Defending the Faith

[mrmarklin]

"As man now is, God once was: As God now is, man may become".

God came to earth as Jesus, a man.  Now that Jesus has resurrected, we also may become resurrected, through Him.

That is the layman interpretation.  

Of course, us LDS interpret it a little differently.

[Vort]

  On 7/8/2024 at 7:59 PM, HaggisShuu said:

This verse just seems so, trinitarian.

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I agree with this. If you have a Trinitarian background, Alma does sound Trinitarian. I believe that is due to prejudice and expectation rather than the actual doctrine taught, however.

[Traveler]

  On 7/10/2024 at 10:34 PM, Vort said:

I agree with this. If you have a Trinitarian background, Alma does sound Trinitarian. I believe that is due to prejudice and expectation rather than the actual doctrine taught, however.

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Actually, it fits well with ancient Hebrew expressions and is proof that the Book of Mormon is an ancient document translated by Joseph Smith.   The Book of Mormon is written in Egyptian (reformed) but with Hebrew expressions.  The Hebrew word “ehad” is translated as one in English but it is a plural term that designates many united as one.  The word “yhead” is the Hebrew word to designate a single individual.  Both are translated into English (and many other languages) with the word one and does not specify a difference.  The word “ehad” is also used to describe a marriage before G-d as one.  Thus, the meaning of marriage is not just a union between a man and a woman but also with G-d – or more properly G-ds.

 

The Traveler

Edited July 16, 2024 by Traveler

[mordorbund]

  On 7/8/2024 at 6:03 PM, HaggisShuu said:

I agree with you in practice that we are monotheist. But monotheism (according to my understanding) is one God, one who receives our worship. Which ignores the teachings of the prophets. Which is why personally why I would lean towards monolatry or henotheism - which I understand to be defined as, many Gods may exist, but there is only one who is relevant enough for us to worship - as I only worship Heavenly Father as he is my spirit Father and creator

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Monolatry and henotheism also come with polytheism baggage and can only be adopted by recontextualizing beyond the point of most discussion. Israel’s god, Jehovah, will fight their battles and defeat the armies of Baal, the Canaanites, or the armies of Ra, and so on. These gods each champion their own lands and their own peoples. Without redefining the terms, saying Latter-day Saints are henotheists suggests we believe there is one god over the US, one over Canada, another over Australia (wait, this is making so much sense now), and so on. A looser interpretation might be that there is one god over the Christians, one over the Jews, another over Muslims, Buddhists get one too, and so on.

Applying these terms to Latter-day Saints because Abraham has earned his exaltation and is a god is like trying to apply physical laws to a multiverse—that is outside of our observation and revelation. If instead we prefer these terms because the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Ghost is God, then I don’t think we need to abandon the monotheist moniker since Trinitarians cling to it as well.

7 statements most Christians agree on Trinitarians and others (moralism is generally considered heresy, but it is what most people learn first)):

1. The Father is God

2. The Son is God

3. The Holy Ghost is God

4. The Father is not the Son, and the Son is not the Father

5. The Son is not the Holy Ghost and the Holy Ghost is not the Son

6. The Holy Ghost is not the Father and the Father is not the Holy Ghost

7. There is one God / God is one

Reconciling the last statement with the other 6 is where all the credal feuding comes from.

  On 7/8/2024 at 7:59 PM, HaggisShuu said:

The Godhead as I understand it are all separate beings united in one purpose

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You may want to look into Social Trinity if you’re still researching terms.

[mikbone]

I don’t get super worked up about the definations of words.  Im a concept and works guys.

I’ll tell you what though.

When I pray, I pray to the Father.

During the Sacrament I think about Jesus Christ. 

And I know when I feel the Holy Ghost.

Edited July 23, 2024 by mikbone

[Traveler]

  On 7/23/2024 at 4:48 AM, mordorbund said:

Monolatry and henotheism also come with polytheism baggage and can only be adopted by recontextualizing beyond the point of most discussion. Israel’s god, Jehovah, will fight their battles and defeat the armies of Baal, the Canaanites, or the armies of Ra, and so on. These gods each champion their own lands and their own peoples. Without redefining the terms, saying Latter-day Saints are henotheists suggests we believe there is one god over the US, one over Canada, another over Australia (wait, this is making so much sense now), and so on. A looser interpretation might be that there is one god over the Christians, one over the Jews, another over Muslims, Buddhists get one too, and so on.

Applying these terms to Latter-day Saints because Abraham has earned his exaltation and is a god is like trying to apply physical laws to a multiverse—that is outside of our observation and revelation. If instead we prefer these terms because the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Ghost is God, then I don’t think we need to abandon the monotheist moniker since Trinitarians cling to it as well.

7 statements most Christians agree on Trinitarians and others (moralism is generally considered heresy, but it is what most people learn first)):

1. The Father is God

2. The Son is God

3. The Holy Ghost is God

4. The Father is not the Son, and the Son is not the Father

5. The Son is not the Holy Ghost and the Holy Ghost is not the Son

6. The Holy Ghost is not the Father and the Father is not the Holy Ghost

7. There is one God / God is one

Reconciling the last statement with the other 6 is where all the credal feuding comes from.

You may want to look into Social Trinity if you’re still researching terms.

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I have posted a number of times that despite what @mikbone claims – word do matter (see last conference talk – Sunday morning by Ronald A. Rasband).

The Hebrew word always used for “one” G-d is the exact same word used to designate “one” to describe the individuals (many) involved in a divine marriage.  The word person has some troubling extensions of meaning.  For example we can define one person (singular) with multiple person”alities”.  Because multiple persons can be defined for a single individual this word “person” has ambiguity – one reason that I personally do not like the Trinity Creeds. The word “individual” – especially with the adverb “unique” as a modifier is entirely unambiguous, in my opinion.  If the one G-d (monotheism) is the intent of a single unique individual then our LDS theology is false (in my mind).  Note that Celestial Glory requires marriage, which also implies that there is at least a Mother in Heaven that explains why men and women are created in the image and likeness of G-d.

Even the term G-d or g-d has some ambiguity (especially in English) as to plurality.  I would point to the ancient Middle Eastern Suzerain Vassel treaties that define “Kingdoms”.  Please note that the society of heaven over which The Father resides is called a “kingdom” and that the organization here on earth is called both “the church of G-d” and “The Kingdom of G-d”.  Also note that sacred scripture refers to Satan as the g-d of this world (which world has been overcome through Christ).  I honestly do not understand how a knowledgeable person (individual?) can claim that they are Jewish or Christian that is monotheistic.  

I think that @HaggisShuu  is spot on with his assessment and understanding and specific intend (not extension) of the term “monolatry” and that others are relying on extreme extensions rather than obvious intension of word definition (keeping in mind that context is an important part of word meaning and points to intented meaning).

 

The Traveler

[mikbone]

  On 7/23/2024 at 8:42 PM, Traveler said:

I have posted a number of times that despite what @mikbone claims – word do matter (see last conference talk – Sunday morning by Ronald A. Rasband).

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I didnt say they dont matter.  Just that I’m a concept guy.

My wife is an English major so we occasionally will have differences of options.

Words are inaccurate and a moving target.  Definitions are always changing.

And ‘pictures are worth a thousand words.’

ER docs always try to describe fractures to me and I always just stop them.  Just give me the name and Ill look up the film.  It will save so much time.

Its like the blind men describing an elephant’s parts.  

Hopefully the Adamic language is more concrete, accurate and poetic.

[HaggisShuu]

  On 7/23/2024 at 4:48 AM, mordorbund said:

Monolatry and henotheism also come with polytheism baggage and can only be adopted by recontextualizing beyond the point of most discussion.

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I don't agree, Jehovah is described regularly as "The most high God" and Numbers 14:21 "But as truly as I live, all the earth shall be filled with the glory of the Lord" additionally Psalm 47 is very clear about God being king over all the earth. Old testament scripture makes it clear, there is only one God of this world and that is Heavenly Father. 
 

But are there others in the spirit world, or distant corners of the universe for example? There isn't much revelation on the subject. 
 

In my mind, I believe God the Father, Jesus Christ and the Holy Ghost are separate beings as taught to me by the missionaries. I believe God is married to an Exalted woman - my Heavenly Mother - I believe that God is an exalted man, which logically leads onto the idea that we have Heavenly Grand parents too. 
 

The equation just doesn't add up to monotheism. Basing this argument in scripture is pointless because we could both cherry pick verses to justify our own opinions on the subject. But the church teaches each of the things I mentioned in the last paragraph, as the church receives more scrutiny and more unjustified ridicule in these last days, claiming "actually we're monotheists" feels like denial. Maybe monolatry and henotheism aren't the right words, but monotheist isn't either, and personally by accepting that, I'm "owning" who I am and the beliefs I hold. 
 

If I'm wrong I will gladly take a seat and be correctly educated on the last day. But personally labelling myself a monotheist doesn't compute for me. That's not to say everybody else is wrong and I'm right - far from it - it's just the only lens I've been able to make these doctrines make sense to me and preserve a little sanity. 

Edited July 24, 2024 by HaggisShuu

[mikbone]

  On 7/23/2024 at 8:42 PM, Traveler said:

I have posted a number of times that despite what @mikbone claims – word do matter (see last conference talk – Sunday morning by Ronald A. Rasband).

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