In the Garden of Eden…

[carlimac]

Why would God tell Adam and Eve to go multiply and replenish the earth if they couldn’t in the Garden anyway? 

[mikbone]

7 hours ago, carlimac said:

Why would God tell Adam and Eve to go multiply and replenish the earth if they couldn’t in the Garden anyway? 

They were given conflicting commandments that required Adam and Eve to embark on mortality of their own free will.

This prevents humanity from arguing that we didn’t agree to this mortal probation.

Edited May 17, 2024 by mikbone

[zil2]

Just because they couldn't in the Garden of Eden doesn't mean they couldn't.  The Lord wanted them to multiply and replenish the earth and left it to them to figure out how.  My personal theory is that they would have eventually learned more from God, had Satan not intervened, and then they could have made the choice - stay in the Garden, unable to multiply, or choose to fall.  In my observation from scripture, God waits for his children to ask rather than just dumping information on them, so I assume eventually Adam and Eve would have asked.

[laronius]

All of us are under the same commandment the moment we are born (or at least have reached the age of accountability, depending on how you want to look at it). But obviously the time for fulfilling that commandment is not until a later date, after we are far more prepared to keep it.

[Carborendum]

1 hour ago, carlimac said:

Why would God tell Adam and Eve to go multiply and replenish the earth if they couldn’t in the Garden anyway? 

You have to remember that while the story is true, the version we have is not about literal facts, but about the symbolism, the metaphors, etc.  The Garden is a metaphor for childhood and the pre-earth life.  It is the heaven we came from and the state of innocence of childhood.

As both pre-embodied spirits and as children, we cannot procreate.  But we are supposed to accept our missions into mortality and grow into adulthood.  Then we can procreate.

The symbols of the fruit, the fall, and the casting out of the garden are the whips and scorns of time shoveled upon us in this flawed mortal realm.  We need to learn to deal with them.  These were not "punishments."  They were the realities of life.  And when we come to understand what pain is, we realize that to alleviate pain is good.  And to cause pain is evil.  Thus, we have knowledge of good and evil.  We know how to cause or prevent it.  And we know when we are subject to or protected from pain.

Even the pronouncement of multiplying Eve's sorrow in childbirth was not a punishment. It was laying out the reality that it would happen.  Do we really believe that we would have mortal bodies that would not experience pain?  But beyond labor pains, it was also an acknowledgement that as when was pregnant (and even during the nursing period) she would be vulnerable and hampered in all that she did.

This was all part of the plan.  And to pronounce these in metaphorical terms indicates that it was not a decree.  It was an education and a preparation for things to come.

[zil2]

23 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

Even the pronouncement of multiplying Eve's sorrow in childbirth was not a punishment.

Nibley's take on this was that the word used meant not "increase in intensity" but "multiply in number" - in other words, Eve would have children over and over - many children - literally, multiply to replenish the earth.

[Carborendum]

18 minutes ago, zil2 said:

Nibley's take on this was that the word used meant not "increase in intensity" but "multiply in number" - in other words, Eve would have children over and over - many children - literally, multiply to replenish the earth.

Multiply compared to what?

And it was "multiply thy sorrow", not "multiply thy births".

Edited May 16, 2024 by Carborendum

[zil2]

12 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

Multiply compared to what?

And it was "multiply thy sorrow", not "multiply thy births".

Just telling what Nibley had to say.  Genesis wording (and Moses):

Quote

I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception. In sorrow thou shalt bring forth children...

...which suggests both.  But multiply doesn't mean amplify, rather, it means repeat or increase in number.  IMO, Eve's sorrow was not amplified - "instead of normal child-bearing sorrow, I'm giving you extra child-bearing sorrow 'cuz you sinned" - it was multiplied - repeated  - "you will have many children and each will be borne in a degree of sorrow, cuz that's how it is with child-bearing in mortality".  The sorrow is multiplied (not amplified) by virtue of the fact that it's repeated with each pregnancy and birth.

[Carborendum]

14 hours ago, zil2 said:

Just telling what Nibley had to say.  Genesis wording (and Moses):

...which suggests both.  But multiply doesn't mean amplify, rather, it means repeat or increase in number.  IMO, Eve's sorrow was not amplified - "instead of normal child-bearing sorrow, I'm giving you extra child-bearing sorrow 'cuz you sinned" - it was multiplied - repeated  - "you will have many children and each will be borne in a degree of sorrow, cuz that's how it is with child-bearing in mortality".  The sorrow is multiplied (not amplified) by virtue of the fact that it's repeated with each pregnancy and birth.

I spent some time thinking about this last night.  I suppose a good counter to my question is "what does multiply mean in my interpretation?"  I've come up with some answers, but they are not very satisfying.

So, yes.  I suppose, it simply means that there is going to be a lot of it.  But that fits with my overall interpretation as well.  The message being: life is hard.  And for women, even more so.  Female vulnerability is greater than that of men.  Fact of life.  And there are many such situations where that principle applies.  Females are not as physically strong or fast as men. 

There is some evidence that points to women having greater endurance.  But when considering the physicality of men in sports (especially now with trans athletes) I think that argument is falling apart.  However, it does appear that for differing situations and different aspects, women can have greater endurance.  So, in the endurance department, we appear to be different, but equal -- much like most of life.

Edited May 17, 2024 by Carborendum

[CV75]

22 hours ago, carlimac said:

Why would God tell Adam and Eve to go multiply and replenish the earth if they couldn’t in the Garden anyway? 

He is the Eternal Optimist, and He knew it could be done. And He was right!

His eternal perspective certainly has something to with it; both they and we have a veil of forgetfulness, a dark glass to see through, and eyes that can behold the future only when (if) quickened.