The Riddle of Steel.

[mikbone]

I love old movies.

Conan the Barbarian 1982 is a classic.  Great origin story, good battles, mythology, triumph of good over evil, revenge, awesome soundtrack etc.  

Anyway, in the movie there is an underlying profound question that is posed but not answered - the riddle of steel.

"Crom is strong! If I die, I have to go before him, and he will ask me, 'What is the riddle of steel?' If I don't know it, he will cast me out of Valhalla and laugh at me." ~Conan the Barbarian

He is taught this riddle at a young age by his father who is a blacksmith.  Unfortunately, after his village is raided, his father is killed and he never is told the answer and has to learn the answer on his own.

The following is his fathers presentations of the riddle.

Fire and wind come from the sky, from the gods of the sky. But Crom is your god. Crom, and he lives in the earth. Once, giants lived in the Earth, Conan. And in the darkness of chaos, they fooled Crom, and they took from him the enigma of steel. Crom was angered. And the Earth shook. Fire and wind struck down these giants, and they threw their bodies into the waters, but in their rage, the gods forgot the secret of steel and left it on the battlefield. We who found it are just men. Not gods. Not giants. Just men. The secret of steel has always carried with it a mystery. You must learn its riddle, Conan. You must learn its discipline.

But his father does give him a hint.

“No one, no one in this world, can you trust,” he says. “Not men, not women, not beasts.” Pointing to his sword, he concludes, “This you can trust.”

So what is the answer?

Its philosophical.  I think I know the answer.  

You should probably go watch the movie.  

Any views?

Edited June 3, 2024 by mikbone

[Phoenix_person]

Rise, my brothers, we are blessed by steel....

[Carborendum]

On 6/2/2024 at 7:15 AM, mikbone said:

So what is the answer?

The answer was in the movie.  But few recognize it because it is not given as a question until Conan meets Thulsa.

Notice that "the riddle of steel" is never a question.  It is a name only.  One cannot answer a question when no question has been asked. No one actually asks the question until Conan confronts Thulsa. 

Quote

What is steel compared to the hand that wields it?

A "riddle" is not a question/answer like a catechism.  It is a mystery proposed for conjecture.

We tend to think of tools as being powerful.  But who made that tool?  A man.  Who uses that tool for a purpose?  A man.  

What is man without the sword?  Weak.  What is the sword without the man?  A piece of metal.  Combine the metal with the will of a man commanding the strength of his arm and together, they are formidable.

That understanding is the answer to the riddle of steel.

Edited June 3, 2024 by Carborendum

[Vort]

2 hours ago, Carborendum said:

The answer was in the movie.  But few recognize it because it is not given as a question until Conan meets Thulsa.

Seems like James Earl Jones was portraying his near-namesake Jim Jones in beckoning a young woman to her death to illustrate the riddle of steel. Thulsa's solution to the riddle of steel—"flesh is stronger than steel"—ends up being something like: Control, not physicality, is power. Or in more LDS-friendly terminology: Being a thing to act is more powerful than simply being a thing to be acted upon.

Edited June 3, 2024 by Vort
Edited for clarity

[mikbone]

I like that the riddle is not answered.  It lets everyone choose their own answer.

Steel is a truly a wonder.  It can be hard, durable, hold an edge, while still being flexible and it has amazing tensile strength.

In ancient time, it took a master blacksmith to create and work steel.  Carbon must be incorporated into iron and the steel must be worked into a tool (in the case of Conan) a sword.

The process requires heating at such a high temperature that charcoal must be sourced just to make the forge hot enough.  Then the blacksmith must work the metal with a hammer over and over to fold, form, and pound the carbon into the iron. Finally, a sword must be quenched in liquid to harden the edge producing a magnificent tool.

The riddle of steel can be applied to a man as well. 

Through trials of pressure, heat, and working from the master blacksmith the spirit and body of a man can be forged in the same way.  

Ether 12:27 And if men come unto me I will show unto them their weakness. I give unto men weakness that they may be humble; and my grace is sufficient for all men that humble themselves before me; for if they humble themselves before me, and have faith in me, then will I make weak things become strong unto them.

God (Crom in the case of Conan) allowed Conan to be fired, worked, and hardened into a powerful tool.  

Conan’s nemesis Thulsa Doom thinks that he has figured out the riddle but he is wrong.

Conan beats Doom in the conclusion of the movie.

Thulsa Doom is like Satan, he had become an overlord via death, conquest, lies, etc.

Yet Conan with his own strength (endowed by Crom’s guidance) and the help of a few friends is able to beat Doom.

Who was stronger?  

Conan the Barbarian turns out to be a Christ figure. And thats why the movie works.  It’s not the violence or the nudity (totally unnecessary).  

The writer of the script knew what he was doing or was inspired.  Conan is crucified.  He sees angels.  He prays to Crom.  And the Satan imagery of Thulsa Doom is obvious to everyone.

Joseph Smith figured out the Riddle of Steel.  It was a hard lesson.

D&C 122:6 If thou art accused with all manner of false accusations; if thine enemies fall upon thee; if they tear thee from the society of thy father and mother and brethren and sisters; and if with a drawn sword thine enemies tear thee from the bosom of thy wife, and of thine offspring, and thine elder son, although but six years of age, shall cling to thy garments, and shall say, My father, my father, why can’t you stay with us? O, my father, what are the men going to do with you? and if then he shall be thrust from thee by the sword, and thou be dragged to prison, and thine enemies prowl around thee like wolves for the blood of the lamb;

7 And if thou shouldst be cast into the pit, or into the hands of murderers, and the sentence of death passed upon thee; if thou be cast into the deep; if the billowing surge conspire against thee; if fierce winds become thine enemy; if the heavens gather blackness, and all the elements combine to hedge up the way; and above all, if the very jaws of hell shall gape open the mouth wide after thee, know thou, my son, that all these things shall give thee experience, and shall be for thy good.

Maybe Heavenly Father has a little bit of Crom in him.

Edited June 3, 2024 by mikbone

[Carborendum]

On 6/3/2024 at 9:56 AM, mikbone said:

Steel is a truly a wonder.  It can be hard, durable, hold an edge, while still being flexible and it has amazing tensile strength.

In ancient time, it took a master blacksmith to create and work steel.  Carbon must be incorporated into iron and the steel must be worked into a tool (in the case of Conan) a sword.

The process requires heating at such a high temperature that charcoal must be sourced just to make the forge hot enough.  Then the blacksmith must work the metal with a hammer over and over to fold, form, and pound the carbon into the iron. Finally, a sword must be quenched in liquid to harden the edge producing a magnificent tool.

Here are the interesting parts of steel's metallurgy.

The base metal, iron, is nothing remarkable.  It is largely corroded when it is mined.  The very fact that people realized that it had potential says something about human ingenuity.  During the refining process, additional chemicals are added to extract the oxygen from the rust allowing a greater amount of iron to be smelted.  They had already had some practice in this regard from the copper age.

Then they had to figure out how to introduce higher levels of carbon to the alloy. 

Iron as a metal is very hard and strong compared to earlier metals.  But it is prone to brittle behavior.  It was through careful observation that the accidental introduction of carbon to the iron rendered a bit more durable steel.  Notice I said "durable", not "flexible."  Flexibility is a layman's term that can mean a few different things that do not lineup with a specific metallurgical property.  Because of that, iron can be considered to be more flexible than steel (and vice-versa).

• Iron requires less force/stress to cause it to deflect a specified distance.
• Steel can withstand a greater deflection before reaching fracture.
• Steel has a higher spring constant than iron.

Increasing carbon content was a difficult process.  Early attempts rendered Damascus Steel, which was a marvel for the time.  But it is fairly common to have better properties of steel today.

A note about quenching.

When the steel has been worked, the act of bending, pounding, etc. causes the steel to go beyond the "elastic limit." It also helps to evenly distribute the carbon into the gaps in the steel.  And, if it s done at the right temperature, it will make the steel stronger through a process known as "work hardening" (aka "strain hardening").

Much of metallurgy is discovered by trial and error.  And humans have found that small amounts of carbon will fill in gaps in what would be iron alone.

As the metal cools, there is a tendency for carbon atoms to seek each other out.  They will begin to move out of the gaps and form clumps.  Big enough clumps will actually make it more brittle.  At the same time iron micro-integrity is weakened if cooled with a high enough temperature differential.

• If they quench too early, the cooling will cause the iron links to break.
• If they quench too late, the carbon will form clumps causing the steel to be brittle. 
• If they quench at just the right time, it will allow the iron to maintain integrity while trapping the carbon in solution.

This is one of those things in nature that I believe balances too perfectly (the Goldilocks point) to have been completely random.

Edited June 11, 2024 by Carborendum

[NeuroTypical]

On 6/3/2024 at 6:54 AM, Carborendum said:

What is man without the sword?  Weak.  What is the sword without the man?  A piece of metal.  Combine the metal with the will of a man commanding the strength of his arm and together, they are formidable.

I totally missed this thread until just now, but I was actually pondering similar things yesterday.  Years ago we acquired a massively well built solid wood bookcase from a moving ward member.  It would have been heirloom quality, but it had not been well cared for.  Still, it was probably the most sturdy thing we owned, and it did 15 years in our basement carrying heavy basement things.  Time to part with it.  Even though it could easily outlive me, it's too damaged for Goodwill/DI, and I know of nobody who wants a heavy ugly bookcase, especially when walmart sells cheap particle board things for under thirty bucks.  

I thought about how to dispose of the massive sturdy thing.  I'd injure myself trying to kick it apart.  Dropping it from a helicopter would just dent the ground.  The reciprocating saw would do it, but it had plenty of metal holding it together which I might hit with the blade.  I'm in my 50's, back problems, 3 shoulder surgeries behind me.  Getting too old for this stuff. 

So I picked up the old 8 lb forged steel sledge hammer I inherited from my father, and in 5 minutes I had a glorified pile of toothpicks.   Honestly, lifting the heavy pieces into the garbage cans was the hardest part.

 

[Vort]

2 hours ago, Carborendum said:

Here are the interesting parts of steel's metallurgy.

The base metal, iron, is nothing remarkable.  It is largely corroded when it is mined.  The very fact that people realized that it had potential says something about human ingenuity.  During the refining process, additional chemicals are added to extract the oxygen from the rust allowing a greater amount of iron to be smelted.  They had already had some practice in this regard from the copper age.

Then they had to figure out how to introduce higher levels of carbon to the alloy. 

Iron as a metal is very hard and strong compared to earlier metals.  But it is prone to brittle behavior.  It was through careful observation that the accidental introduction of carbon to the iron rendered a bit more durable steel.  Notice I said "durable", not "flexible."  Flexibility is a layman's term that can mean a few different things that do not lineup with a specific metallurgical property.  Because of that, iron can be considered to be more flexible than steel (and vice-versa).

• Iron requires less force/stress to cause it to deflect a specified distance.
• Steel can withstand a greater deflection before reaching fracture.
• Steel has a higher spring constant than iron.

Increasing carbon content was a difficult process.  Early attempts rendered Damascus Steel, which was a marvel for the time.  But it is fairly common to have better properties of steel today.

A note about quenching.

When the steel has been worked, the act of bending, pounding, etc. causes the steel to go beyond the "elastic limit." It also helps to evenly distribute the carbon into the gaps in the steel.  And, if it s done at the right temperature, it will make the steel stronger through a process known as "work hardening" (aka "strain hardening").

Much of metallurgy is discovered by trial and error.  And humans have found that small amounts of carbon will fill in gaps in what would be iron alone.

As the metal cools, there is a tendency for carbon atoms to seek each other out.  They will begin to move out of the gaps and form clumps.  Big enough clumps will actually make it more brittle.  At the same time iron micro-integrity is weakened if cooled with a high enough temperature differential.

• If they quench too early, the cooling will cause the iron links to break.
• If they quench too late, the carbon will form clumps causing the steel to be brittle. 
• If they quench at just the right time, it will allow the iron to maintain integrity while trapping the carbon in solution.

This is one of those things in nature that I believe balances too perfectly (the Goldilocks point) to have been completely random.

Great write-up. Nephi was enough of a metallurgist to recognize on sight (at night, no less) that Laban's sword was made of very fine steel—fine for the time, that is. Modern steel would doubtless have been tougher and maybe harder, certainly of much higher purity. Nephi's obvious metallurgical knowledge and ability to refine and alloy other metals, including gold but also copper to make bronze, perhaps even iron to some degree, marks Nephi (IMO) as a smith. In my own private intracranial Book of Mormon movie, Nephi at twelve is already apprenticed for some years to a smith and has gained a lot of facility in the smithy (shop). So he's able to identify fine steel on sight. When God tells him to build a ship, Nephi is immediately aware of the need for tools and how he has to find copper and zinc and other ores to make a durable bronze for creating woodworking tools, a thing which probably would not have occurred to me or to most other people who haven't worked with metal as a smith.

[Carborendum]

32 minutes ago, Vort said:

Great write-up. Nephi was enough of a metallurgist to recognize on sight (at night, no less)

Not necessarily.

It is easy for a lay person to know the difference on sight.  We are so used to steel in the modern age that we don't recognize the difference between brass or bronze -- they are very similar alloys.  And some bronze alloys look a lot like copper to the untrained eye.  But to a people where most of the metals they saw were copper-based, it was easy to tell the difference.

As for iron vs steel, there is a very easy way to tell.  Iron simply cannot maintain integrity under a certain thickness.  It is just too brittle.  And a sword made of iron would necessarily have to have dull edges.  If you've ever compared the difference in thickness of a cast-iron frying pan vs a carbon steel frying pan, there really isn't a comparison.

Higher grades of steel tend to be somewhat corrosion resistant.  But not entirely so.  They would have to have some oil applied to them regularly to prevent rust.  But cast iron needs to be blackened to preserve it -- otherwise, the iron would rust straight through with only mildly humid conditions.    And higher carbon steels tend to be more corrosion resistant stiill.  It is possible that bronze or copper was added to the mix to become a somewhat-stainless steel.  But that would be very difficult because they have such different  melting temperatures. 

32 minutes ago, Vort said:

that Laban's sword was made of very fine steel—fine for the time, that is.

Probably.  But there is some dispute about that.  The phrase "the most precious steel" could mean one of two things:

• Of all the steel types, this sword was of the most precious of all steel alloys and craftsmanship.
• Of all metals, steel is the most precious (because it was so labor-intensive that only the most skilled smiths could forge it properly).  And this sword was made of steel.

So, if the former is the intended meaning, then this was probably made of wootz steel (precursor to Damascus steel) which was available around Nephi's era.  It is no wonder Lehi was so wealthy if they knew how to forge steel and utilize Wootz ingots properly.

32 minutes ago, Vort said:

Nephi's obvious metallurgical knowledge and ability to refine and alloy other metals, including gold but also copper to make bronze, perhaps even iron to some degree, marks Nephi (IMO) as a smith. In my own private intracranial Book of Mormon movie, Nephi at twelve is already apprenticed for some years to a smith and has gained a lot of facility in the smithy (shop). So he's able to identify fine steel on sight. When God tells him to build a ship, Nephi is immediately aware of the need for tools and how he has to find copper and zinc and other ores to make a durable bronze for creating woodworking tools, a thing which probably would not have occurred to me or to most other people who haven't worked with metal as a smith.

Talk of all these alloys is making me think of Minecraft.  Curse my wife for getting me addicted to that stupid game!!!

Edited June 11, 2024 by Carborendum

[mikbone]

20 hours ago, Vort said:

Great write-up. Nephi was enough of a metallurgist to recognize on sight (at night, no less) that Laban's sword was made of very fine steel

I have been impressed that Adam was taught how to forge steel while in the Garden of Eden.  

I’m pretty sure that the Brother of Jared was a smith as well.  If you can make glass you can make steel.

Ether 2:14 And it came to pass at the end of four years that the Lord came again unto the brother of Jared, and stood in a cloud and talked with him. And for the space of three hours did the Lord talk with the brother of Jared, and chastened him because he remembered not to call upon the name of the Lord.

Jesus Christ has many names.  Maybe one of those is Crom.

Most people read Ether 2:14 and surmise that the Brother of Jared got an epic tongue lashing.  A tremendous amount of information can be transferred in a three hour span by an intelligent and prepared teacher.  No doubt there was some chastisement but that was likely a small percentage of the discussion.

Edited June 12, 2024 by mikbone

[Carborendum]

2 minutes ago, mikbone said:

If you can make glass you can make steel.

I don't see any mention of forging or melting anywhere.  What's to say he didn't find naturally occurring glass and simply polished them?  That was done historically.

Beads, anyone?

[mikbone]

5 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

I don't see any mention of forging or melting anywhere.  What's to say he didn't find naturally occurring glass and simply polished them?  That was done historically.

Beads, anyone?

Ether 3:1 and did molten out of a rock sixteen small stones; and they were white and clear, even as transparent glass

[mikbone]

I see many apologists trying to explain how how words like steel in the scriptures are not correct.  Because everyone thinks that the ancients were much less educated then us.

Noah and Nephi both got extended instruction from the Lord as well.  

I take Nephi at his word about steel.

[Carborendum]

51 minutes ago, mikbone said:

Ether 3:1 and did molten out of a rock sixteen small stones; and they were white and clear, even as transparent glass

Ah.  Good point.  "Molten" threw me off.

41 minutes ago, mikbone said:

everyone thinks that the ancients were much less educated then us.

It's a pretty safe assumption.  But then again, I see the bolded words above written by a medical doctor.  

I'm actually going to assume that the "molten" he refers to had to include going to a place where lava was prevalent.  Not all lava flows require an active explosion.  There are active lava flows.  There are many properties of quartz (which is more naturally prevalent than glass) that make it easy to place into a lava flow and resist a high level of mixing.  Then he just needs to polish it.

(This could spark a whole new thread of having to go to hell and back to get those stones.)

But this would not work as easily with metals.

Edited June 12, 2024 by Carborendum

[mikbone]

17 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

I'm actually going to assume that the "molten" he refers to had to include going to a place where lava was prevalent.  Not all lava flows require an active explosion.  There are active lava flows.  There are many properties of quartz (which is more naturally prevalent than glass) that make it easy to place into a lava flow and resist a high level of mixing.

You can come up with any interpretation you wish.

Ether 3:3 O Lord, look upon me in pity, and turn away thine anger from this thy people, and suffer not that they shall go forth across this raging deep in darkness; but behold these things which I have molten out of the rock.

The Brother of Jared not only repeats himself concerning the molten process.  I sense that he was proud of his work and wanted Jehovah to appreciate his solution to the darkness problem

 

[Carborendum]

1 minute ago, mikbone said:

The Brother of Jared not only repeats himself concerning the molten process.

Yes.  And why do you think the word "molten" was used (twice)?  At the time of translation, that word only referred to metals, not stones.  The only time it was applied to stones was where lava was involved.

I understand that anyone may make any interpretation that they wish. But there must be some kind of rhyme or reason to it.

If the only explanation you can give for your position is "because...God," then show me where God taught them that.  Absent that, your position is not supportable.

[mikbone]

57 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

Yes.  And why do you think the word "molten" was used (twice)?

Probably because it is the word that Joseph Smith used in translation.

I keep the Websters 1828 dictionary app on my phone just for this purpose

MOLTEN, pp. of melt. Melted.

1. a. Made of melted metal; as a molten image.

[mikbone]

My 5th child just got a job @ the Pennsylvania Irvin Steel Works plant of US (Nippon) Steel.

I was today years old when I learned that coke is purified from coal, very similar to how charcoal is produced from wood.

It makes it hard porous and almost pure carbon that burns freakin hot.

 

Edited June 13, 2024 by mikbone

[Vort]

1 hour ago, mikbone said:

coke is purified from coal

Which accounts for both the color and the taste.

[Carborendum]

6 hours ago, Vort said:

Which accounts for both the color and the taste.

Is that Classic or New?

[Carborendum]

On 6/12/2024 at 8:14 AM, mikbone said:

If you can make glass you can make steel.

You may be right.  The Jaredites did know how to forge steel.  I stand corrected.  Here's the story:

I spoke to a glass blower about this claim about melting glass vs steel.  He said "yes and no."

• The textbook melting temperature of silica is higher than that of iron or steel.
• A way to "cheat" is using a type of flux.  This is a substance that will act similar to a catalyst and lower the melting temperature of the substance at hand.

It was well known that they discovered an effective flux for glass (3rd millennium BC) long before they discovered flux for steel.

Could Mahonri have known about silica flux?  Possibly.  But regardless of that, there is another thing going on with steel.

Apparently, the earliest people who made steel were not the ones who made Damascus steel.  The Hittites who lived around the time of the Tower of Babel/Jaredites are now believed to be the first peoples to have forged steel --not just iron, but steel. 

And linguists have analyzed Jaredite names and have discovered remarkable similarities to Hittite names.

Edited February 13 by Carborendum

[mikbone]

4 hours ago, Carborendum said:

Could Mahonri have known about silica flux?

Sure

Potash (K2CO3) is relatively easy to produce.

Process:

1. Collect Hardwood Ash: Gather ash from burned hardwoods. Avoid softwoods like pine, as they contain lower potassium levels.

2. Leach the Ash: Place the ash in a large container and add boiling water. Let it soak for 24 hours.

3. Filter the Solution: Pour the liquid through a fine cloth or filter to remove solid ash particles. The remaining liquid is “lye water” containing dissolved potassium carbonate.

4. Evaporate the Water:  Boil the lye water until the liquid evaporates, leaving behind dry potash crystals.

5. Purify (Optional): You can refine the potash by dissolving it in a smaller amount of water, filtering again, and re-evaporate.

Pure silica melts at 3092 F

Adding potash can reduce the melting temperature to around 1832-2192°F, depending on the ratio used.

Melting point of iron is 2,800 F

[Emmanuel Goldstein]

On 6/3/2024 at 8:56 AM, mikbone said:

I like that the riddle is not answered.  It lets everyone choose their own answer.

 

Steel, well used is able to remove evil from the earth. Notice that Conan removed Thulsa from the earth, using a broken sword.