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mtkat

Is there a lesson on infidelity in Priesthood?

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I am sorry to post here, I just wondered if there was ever a lesson or talk given to the priesthood about infidelity that was wrong even if it did'nt lead to sex. My husband has done this and acts like nothing happened even though he tried his best to get the woman to have sex with him and take"their relationship" further.

The biggest hurt for me, as his wife, is that he doesn't seem to realize how broken I feel and wants to "move forward" and pretend like it didn't happen.

Everything I find only really talks about the sex act itself as being wrong ,. Can anyone help me to show my husband that even the emotional betrayla and the fact that he confided in this woman about OUR sex life and relationship and the fact that he told her he loved her was wrong and hurtful too?

He says he knows it was wrong, but it could have been worse.

Also, the whole time he was wearing his garments and praying with me every night and morning and all, & I- Does anyone have ANY insight on HOW he could do this?

And do you think he could do it and still love me? He says he DOES love me but also that he doesn't love me the way a husband should love a wife, but he still wants to be intimate and also says he'd be jealous if another man showed interest in me- isn't that the way a husband loves a wife? And he said if he loved me the right way, he wouldn't have done this to us.

Please refer me to any talks artcilces or lessons that might help us. Thank you.

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Relationship counselling..

he doesn't love me the way a husband should love a wife,

The guilt thing of "If I loved her in the right way, how could I do that," sounds as though he is a bit shattered by it. He needs help for that. The act of betrayal is not the beginning of it.

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No priesthood holder in this Church can play stupid on the subject of unfaithfulness to his spouse.

Matt 5:28: 'But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.'

This verse is often found in every lesson on the subject of chastity. I have heard it time and time again in Church lessons for the past 30 years.

I'll tell you how he could have done this: He is a low down dirty dog. Get over it.

Now this doesn't mean this can't be fixed. This doesn't mean he will never be straightened out and you will never have him to be a good husband again. Follow whatever counsel you receive from the Bishop. Be an example of charity and love and don't let anger get the best of you.

God Bless

-a-train

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In addition to the advise people would give you on this thread, I'd suggest you get a lawyer too. Unrepentant sinners of this stripe could do more than wreck a marriage, they can also rob you blind and dump you into poverty.

Are there children involved? If so, think of their best interests as well.

Good luck - let us know how things go.

LM

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No priesthood holder in this Church can play stupid on the subject of unfaithfulness to his spouse.

Matt 5:28: 'But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.'

This verse is often found in every lesson on the subject of chastity. I have heard it time and time again in Church lessons for the past 30 years.

I'll tell you how he could have done this: He is a low down dirty dog. Get over it.

Now this doesn't mean this can't be fixed. This doesn't mean he will never be straightened out and you will never have him to be a good husband again. Follow whatever counsel you receive from the Bishop. Be an example of charity and love and don't let anger get the best of you.

God Bless

-a-train

i can agree with all said but what i bolded. "get over it" is a bit cold for the situation. in my opinion.

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yes we all have to "get over" some things. there is a time and a place for that. not usually day one. she has a right to be upset right now, he seems to be refusing to admit that anything wrong was done to begin with. that isn't the time to "get over it". when he tries to get things right and do right by her then it's time, or if they divorce over this it will be time. but right now she has a right to her hurt, frustration and anger. she has a right to feel the way she does, to say get over it suggests she does not, that she is the one at fault. that's cold and in my opinion isn't helpful. no one is compleatly innocent of any situation they find themselves in. there are almost always, "i could have done better...." i'm sure there are things both need to do differently. but there is a huge difference in being an imperfect person that is learning and growing as you go along and outright sin. what he did is a sin reguardless of how good a wife she may be, or how many mistakes she has made. there are times when "cold" or "straight up" or "bold" or "frank" methods are needed when speaking to someone. there are also times and ppl that should be doing that, a marriage counselor or very very close friend for example.

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I'm sure there is a lesson on that in priesthood, but it doesn't sound like it would sink in with your husband since he's so set on being right. It's all about intent. If that woman had consented, your husband would've committed adultery. Not having the opportunity doesn't excuse that.

Please remember that we are required to forgive, but you can forgive and give consequences. My friend struggled with her husband for years as he cheated on her and she finally had to say, "I love you, but you are hurting me and I can't let this go on anymore." She is an amazing, forgiving woman and she still hurts over this sometimes. It's hard to explain to their three boys why they're not together anymore. He never even said sorry to her, but his new wife passed on how horrible he felt.

I told my husband that if he cheated on me, I would have to leave. Risking my health, life, and fertility is where I draw the line. My friend's mom got Chlamydia from her husband. There are some STD's that silently wreak havoc on your reproductive system.

Have you talked to your bishop about this? If so, what did he have to say about it?

Finding out you've been betrayed is like suffering a death. "Get over it" is not helpful or compassionate. :(

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That is unfortunate and I am sorry for your family. The very next thing that absolutely needs to happen after he tells you is....you both go to the bishop. You will get a feel for his level of repentance by his willingness to confess and move past it in the righteous way the Lord has perscribed.

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I would think that if it went down as you say it did, that at the VERY LEAST he should have gone before a bishop's council. He should have his priesthood tried.

Perhaps that's why I'm not in a position to do that anymore.

But that's my 2 cents worth.

If you love him, you'll need to pray to be able to forgive and FORGET, and he'll need to show true repentance, otherwise, you are wasting good time with a looser.

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Also, as has been mentioned,

The scriptures are clear...

He that looketh upon a woman to lust after her hath already committed adultery in his heart.

"Thou shalt not commit adultery, NOR ANYTHING LIKE UNTO IT."

I'd say that includes pornography, masturbation, kissing someone not his wife, fondling someone not his wife etc...

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tell him to read the book titled "Miracle of Forgiveness" by Spencer W. Kimball.....and after he has read it...ask him if he still feels the same way. One other thing....if I was his Bishop, I would want to know he did this and that he thinks its not a big deal....he and I would have a nice long chat.....:)

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Sometimes cold is necessary. She's not going to be able to get past this if she continues to dwell on it. She will have to get over it if she's to heal.

What? Are you kidding? He hasn't apparently even repented!

'Unfaithful' means as much, if not more, the betrayal of personal trust than it does in having sex with someone else. He should be excommunicated. But, from what I've seen, too often priesthood leaders don't do this in many cases when they should. And, if they ever do much of anything, they delay greatly doing it. (Justice delayed can be justice denied).

"Hypocrite" means 'actor'. If he prayed with you while he cheated on you, he was 'acting' as if he were being righteous, when, apparently, indeed (or 'in deed') he was NOT!

Talk to your bishop or stake president ASAP. Find a good divorce lawyer. Get rid of (in your life) the scum bag.

Jason, how many things has your wife had to 'get over'.

A few years ago, in my business, a supplier messed up. He didn't deliver goods as promised when he promised he'd have them to me. It messed me up a bunch. But he told me, "I'm moving on (or 'forward'), so you need to too!"

Baloney! That's another way of saying, "I'm not changing, so you just live with it or get use to it!"

I won't do business with that jerk again. And you shouldn't share your bed or life with that jerk anymore!

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I have read several threads lately where someone has done someone else wrong. I always find it amazing how quick to judge most people here are. It's like we never read the scripture "Judge not lest ye be judged with that same judgement."

Now I realize that the OP's are seeking comfort and advice, but, really, we don't know their situations except for what is posted here. I for one am not gonna tell someone that they MUST do this or NEED to do that.

The funny thing to me is that at different times in my life I have been the scum bag, the loser, the unrepentant sinner, and the low down dirty dog. And if people had treated me as such where would I be today? I refer you to the blog I posted with a quote from Elder Jeffrey R. Holland.

Blogs » don t beat up the swimmer » Mormon LDS Network: Mormon Chat, Forums, Mormon Beliefs, Mormon Faith, Mormon Blogs, Social, Profiles, Videos, Music

Thank you for you time.

Now return to doing whatever it is that you do.

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Slow your roll there bucko :)

If all things are as they have been typed, there has been no physical adultry, even if there was the first option is almost ALWAYS repentance and forgiveness. Read your D&C.

Lawyers are out of the question til you need one. they always muck things up. However, someone needs to go to the bishop ASAP. It just shows him something if its the sinner doind it rather than the spouse. And as alwys, trust in the Lord and not the internet :)

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I think you need to talk to your Bishop or branch president about your concerns. I don't think a public forum is the place to air this type of thing.

You also may want to pray and see if you have forgiven him? You may have not forgiven him I know he is the wrong but we are taught to forgive.

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Also, the whole time he was wearing his garments and praying with me every night and morning and all, & I- Does anyone have ANY insight on HOW he could do this?

I can tell that seems hypocritical to you, but maybe wearing his garments helped him stop himself once or twice from going even farther than he did. Although he has sinned a serious sin, you can't go finding fault with his keeping other commandments and calling him a hypocrite. Every one of us does some good things and some bad things.

And do you think he could do it and still love me?

He says he DOES love me but also that he doesn't love me the way a husband should love a wife, but he still wants to be intimate and also says he'd be jealous if another man showed interest in me- isn't that the way a husband loves a wife? And he said if he loved me the right way, he wouldn't have done this to us.

Yes I do think he could still love you. I think he could be really struggling with what he's done and his own feelings about it.

You probably don't want to hear this, but you should not be passing judgment on your husband as to whether he has repented sufficiently. I know you want to feel comfortable in trusting him again, but you can't force it. Let him know you lost trust in him and it will take time to get it back, but don't preach at him to try to get him to realize how wrong it was. That's not what he needs. He knows it was wrong. Be patient as he works to earn back your trust. Realize that you were not the only victim here- he was also the victim of his sin- in my opinion, he was the primary victim of his sin, and he needs you to forgive him and love him as Christ does, now more than ever.

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My X did the same thing. We almost divorced when my 2nd child was a baby. I thought he had changed and learned his lesson. Umm nope..his attitude was the same as your husbands. I found out years later and 3 kids later that he was doing the same thing. I also found a hotel receipt. He excused it as she didn't show, I was extreamly guilty..blah..blah..blah. After that I filed for divorce he was not going to change and I couldn't help him by loving him.

It was a hard thing to do. My 4 yr old was not 2 even and she to this day askes me to tell her the story of why her dad and I got divorced. Course I won't tell her. It has been tuff on my kids.

I have since remarried to a wonderful man, I never dreamed being married could be like this.

Would I do it again. No..If I had to do it again I would of never married him

I love my DH so much. I never thought it was possible to be so happy.

Your DH needs help. Have you talked with your Bishop?

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What? Are you kidding? He hasn't apparently even repented!

'Unfaithful' means as much, if not more, the betrayal of personal trust than it does in having sex with someone else. He should be excommunicated. But, from what I've seen, too often priesthood leaders don't do this in many cases when they should. And, if they ever do much of anything, they delay greatly doing it. (Justice delayed can be justice denied).

"Hypocrite" means 'actor'. If he prayed with you while he cheated on you, he was 'acting' as if he were being righteous, when, apparently, indeed (or 'in deed') he was NOT!

Talk to your bishop or stake president ASAP. Find a good divorce lawyer. Get rid of (in your life) the scum bag.

Jason, how many things has your wife had to 'get over'.

A few years ago, in my business, a supplier messed up. He didn't deliver goods as promised when he promised he'd have them to me. It messed me up a bunch. But he told me, "I'm moving on (or 'forward'), so you need to too!"

Baloney! That's another way of saying, "I'm not changing, so you just live with it or get use to it!"

I won't do business with that jerk again. And you shouldn't share your bed or life with that jerk anymore!

"KingDavid", I hope you take to heart what we've been saying in the posts since yours. Do you really want to make the judgment call that the betrayal of personal trust in this case warrants excommunication on the spot? Many, many people have violated personal trust in different cases in their lives, whether it was the intent to be unfaithful to a spouse, or some other situation. Yes this was a serious breach of trust, but I know I have my own sins, and you probably have your own sins, for which we hope that the Lord will show mercy on us- mercy that we don't deserve, but he gives to us anyway.

We're all hypocrites if we use the definition you're using. We all (hopefully) try to be righteous even though we really aren't. Don't be so quick to dole out justice without mercy - you don't want to have the same handed back to you.

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"KingDavid", I hope you take to heart what we've been saying in the posts since yours. Do you really want to make the judgment call that the betrayal of personal trust in this case warrants excommunication on the spot? Many, many people have violated personal trust in different cases in their lives, whether it was the intent to be unfaithful to a spouse, or some other situation. Yes this was a serious breach of trust, but I know I have my own sins, and you probably have your own sins, for which we hope that the Lord will show mercy on us- mercy that we don't deserve, but he gives to us anyway.

We're all hypocrites if we use the definition you're using. We all (hopefully) try to be righteous even though we really aren't. Don't be so quick to dole out justice without mercy - you don't want to have the same handed back to you.

ztod,

Both scripturally and in personal experience, I've seen the truth that "mercy cannot rob justice" nor "justice rob mercy", each and all have their appropriate claim.

Based upon what the starter of this thread gave, and only that, it appeared that her husband was totally unrepentant. If the man had shown true remorse for his sin, then I would probably advise her to possibly reconsider. I have seen neighbors, relatives, and others who have gone through these types of things.

Do I have my sins? Absolutely. Am I sorry for them and working to repent of them? Indeed I am. Do I yearn for mercy for myself, more than justice? Yes. But if most in a Church or a nation are unfaithful, and want others to wink at their indiscretions RATHER THAN REPENT, that is what I am gathering many posters here seem to be suggesting, I am adamantly opposed at concealing sins by either the offending or offended party, and leaving unrepented sins unrepented of (poor grammar, but you get the point).

I am for repentance. But I am for true repentance, not just feigned (pretended). And if there is no sorrow for sin, there is no repentance.

What do you think Isaiah meant, speaking for the Lord, when he wrote this—

"...thou art obstinate, and thy neck is an iron sinew, and thy brow brass"? —Isaiah 48:4

You know, don't you, that that scripture is addressing MEMBERS OF THE CHURCH!?! And, from the description he gives, the people he is referring to aren't only "cool cucumbers", they are COLD individuals. They don't turn their head, they don't raise an eyebrow, implying "It's not that big a thing. Lots of people (even other members of the Church do it). Why all the fuss? Look at me, I'm unruffled by this!"

The problem was prevalent in the time of Jeremiah (Lehi). Jeremiah wrote for the Lord—

7 How shall I pardon thee for this? thy children have forsaken me, .... when I had fed them to the full, they then committed adultery, and assembled themselves by troops in the harlots' houses.

8 They were as fed horses in the morning: every one neighed after his neighbour's wife.

9 Shall I not visit for these things? saith the LORD: and shall not my soul be avenged on such a nation as this?

—Jeremiah 5:7 - 9

And why did the Lord say this of our day?

And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold. —Matthew 24:12

Hardened. The individual committing the sin hardens themselves. They don't repent, and thereby harden themselves even further. The love they had of a spouse, previously, hardens. Just like a woman in our ward (who still attends church) whose teenage daughter will not speak to her, because she has abandoned her husband for a lover (and so many don't even trade "up", the fools mostly all trade "down" big time)! So, yes, the affection of even children is hardened, as they try to protect their tender hearts from further disappointment and jarring.

I have long been against divorce, and largely remain so. But since my early years, I have seen so many, many of the Saints who have been unfaithful to each other in their marriages. Nephi's younger brother, Jacob, pointed out this Nephite sin in just the 2nd generation in their new promised land. And, he pointed out, too, the faithful hearts of their sworn enemies, the Lamanites, in regards to their wives and children. I do not doubt that this is one of the big reasons why the Nephites were ultimately destroyed (among others).

Forgiveness is not automatic. And, I believe that a spouse can forgive their spouse something at times, and not have to necessarily remain married to them. I do not advocate it per se. But I have seen people forgive ex-spouses, but not stay with them or remarry them.

Yes, to some extent or another, all of us are hypocrites. But that fact does not justify other things. Too many spouses who cheat do it again. I would recommend forgiving them and staying with them if they are sorrowful about their sin, and work to repent. But if they are totally or mostly unrepentant, I see no obligation whatsoever, nor wisdom, for a spouse to continue to abide with that kind of a situation. Do you?

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I think the behavior of this man and his denials and justifications are big giant red flags!! I doubt this will be the last time. I think you should protect yourself now. I am afraid there will be a next time....and maybe that will result in bigger sins. Seems to me that the ones who justify are usually the ones who will up the ante. And if he doesn't feel any resistance from you. Or he succeeds in guilting you for calling him on his stuff, then he will just do it again. Protect yourself.

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dont run to the lawyers. they are usually the last steps you want if you want to reconcile.

However, you should definitely be talking with your Bishop and your husband. No priesthood holder should be doing such a thing.

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Sorry for my delay in replying..

...

Based upon what the starter of this thread gave, and only that, it appeared that her husband was totally unrepentant.

Yes, but all I was saying was that I wouldn't be comfortable making the judgment call that he deserves to be excommunicated.

...

Do I have my sins? Absolutely. Am I sorry for them and working to repent of them? Indeed I am. Do I yearn for mercy for myself, more than justice? Yes. But if most in a Church or a nation are unfaithful, and want others to wink at their indiscretions RATHER THAN REPENT, that is what I am gathering many posters here seem to be suggesting, I am adamantly opposed at concealing sins by either the offending or offended party, and leaving unrepented sins unrepented of (poor grammar, but you get the point).

Yes I see your point. I don't think she should "wink" at his wins- she should definitely let him know that he has violated her trust and needs to work to earn it back. I guess she could also let him know that she would like to see him show more remorse, if that would help her.

But part of my point I was trying to make is that his repenting is not just for her sake, or even mainly for her sake- I think it is mainly for his own sake, and she should try to leave it up to him and the Lord, and perhaps the bishop, as to whether he has repented sufficiently. That's a slightly different issue than whether he has earned back her trust sufficiently.. although they are certainly related. And of course, we are all required to forgive no matter what. That just has to do with letting go of hateful, hurtful feelings and grudges.

The thing is, her husband didn't come on here asking for advice. She did. So it wouldn't help for us to tell her that he needs to repent more. She can't control that. So she shouldn't base her forgiveness on that. He knows he needs to fully repent- I just don't think she can help him with that by preaching to him about it or by punishing him somehow.

...

I am for repentance. But I am for true repentance, not just feigned (pretended). And if there is no sorrow for sin, there is no repentance.

What do you think Isaiah meant, speaking for the Lord, when he wrote this—

"...thou art obstinate, and thy neck is an iron sinew, and thy brow brass"? —Isaiah 48:4

You know, don't you, that that scripture is addressing MEMBERS OF THE CHURCH!?! And, from the description he gives, the people he is referring to aren't only "cool cucumbers", they are COLD individuals. They don't turn their head, they don't raise an eyebrow, implying "It's not that big a thing. Lots of people (even other members of the Church do it). Why all the fuss? Look at me, I'm unruffled by this!"

I'm sorry, it just seems that you're passing judgment on someone and that should be the lord's job..

...

Yes, to some extent or another, all of us are hypocrites. But that fact does not justify other things. Too many spouses who cheat do it again. I would recommend forgiving them and staying with them if they are sorrowful about their sin, and work to repent. But if they are totally or mostly unrepentant, I see no obligation whatsoever, nor wisdom, for a spouse to continue to abide with that kind of a situation. Do you?

No, probably not.. I just hope we can all show some love and patience if those who have offended us are working to become better. I just always want to be able to give people the benefit of the doubt that they are able to change. People need to be supported in their efforts to make mighty changes of heart.

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Sorry for my delay in replying..

Yes, but all I was saying was that I wouldn't be comfortable making the judgment call that he deserves to be excommunicated.

ztodd, I said (or meant) that, IF all she said was true, and there were no other mitigating circumstances or unstated pertinent facts, it appeared that that (excommunication) would be appropriate. That judgement is always left to priesthood leaders (biship's courts or high council courts).

Yes I see your point. I don't think she should "wink" at his wins- she should definitely let him know that he has violated her trust and needs to work to earn it back. I guess she could also let him know that she would like to see him show more remorse, if that would help her.

But part of my point I was trying to make is that his repenting is not just for her sake, or even mainly for her sake- I think it is mainly for his own sake, and she should try to leave it up to him and the Lord, and perhaps the bishop, as to whether he has repented sufficiently. That's a slightly different issue than whether he has earned back her trust sufficiently.. although they are certainly related. And of course, we are all required to forgive no matter what. That just has to do with letting go of hateful, hurtful feelings and grudges.

I've known cases where spouses sinned, and there was no apparent remorse for their sin. I have seen other cases where there was apparent remorse. If someone has sinned grevously (adultery is grievous) and feels or acts as if they feel no compunction for their sin, divorce seems, to me, as the only way (if there is any way) to "wake" such an individual up to reality.

Their "forgiving" is a different matter from necessarily putting up with a spouse's cheating.

I don't mean to offend you, but you sound as if this is a personal matter of your own. I hope not. But I couldn't stand by and see someone I cared about especially, almost act indifferent to such wrong behavior by a spouse. You talk of forgiveness so glibly and easily as if one just "does it" and its over. And that spousal cheating just comes with being married. That's the kind of "winking" at behavior that is tied to many in Catholicism and also to the Victorian age in many respects. It's the kind of "boys will be boys" laid-back attitude where infidelity isn't only minimized, it is even expected and full anticipated.

In regards to the adulteress that the men wanted to stone, I believe that Jesus knew that she was sorry for what she did and wanted to repent. I can't believe that Jesus would "wink" at a person who was more of a harlot in attitude (ready to "do it" again), but one, rather, who not only to preserve her life, but to change it, was sorry.

If my wife cheated on me, I wouldn't take it in any sort of a "ho-hum", shrug the shoulders way. If it went the other way (and I cheated on her), I would not expect her to take it mildly or matter-of-factly.

Your recommended response, however, to me, appears to call for just such a response.

I've seen what infidelity has done to friends and relatives. I've seen people be emotionally crushed by it. And one reads, often enough, where one or the other resort to murder or suicide due to it.

I've seen many of these same friends and relatives who did forgive. A few appeared to have truly repented. The vast majority, sooner or later, went back to their wayward ways.

If a spouse is remorseful and willing to repent, I would recommend working with them and trying to forgive them. But if the sinner is unrepentant, though I may forgive them later, that does not mean one is obligated, nor even that it would be prudent, to remain married to them.

The thing is, her husband didn't come on here asking for advice. She did. So it wouldn't help for us to tell her that he needs to repent more. She can't control that. So she shouldn't base her forgiveness on that. He knows he needs to fully repent- I just don't think she can help him with that by preaching to him about it or by punishing him somehow.

You say "He knows he needs to fully repent..." - Are you her spouse? Nothing in what she said even hints at your assumption.

I'm sorry, it just seems that you're passing judgment on someone and that should be the lord's job.

Ultimately, it is the Lord's job. But, haven't you read where the Savior pointed out that the saints will (even) judge angels? They will, ultimately, judge all the people of the earth.

"Passing judgement" is something that must be done in life. Priesthood leaders are responsible for what they do (or don't do) in "passing judgement" on church members in regards to their standing in the Church. In matters regarding remaining married in the case of infidelity, one must "pass judgement" on one's spouse. This is NOT merely spilled milk. Nor is it just "water under the bridge". Nor just a "check that one off the experience" type of a thing. We're talking about the most fundamental and important relationships, and how one should handle them.

If it were my daughter, or my niece, or my sister, I would give the same advice I've given. If you gave such advice as you are advocating here, I would be surprised and perhaps even ashamed were you my brother telling family members what you appear to be saying. I hope I am merely misunderstanding what you are advocating. But I fear that I am not.

No, probably not.. I just hope we can all show some love and patience if those who have offended us are working to become better. I just always want to be able to give people the benefit of the doubt that they are able to change. People need to be supported in their efforts to make mighty changes of heart.

We are all ABLE to change. That is not the issue. It is whether or not this woman's husband is WILLING (even WANTING) to change. I too try to give all others the "benefit of the doubt". But, lets not be naive and stupid. There are many cases where sinners in these situations are and remain totally unrepentant. They are more sorry for being caught doing wrong than for doing wrong.

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