one "sphere" and the other viewpoint correct within a different "sphere." Thoughts?

[zil2]

I don't know how to respond to Brigham Young's assertion that immortal beings continue to learn.  in Lectures on Faith, it is well argued that if we didn't have assurance of God's omniscience and omnipotence, we couldn't have faith it God's ability to save or exalt us - after all, if He doesn't know all and have all power, how does He know that he can exalt us - for all He knows, there is something that will stop him, or someone more powerful that will interfere.

Of course, one can argue that God's omniscience and omnipotence are both within his sphere, and that he may well be increasing in knowledge and power by advancing to higher spheres:

Revelation 2:17

Quote

17 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth it.

D&C 130:10-11

Quote

10 Then the white stone mentioned in Revelation 2:17, will become a Urim and Thummim to each individual who receives one, whereby things pertaining to a higher order of kingdoms will be made known;

11 And a white stone is given to each of those who come into the celestial kingdom, whereon is a new name written, which no man knoweth save he that receiveth it. The new name is the key word.

This white stone (the phrasing may make it seem like there are two, but I think the combination of both references clarifies that it's one) will reveal to those in the celestial kingdom "things pertaining to a higher order of kingdoms" - What!?  Yep, that's saying there are kingdoms higher than the celestial - at least, I don't know what else it could be saying.  Now, I think it's worth noting that only those in the celestial kingdom receive this.  Therefore, I don't believe it can be argued that those in the terrestrial or telestial may also advance.  Indeed, every indication is that they cannot.  What's more, there's every indication that only those in the highest degree of the celestial kingdom have any chance at advancing, if anyone does.

So then we go back to the quote from the Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith - about the Savior working out his kingdom and giving it to the Father.  Perhaps this constitutes the Father moving into a higher order of kingdom.  That would correspond to only those in the highest degree of the celestial kingdom advancing - since only they have increase / continuation of the seeds.  Eventually, the "round" will repeat, and the exalted will present their kingdoms to the Savior, etc. etc.

This leaves the lower levels of the celestial kingdom, and the terrestrial and telestial kingdoms stagnant while one of your quotes has those in outer darkness devolving back into raw material and loss of identity (difficult to reconcile with the teaching that resurrection is a permanent, unchangeable state; also something that I think would be dangerous to preach in our day and age when depression and despair are prevalent enough that those in such states might find a sort of hope in the idea of an eternal cessation of consciousness and therefore act to "obtain" said cessation).

[Anddenex]

I really like the scripture verse you quoted from regarding "sphere" of truth. I think that is the best way to describe truth.

First, I find it humorous when anti-_____ try to use statements from previous leaders in order to prove contradictions within the Church and a specific principle. Second, we also know that every apostle and prophet were men and were given the intelligence (just like us) to think upon and try to discover truth. I personally love how open they were able to speak. How open they were able to share their ideas that they felt were true. This is unlike today, where our apostles and prophets are very conscientious of what they say due to anti-____. We have so many people now who are looking for anything and everything to make an attack -- to make an offender for a word/phrase.

The whole concept of "eternity" (neither created nor made) and eternal progression (the capabilities of our next life) are as you have shared at the end, "All truth is independent in that sphere in which God has placed it."

There are three concepts that appear to contradict in these quotes (at least in the context provided):

1. We are all going to continue learning

2. The Gods had all knowledge and would not need to continue to learn and progress.

3. The sons of perdition will dissolve back and lose their identity

The teachings from #1 and #2 seem to contradict at face value; however, we already know that when we die we will continue to progress and learn into the eternities. This though does not mean those who are already Gods (i.e. God the Father and Jesus Christ). I doubt when I die that I will have come to the same knowledge God the Father already has. I think I will be learning well into the eternities. This seems to give evidence for #1.

God the Father gives evidence for #2, and Joseph Smith quoted by Joseph Fielding Smith would be evidence to how God progresses (and potentially how we will progress also at some point). Or we will progress both ways at the same time.

Number 3, is the only one that is new to me. I have never read this before regarding the sons of perdition. Always some new principle in the Journal of Discourses that makes you go "Hmmmmm". LOL

What I wish I could do is have a good one-on-one with these previous leaders and asking them more in depth questions so they could expound on these teachings. I would love to pick their brains further, because I know I have thoughts as to how and what I currently perceive to be true or potentially true. I just wish I could hear more of these type of thoughts from our current apostles and prophets, but unfortunately, we live in another day and time where anti-____ are looking for anything they can -- even when they say its their opinion -- the monkeys come out on that "shista" real quick and start flinging.

As you, I don't see any contradictions. I would love more context to the quotes as stated in the previous paragraph.

[mikbone]

As long as your progression hasn’t been damned, the possibilities are endless.  Of course with greater progression more responsibility must be shouldered.

D&C 76:45-46 Trumps any commentary about the suspected possible future of the Sons of Perdition.

Edited January 8 by mikbone

[CV75]

2 hours ago, laronius said:

In doing some web surfing concerning the topic of eternal progression I came across a website that was not particularly supportive of the Church so I won't reference it but it was pointing out what it claimed to be conflicting LDS views of what eternal progression meant. Here are the quotes:

“All organized existence is in progress, either to an endless advancement in eternal perfections, or back to dissolution… Nothing less than the privilege of increasing eternally, in every sense of the word, can satisfy the immortal spirit. If the endless stream of knowledge from the eternal fountain could all be drunk in by organized intelligences, so sure immortality would come to an end, and all eternity be thrown upon the retrograde path.” (Brigham Young, “Life and Death, Etc.”, Journal of Discourses, vol. 1, pp. 349-353, July 10, 1853.)

Wilford Woodruff wrote in his journal (spelling intact):

“I attended prayer meeting in the evening Circle. President Young asked Elder Orson Pratt what He thought of his preaching that intelligent beings would continue to learn to all Eternity. O. Pratt said that He believed the Gods had a knowledge at the present time of evry thing that ever did exhist to the endless ages of all Eternity. He believed it as much as any truth that he had ever learned in or out of this Church. President Young remarked that he had never learned that principle in the church for it was not taught in the Church for it was not true. It was fals doctrin For the Gods & all intelligent Beings would never scease to learn except it was the Sons of perdition they would continue to decrease untill they became dissolved back into their native Element & lost their Identity.” (Wilford Woodruff’s Journal, Vol. 4, pp.401-402, February 17, 1856).

Joseph Fielding Smith: “The Book of Moses informs us that the great work of the Father is in creating worlds and peopling them, and “there is no end to my works, neither to my words,” he says, “For behold, this is my work and my glory—to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man,” and in this is his progression.

“Commenting on this the Prophet Joseph Smith has said: ‘What did Jesus do? Why; I do the things I saw my Father do when worlds come rolling into existence. My Father worked out his kingdom with fear and trembling, and I must do the same [that is Christ must do the same]; and when I get my kingdom. I shall present it to my Father, so that he may obtain kingdom upon kingdom, and it will exalt him in glory. He will then take a higher exaltation, and I [Christ] will take his place, and thereby become exalted myself. So that Jesus treads in the tracks of his Father, and inherits what God did before; and God is thus glorified and exalted in the salvation and exaltation of all his children.’

“Do you not see that it is in this manner that our Eternal Father is progressing? Not by seeking knowledge which he does not have, for such a thought cannot be maintained in the light of scripture. It is not through ignorance and learning hidden truth that he progresses, for if there are truths which he does not know, then these things are greater than he, and this cannot be. Why can’t we learn wisdom and believe what the Lord has revealed? (Doctrines of Salvation, Vol.1, p.7)

 

That's the end of the quotes and I apologize for the length but I wanted to be thorough. I'm not sure if the Church has an "official" position on this topic but to me personally I don't think these differing viewpoints have to conflict. Maybe only one of them is right but maybe D&C 93:30 applies here in that "All truth is independent in that sphere in which God has placed it..." with one viewpoint correct within one "sphere" and the other viewpoint correct within a different "sphere." Thoughts?

I think they would all agree that progress entails more than added knowledge. I prefer to use “experience.” I think that early in the Restoration, so much spiritual knowledge came forth so quickly, this aspect of spiritual life took center stage. But there are many kinds of knowledge and many things to do with them as time and eternity roll on as we, even God, experience them. For example, with regards to His work and glory, more is better, and He gets it!

[zil2]

This quote from Elder Neal A. Maxwell is one of my favorites related to this topic:

Quote

Those who try to qualify God’s omniscience fail to understand that He has no need to avoid ennui by learning new things. Because God’s love is also perfect, there is, in fact, divine delight in that ‘one eternal round’ which, to us, seems to be all routine and repetition. God derives His great and continuing joy and glory by increasing and advancing His creations, and not from new intellectual experiences.

There is a vast difference, therefore, between an omniscient God and the false notion that God is on some sort of post-doctoral fellowship, still searching for additional key truths and vital data. Were the latter so, God might, at any moment, discover some new truth not previously known to Him that would restructure, diminish, or undercut certain truths previously known by Him. Prophecy would be mere prediction. Planning assumptions pertaining to our redemption would need to be revised. Fortunately for us, however, His plan of salvation is constantly underway—not constantly under revision. …

In a very real sense, all we need to know is that God knows all!

All These Things Shall Give Thee Experience [1979], 14–15, 21

[Ironhold]

Pro tip: if you see a critical source use ellipses (the little "..." you sometimes see in quotations) when referencing something that was ostensibly said by a church leader or presented in official material, find the original citation and read it in full. 

Critics of the church - and others - frequently play games with people by using ellipses to change the context of various citations. 

In one extreme situation I personally encountered, a critic took two paragraphs from one of Young's sermons that were talking about unrelated topics, inverted their order, and used ellipses to stitch them together as if they were all about one single thing. When I pointed out what she'd done and showed everyone the real citation, she tried to do a "my bad" and then couldn't understand why no one would trust any of her citations until we saw them for ourselves.