Questioning doctrine

[the_jason]

There seem to be a lot of threads these days about people questioning certain doctrines of the Church, even questioning books of scripture. I understand that this site has great missionary possibilities, and I also understand that we are to allow people of other faiths to express their own opinions. I don't have a problem with those things. What I do have a problem with is coming in here every day to find that a new thread has been started in which the truths which I hold dear are called in to question. If I were to start a thread about how the Qu'ran (sp) is flawed or how the Pope is a fraud, I'd be reprimanded. Yet, nothing seems to be done about people who question the beliefs of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

To those who post these types of things: if you don't believe our teachings that's fine. Just keep it to yourself. I don't believe your teachings either, but you don't see me starting threads about how your beliefs are wrong. We are all entitled to believe what we want to believe, even if it's viewed as wrong.

To the admins of this site: Can anything be done to cut down on this, for lack of a better word, crap?

[WillowTheWhisp]

If people have genuine questions which we can answer and perhaps enlighten them on something they may have misconceptions about then I think it's valid.

If they are just posting criticism for the sake of tearing the Church to shreds then you have a point.

[Guest sunny-fibi]

It also seems like someone never asks a question to learn. They're always "asking" as if to say " see? you're wrong because of what I found." Leave us alone. If you have a sincere question, study the scriptures and pray to find out for yourself. No one is more reliable that Heavenly Father.

[Rize]

To those who post these types of things: if you don't believe our teachings that's fine. Just keep it to yourself. I don't believe your teachings either, but you don't see me starting threads about how your beliefs are wrong. We are all entitled to believe what we want to believe, even if it's viewed as wrong.

To the admins of this site: Can anything be done to cut down on this, for lack of a better word, crap?

Isn't the point of this site to answer questions about Church doctrine, and share experiences and testimony? If people don't fully discuss and examine Church doctrine how can they ever really gain a testimony? Cutting down on questions and threads exploring Church doctrine would turn the site into a pure fluff site where people wouldn't feel comfortable asking questions. It's one thing if the question is deliberately derogatory and was framed for example like:

"Oranges are stupid and you are all idiots and vegetable lovers if you like to eat oranges for breakfast, its a satanic ploy to make you think you need vitamin C and you will burn for your belief in fruit."

There is no questioning there it is only attacking. If for example someone heard that oranges actually made you sick in the morning, talked to a doctor who agreed and wanted to know from other orange lovers what their experience was... then they should be able to. That could include serious discussion and critiques on both side done in a fair, open manner. Without threats or attacks from either side. The more tough questions asked, the more you will learn as you are forced to research and look into the issue. It works for both sides.

I hope no fruit or vegetable eaters were offended in the making of this post.

[Canuck Mormon]

If you have a problem with a thread or a poster - Report it. Click on the report button and the mods will see it and discuss it. If it crossed the line it will be dealt with. But also please have patience.

Thanks

[the_jason]

Isn't the point of this site to answer questions about Church doctrine, and share experiences and testimony?

I think you missed my point. I have no problem with questions. I love talking about the gospel, as long as the person has a genuine interest. The people I'm talking about ask "questions" that are more like accusations. They seem to be trying to prove something. They have an agenda. Contention is of the devil and I want no part of it.

I also don't feel like something needs to be officially reported before action can be taken. Anyone who reads the forums regularly knows which threads I am referring to. I guess I'm just asking for a little proactivity on the part of the staff. No news is not always good news.

[NeuroTypical]

The people I'm talking about ask "questions" that are more like accusations. They seem to be trying to prove something. They have an agenda. Contention is of the devil and I want no part of it.

You don't like contention, but unrighteous judgement is ok? Maybe some do come here with that in mind, maybe some don't. It seems a little uncharitable to assume negative motives when you're not sure. If you've got a clear cut case, use the "report post" button. Otherwise, 1 Cor 13 seems to apply. How about we thinketh a little less evil, and beareth and endureth a little more?

LDS.net, from what I can tell, is where people can come to mention church criticisms, and hear how LDS folks answer. There's a "Learn about the Mormon Church" forum that specifically states "Get your questions answered here." Again from what I can tell, people who are willing to listen to our answers are free to ask the questions. Obvious trolls, or those here to argue or advance their own understandings, get warned and removed.

There are LDS forums that might suit you more. Nauvoo.com rejects contention and does not allow questioning doctrines or scriptures. LDSFriends.com has a clearly stated rule NO bashing any church, leaders, doctrines or such..

As for contention, the devil ain't the only one who can use it as a tool.

D&C 71:7-11 "Wherefore, confound your enemies; call upon them to meet you both in public and in private; and inasmuch as ye are faithful their shame shall be made manifest. Wherefore, let them bring forth their strong reasons against the Lord. Verily, thus saith the Lord unto you—there is no weapon that is formed against you shall prosper; And if any man lift his voice against you he shall be confounded in mine own due time. Wherefore, keep my commandments; they are true and faithful."

1 Peter 3:15: "But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear:"

1 Thessalonians 5:21: "Prove all things; hold fast to which is good."

Jude 1:3: "Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints."

"Those to whom no problems occur are asleep at the wheel of truth."

John A. Widtsoe

"Though argument does not create conviction, the lack of it destroys belief. What seems to be proved may not be embraced; but what no one shows the ability to defend is quickly abandoned. Rational argument does not create belief, but it maintains a climate in which belief may flourish."

Austin Farrer, "The Christian Apologist," in Light on C. S. Lewis , ed. Jocelyn Gibb (New York: Harcourt and Brace, 1965), 26.

LM

[Rize]

I think you missed my point. I have no problem with questions. I love talking about the gospel, as long as the person has a genuine interest. The people I'm talking about ask "questions" that are more like accusations. They seem to be trying to prove something. They have an agenda. Contention is of the devil and I want no part of it.

I also don't feel like something needs to be officially reported before action can be taken. Anyone who reads the forums regularly knows which threads I am referring to. I guess I'm just asking for a little proactivity on the part of the staff. No news is not always good news.

I agree, but at the same time when I tried to point out that there was a bias in the censorship of political discourse on the site, my thread was closed. How is this thread different than my thread, which you said should be closed?

I'm not looking to create contention, I just think its in everyones interest to have a fair board with open discussion.

[Canuck Mormon]

I agree, but at the same time when I tried to point out that there was a bias in the censorship of political discourse on the site, my thread was closed. How is this thread different than my thread, which you said should be closed?

I'm not looking to create contention, I just think its in everyones interest to have a fair board with open discussion.

There was no bias, Ronmey was out. All other political contestants were and still are off limits. You were told this.

All I can say is that we are not perfect, but we are trying.

[the_jason]

You don't like contention, but unrighteous judgement is ok? Maybe some do come here with that in mind, maybe some don't. It seems a little uncharitable to assume negative motives when you're not sure. If you've got a clear cut case, use the "report post" button. Otherwise, 1 Cor 13 seems to apply. How about we thinketh a little less evil, and beareth and endureth a little more?

LDS.net, from what I can tell, is where people can come to mention church criticisms, and hear how LDS folks answer. There's a "Learn about the Mormon Church" forum that specifically states "Get your questions answered here." Again from what I can tell, people who are willing to listen to our answers are free to ask the questions. Obvious trolls, or those here to argue or advance their own understandings, get warned and removed.

There are LDS forums that might suit you more. Nauvoo.com rejects contention and does not allow questioning doctrines or scriptures. LDSFriends.com has a clearly stated rule NO bashing any church, leaders, doctrines or such..

As for contention, the devil ain't the only one who can use it as a tool.

D&C 71:7-11 "Wherefore, confound your enemies; call upon them to meet you both in public and in private; and inasmuch as ye are faithful their shame shall be made manifest. Wherefore, let them bring forth their strong reasons against the Lord. Verily, thus saith the Lord unto you—there is no weapon that is formed against you shall prosper; And if any man lift his voice against you he shall be confounded in mine own due time. Wherefore, keep my commandments; they are true and faithful."

1 Peter 3:15: "But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear:"

1 Thessalonians 5:21: "Prove all things; hold fast to which is good."

Jude 1:3: "Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints."

"Those to whom no problems occur are asleep at the wheel of truth."

John A. Widtsoe

"Though argument does not create conviction, the lack of it destroys belief. What seems to be proved may not be embraced; but what no one shows the ability to defend is quickly abandoned. Rational argument does not create belief, but it maintains a climate in which belief may flourish."

Austin Farrer, "The Christian Apologist," in Light on C. S. Lewis , ed. Jocelyn Gibb (New York: Harcourt and Brace, 1965), 26.

LM

Whoa dude! I was merely expressing a concern. If you don't share my concern then fine, but you don't have to belittle me for it. I wasn't unrighteously judging anyone. Maybe their intent isn't to contend, but there have been several threads in which that appears to be the case. And if you read other posts in this thread, I'm not the only one who feels this way. No need to attack me for expressing a concern.

[the_jason]

How is this thread different than my thread, which you said should be closed?

I never said your thread should be closed. I never even saw the thread which you were referring to. I merely explained what the rule is. If it didn't apply to then fine. I never said it did.

[Rize]

There was no bias, Ronmey was out. All other political contestants were and still are off limits. You were told this.

All I can say is that we are not perfect, but we are trying.

I know, I cited multiple cases where prior to Romney's dropping out he was openly endorsed in threads and posts, and other candidates were criticized. The thread I created that was closed was merely asking questions and broke no forum rules whatsoever, so why was it closed? But this one is not?

Then I received multiple threats from Mods and Admins about "outbursts." I only wanted an explanation and the ability to voice my concerns. Is calmly asking a rational question considered an outburst?

[Canuck Mormon]

I know, I cited multiple cases where prior to Romney's dropping out he was openly endorsed in threads and posts, and other candidates were criticized. The thread I created that was closed was merely asking questions and broke no forum rules whatsoever, so why was it closed? But this one is not?

Then I received multiple threats from Mods and Admins about "outbursts." I only wanted an explanation and the ability to voice my concerns. Is calmly asking a rational question considered an outburst?

The threads that you had questioned were started BEFORE the policy was in place. This board had merged with another and these threads were left alone when they should have been closed & deleted. Like I said, nobody is perfect. We can't tell "tone" from posts most times, so we are at a disadvantage, but we also give the benefit of the doubt.

I'm off to spend a night with my wife and celebrate our 1 year engagement anniversary.

Have a good night!!!

[the_jason]

I'm off to spend a night with my wife and celebrate our 1 year engagement anniversary.

And don't you dare come out of your room til mornin'.

[Guest sunny-fibi]

haha okay so people are attacking Jason for getting tired of certain threads. I would say that it's not a big deal. Maybe you all could calm down and realize that even you get annoyed at some of the threads. And honestly, some people DO make threads to create contention and he's just saying he's noticed it and doesn't like it. Freak out if you want but you have no reason.

[Snow]

There seem to be a lot of threads these days about people questioning certain doctrines of the Church, even questioning books of scripture. I understand that this site has great missionary possibilities, and I also understand that we are to allow people of other faiths to express their own opinions. I don't have a problem with those things. What I do have a problem with is coming in here every day to find that a new thread has been started in which the truths which I hold dear are called in to question. If I were to start a thread about how the Qu'ran (sp) is flawed or how the Pope is a fraud, I'd be reprimanded. Yet, nothing seems to be done about people who question the beliefs of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

To those who post these types of things: if you don't believe our teachings that's fine. Just keep it to yourself. I don't believe your teachings either, but you don't see me starting threads about how your beliefs are wrong. We are all entitled to believe what we want to believe, even if it's viewed as wrong.

To the admins of this site: Can anything be done to cut down on this, for lack of a better word, crap?

Okay - here's the deal.... you stop posting opinions and so will I.

Deal?

[Guest yourgirlinpink]

Jason, I agree with you. I have been going into the chat room very little because it seems that all I do in there is defend my religion, something that I hold very dear to my heart. I have noticed how many posts are trying to "Save" us. I also love sharing the gospel, and don't mind religious debate, but I don't have to prove myself, and sometimes I feel like that is what I have to do! I come to lds.net to converse with other member that share my faith, that for just a brief moment I can be among those with similar beliefs and not have to justify what I do to the world.

[Elphaba]

Okay - here's the deal.... you stop posting opinions and so will I.

Deal?

That'll be the day!

Elphie

[prisonchaplain]

While I understand The_Jason's irritation, I'm also concerned that if we become too quick to stifle potentially passionate discussion, we'll miss some golden opportunities for learning and growing. The former LDSTalk was at least a notch, if not two, more "contentious" than we are now. Some long-timers did not like certain string-types, and simply chose to avoid the areas of the site where those mostly were.

On the other hand, there were some boorish characters that probably were tolerated for longer than they needed to be. We're constantly fine tuning our balance here. On a positive note--we seem to have a lot of guests and lurkers these days--so, keep them in mind as we evaluate our own strings and those of our virtual community.

[Moksha]

I listened to this most excellent podcast tonight for those who are having questions and struggles with the Church:

Mormon Stories Podcast Mormon Stories #109: How to Stay in the LDS Church after Losing Your Faith

[Rico]

It also seems like someone never asks a question to learn. They're always "asking" as if to say " see? you're wrong because of what I found." Leave us alone. If you have a sincere question, study the scriptures and pray to find out for yourself. No one is more reliable that Heavenly Father.

A learned Christian friend I have always dealt with these type of questions from those who always asked him questions in an attempt to tear apart his faith. It seems to be a trick of Satan, Satan likes people have doubt because that is where he dwells.

His response:

"Do you really want to know the answer?" Invariably the answer would be yes and at that point they were hooked.

He then asked them, "what have you done to find out the answer?" The person would stumble.

Next, he would tell them, "If you really want to know the answer, don't you suppose you should study and find out for yourself?"

He would end it by saying, "You go and find out the answers yourself, if you are having trouble understanding them, then come back and I will help you, but I can't just give you the answers."

[NeuroTypical]

If you don't share my concern then fine, but you don't have to belittle me for it.

Absolutely nothing in my post should be considered belittling or attacking. It's just a response, followed by my reasoning. When you accuse people of having an agenda, you are unrighteously judging them. You are saying "I don't know why you're here, I don't know your heart, I don't know how earnest you are in hearing what we have to say, but I'm going to assume you have an agenda - that you are not what you claim to be."

That's unrighteous judgement. And here's why I'm reacting so strongly to it: I hang out with evangelicals, non-LDS, even strong critics of my church. Many of them voice the same complaint: They decided to give us a fair shake and tried to talk with a real mormon about what they had heard about us. They got accused of having an agenda, of misrepresenting the true reason they were here, they were called liars, wolves in sheeps clothing. Basically, they were treated uncharitably. Now they've got their justifiable reason to never look any more. They've got their valid claim against the next mormon they run into. "Yes, I see you all smiling and happy and eager to be my friend - but I know what you people are really like - I experienced it firsthand."

When we end up kneeling before the judgement bar of God, who do you think will have more explaining to do? The uncharitable mormon, or the guy who honestly came with his hat in his hand and just didn't explain himself properly?

I really, really, really do think 1 Cor 13 should be used as the guiding principle when interacting with people of other faiths - be they critic, wolf in sheep's clothing, or honest seeker of truth.

LM

[the_jason]

When you accuse people of having an agenda, you are unrighteously judging them. You are saying "I don't know why you're here, I don't know your heart, I don't know how earnest you are in hearing what we have to say, but I'm going to assume you have an agenda - that you are not what you claim to be."

Okay, once again I was merely sharing what APPEARS to be contentious. If it's truly not, then I apologize. I'm just stating what I see. My intent was not to be judgmental.

[sjdean]

You don't like contention, but unrighteous judgement is ok? Maybe some do come here with that in mind, maybe some don't. It seems a little uncharitable to assume negative motives when you're not sure. If you've got a clear cut case, use the "report post" button. Otherwise, 1 Cor 13 seems to apply. How about we thinketh a little less evil, and beareth and endureth a little more?

You're a Mormon right?

If so, I see many many different opinions and different perspectives on whether one should or should not ask questions.

A question is as it is, it is a query raised by an individual who is confused by something and Im perplexed that someone can suggest that it is of the devil or it's contention. It really grates me because instead of just answering the damn question and helping someone to answer it, it's like someone puts up a big brick wall and shuts down conversation.

I realise that there are many cultures and creeds and different takes, but, this is I hope a legitimate concern, it makes me wonder about the idea of whether at least some of these people are really being led by the holy spiirit.

It then greatly concerns me to read how some bishops or stake presidents seem to be really rather judgemental, arrogant and nasty and almost abusive of their position.

Ugh.

It concerns me about joining the Mormons. How do I know Im not going to fall in with the bad crowd. You seem to have some good views though!

[Aphrodite]

the_Jason, when people question their faith as I have, and discover things about the church that have been hidden from them, people tend to feel upset, angry and betrayed. So the tone of the posts can come across as bashing. The truth is they are probably really confused and emotional after discovering what they have and come here to get answers. It can be frustrating when they get told they are the problem, or whatever. Just as you feel some people can come across as antagonistic so can you as self-righteous :)

I came here in the first place to get answers about my problems with the temple. For some people it's not an option to pray or talk to their bishop or families, as that would mean being disowned/stigmatised or whatever. This is the only place some people can come to question and get answers.