Starship did it!

[Carborendum]

36 minutes ago, JohnsonJones said:

He doesn't have a degree in Engineering.  He isn't even educated in it.  How can he be a singular engineer without any training, education, and definitely not certified???

You seem to be selectively reading what I wrote.

36 minutes ago, JohnsonJones said:

HHe has a B.S. in Economics, but not Physics.

He has two degrees -- One in Physics, one in Economics (see the quote below).

Quote

Musk ... transferred to the University of Pennsylvania and received bachelor's degrees in economics and physics.

Elon Musk - Wikipedia

Again, selective reading.

36 minutes ago, JohnsonJones said:

On that note, I've been self-taught to be a Medical Doctor and know something of how to do Surgery...

Would you trust me with your medical health and to do surgery on you?

If you really had been self-taught to the same level as a competent surgeon then, yes.  I would. 

But we both know you don't have that level of skill.  The language you used above is a dead give away.

I've listened to dozens of interviews Musk has had in various settings about how he goes about his designs.  One can't say the things he's said without knowing what he's talking about.

36 minutes ago, JohnsonJones said:

I don't have any licenses and haven't been approved to do so....but I think I have a general idea how it works.

No, you don't have a general idea.  Nearly every licensed profession has the allowance to have unlicensed individuals work in the field.  They only have the limitation of not being able to seal or sign off on the procedures.  So, another senior employee would take that responsibility. 

The engineer's board (and I'm going to assume other licensed professional boards) also have an allowance to sit for the exam with "industry experience" without any formal schooling.  Instead of the normal years (2 to 5 years depending on the state) they are required to work in the field for 10 to 20 yrs.

36 minutes ago, JohnsonJones said:

Dogecoin creator says Musk a grifter who couldn't even run code

Hmmm...

Elon Musk Made A Video Game At Age 12 And Sold It For $500. Where Is It Now?

Zip2 | History, Mission, Elon Musk, & Facts | Britannica Money

Elon Musk's Programming-life History | In Plain English

I've never heard him claim that writing code for a cryptocurrency is one of his areas of expertise.  But I wouldn't be surprised if he could.

36 minutes ago, JohnsonJones said:

That said, I think Elon Musk is actually a genius, but not in the Scientific fields. 

Again, you don't know what you're talking about.

36 minutes ago, JohnsonJones said:

As an aside, my grandson in High School works in Python and can program in it.  He hasn't even gone to college and can do a lot of things in Python. 

This is a perfect example of someone who can become competent without any education or certifications.  And I encourage this among all people who want to get into a field that they love.

While some professions demand a license or certification, for any other field I'd say go the shortest distance between two points especially if that can eliminate the need for college.

One CAD tech that I worked with was probably the best there was.  He spent about $500 on a cheap certificate program to have "a piece of paper."  All the other drafters in the company had a 2-year CAD tech degree.  None of them could keep up with him on either the software knowledge aspect or the geometric visualization aspect.  He simply "got it" better than anyone else there.

Edited November 18, 2024 by Carborendum

[zil2]

I know nothing about Musk's computer programming skills.  I don't really care about them either.  However...  Python is a scripting language, not a programming language.  Most real programmers will look down their nose at Python.    Just because one can write code in one language, does not mean one can read code in another.  Also, you'd be shocked at just how unreadable code can be when the scripter / programmer made it unreadable either intentionally or through poor command of the skills associated with writing "good code" (crappy code can function perfectly to spec and still be crappy code).

[JohnsonJones]

20 hours ago, Carborendum said:

You seem to be selectively reading what I wrote.

He has two degrees -- One in Physics, one in Economics (see the quote below).

I believe I said that.   Who is selectively reading what now?

20 hours ago, Carborendum said:

Again, selective reading.

Again...who is selectively reading what I wrote?

Your are missing things.

20 hours ago, Carborendum said:

If you really had been self-taught to the same level as a competent surgeon then, yes.  I would. 

But we both know you don't have that level of skill.  The language you used above is a dead give away.

I've listened to dozens of interviews Musk has had in various settings about how he goes about his designs.  One can't say the things he's said without knowing what he's talking about.

I haven't.  I've read that he's kept out of the design process in Space-X, and his thoughts on the designs in Tesla have actually caused serious problems with the company.

20 hours ago, Carborendum said:

No, you don't have a general idea.  Nearly every licensed profession has the allowance to have unlicensed individuals work in the field.  They only have the limitation of not being able to seal or sign off on the procedures.  So, another senior employee would take that responsibility. 

A licensed Engineer HAS to sign off on things for many Civil and Mechanical Projects.  Sure, they can have Engineering Techs and Engineers who haven't passed the tests work under them, but a PE has to be the one who actually signs off on anything and everything.  Musk is (as far as I know) not even educated as an Engineering Tech. 

One example of his genius ideas was trying to design a sub to rescue a bunch of boys trapped in a cave.  The experts didn't accept it and rescued the boys.  Musk in retaliation tried to falsely paint one of the rescuers as a criminal (of which we won't go into detail about as it's quite grotesque).  All because his idea was deemed foolish and unreliable and Musk couldn't accept the hit to his narcissistic Ego.   That's not the sign of a great scientist, a great engineer, or even someone who is greatly educated and is still learning. 

A Surgeon can have others helping him in the surgery room.  They are also trained and normally certified by some process.  That still doesn't mean you would want me in there, no matter how much I've read, or learned (or even practiced on corpses and animals in learning environments while learning other professors and doctor's professions and emphasis of study) without me being an actual licensed surgeon.  You almost definitely don't want me AS the Surgeon. 

I'm not sure why you are so enthusiastic about Musk...but...you do you.

Most that I've known that have met him and/or worked with him do not have anything good to say about his engineering abilities (or scientific abilities for that matter) behind his back.

Have you even ever met the guy?

20 hours ago, Carborendum said:

The engineer's board (and I'm going to assume other licensed professional boards) also have an allowance to sit for the exam with "industry experience" without any formal schooling.  Instead of the normal years (2 to 5 years depending on the state) they are required to work in the field for 10 to 20 yrs.

Musk hasn't worked in the field though, and hasn't actually even had an Engineering Tech's education in it as far as I can tell.  Even his BA (not a BS) in Physics is somewhat of an enigma (as per Snopes, the degree which is supposedly a BA of Physics doesn't even show the word Physics on it from what I can tell, it shows a general degree of Arts...at least the BS of Economics shows that it's for Economics).  He couldn't muster the maths and sciences enough to even get a B.S. Degree.  This is the guy you are defending as some sort of Engineering genius?

20 hours ago, Carborendum said:

Hmmm...

Elon Musk Made A Video Game At Age 12 And Sold It For $500. Where Is It Now?

You mean this

https://blastar-1984.appspot.com/

Musk claims it is better than Flappy bird. 

My 8 year old daughter wrote a labryinth game for the Apple IIe in the 80s that I feel is better than this.  But....you do you.

20 hours ago, Carborendum said:

Zip2 | History, Mission, Elon Musk, & Facts | Britannica Money

It's hard to find information on this and what actually happened.  I do not know a ton about Zip2.  It appears it was a web based item and was programmed by software engineers, and then Musk would go back over it after they left (some say he didn't sleep all that much and would spend hours working on it).  It's main competitor was CitySearch??  That seems more of a web based search engine...or more aptly...a directory. 

If it's just a directory...I've made those for my department in regards to classes, schedules, and professors.  Probably not as complex as Zip2 or City Search (in fact, I can guarantee they weren't even a 1/100th as complex), but if that's all it was...I'm not terribly impressed that this implies he had great programming skills.  I also didn't spend 80 hour weeks making this stuff (more like one week, and then updating it once a semester).

It sold for quite a bit though, so it was something noteworthy I imagine. 

20 hours ago, Carborendum said:

Elon Musk's Programming-life History | In Plain English

I've never heard him claim that writing code for a cryptocurrency is one of his areas of expertise.  But I wouldn't be surprised if he could.

Again, you don't know what you're talking about.

Python is pretty basic from what I understand, and running it with a basic instruction of how to run a line of code is something I (who has no training in Python and is technologically illiterate from what I can tell, have actually done with one of my grandson's projects) have done. 

If he can't run that, and an technological illiterate can, I'd say the co-creator of Doge probably has a better perspective of what he's talking about (Musk brags about things to show off, but in reality doesn't have the actual skills to back some  of those items up). 

20 hours ago, Carborendum said:

This is a perfect example of someone who can become competent without any education or certifications.  And I encourage this among all people who want to get into a field that they love.

While some professions demand a license or certification, for any other field I'd say go the shortest distance between two points especially if that can eliminate the need for college.

One CAD tech that I worked with was probably the best there was.  He spent about $500 on a cheap certificate program to have "a piece of paper."  All the other drafters in the company had a 2-year CAD tech degree.  None of them could keep up with him on either the software knowledge aspect or the geometric visualization aspect.  He simply "got it" better than anyone else there.

We'll just have to agree to disagree in regards to Musk.

If you notice though, he was put in charge of D.O.G.E (funny again, how much the co-creator of Doge coin basically put Musk down)...not anything scientific. 

PS: The funniest thing about all this though, is if we go back a few years when Musk wasn't seen as a Conservative, and was seen far more liberal....were your thoughts so praiseworthy of his efforts then?  Or have they changed as his own political aspects have changed?

Edited November 19, 2024 by JohnsonJones

[Carborendum]

On 11/19/2024 at 5:01 AM, JohnsonJones said:

Quote

He has two degrees -- One in Physics, one in Economics (see the quote below).

I believe I said that.   Who is selectively reading what now?

Hmmm.. I thought you said:

On 11/18/2024 at 8:09 AM, JohnsonJones said:

HHe has a B.S. in Economics, but not Physics.

Oh, I guess you did say that.

If you are that detached from reality, that you couldn't be bothered to read what I literally quoted you as saying, I don't see the point in continuing this discussion.

Edited November 20, 2024 by Carborendum

[NeuroTypical]

On 11/19/2024 at 4:01 AM, JohnsonJones said:

if we go back a few years when Musk wasn't seen as a Conservative, and was seen far more liberal....were your thoughts so praiseworthy of his efforts then?  Or have they changed as his own political aspects have changed?

I always appreciate a question like this.  Self-check hypocrisy buffers are useful things for folks who want to open their mouths and have what flows out be useful for something besides making the grass greener.  

I think I started being a musk fan somewhere around 2015-ish, the first time I sat in a Tesla.  The more I learned, the more it looked like dude was succeeding at doing things better than the existing car manufacturers, despite the nasty suppressive efforts of the existing car manufacturers.  I've always been a fan of the little guy.  When I watched my first SpaceX booster landing in 2015, I thought it was the greatest thing I had seen from humans in the 21st century.    So yeah, upwards of a decade of appreciating the crap out of the guy.  Dude donated to Hillary in 2015, and supported her/bashed Trump in 2016.   

So yeah, I pass the hypocrisy check by one year.

[JohnsonJones]

On 11/20/2024 at 12:10 PM, Carborendum said:

Hmmm.. I thought you said:

Oh, I guess you did say that.

If you are that detached from reality, that you couldn't be bothered to read what I literally quoted you as saying, I don't see the point in continuing this discussion.

You know, my statement is right in the thread itself.  It's not hidden.  It's normally considered bearing false witness to try to do cut a statement off to try to make it appear it doesn't say what it does.

The full statement is

Quote

HHe has a B.S. in Economics, but not Physics (edit:  it's a B.A. which means less strenuous and intense classes in general for the degree).

I'm not sure how you can read that as him having only one degree.  It's a B.A. in physics.  That does not mean no degree, it means he has a B.A. in physics.  A B.S. in Economics.

However, as I said, we'll have to agree to disagree as I don't think we are going to change stances on this.  You don't have to try to say I said something different than I did to disagree with my statements though.

On 11/20/2024 at 12:46 PM, NeuroTypical said:

I always appreciate a question like this.  Self-check hypocrisy buffers are useful things for folks who want to open their mouths and have what flows out be useful for something besides making the grass greener.  

I think I started being a musk fan somewhere around 2015-ish, the first time I sat in a Tesla.  The more I learned, the more it looked like dude was succeeding at doing things better than the existing car manufacturers, despite the nasty suppressive efforts of the existing car manufacturers.  I've always been a fan of the little guy.  When I watched my first SpaceX booster landing in 2015, I thought it was the greatest thing I had seen from humans in the 21st century.    So yeah, upwards of a decade of appreciating the crap out of the guy.  Dude donated to Hillary in 2015, and supported her/bashed Trump in 2016.   

So yeah, I pass the hypocrisy check by one year.

I don't think I've ever been a Musk fan.  This is my conservative side coming out.  I have not been fond of the entire electric car push.

If one believes in the Global Climate Change (and I do to a degree, but I feel that in some ways it's overblown, a change of 1.5 degrees, to me, is not that massive.  It's the difference between 68 degrees, and 69.5 degrees.  Or 69 degrees and 70.5 degrees).  I'm not an environmental or climate change scientist though, and it may mean things far worse than I imagine or believe.

However, if one feels it's a very dangerous time and we need to act, electric vehicles do not seem to be the item that will promote change.  If one researches how the materials are made, and what goes into their creation, they are just as bad as ICE (internal combustion engines).  Furthermore, with the prices and limited range, I feel they have more limited appeal.  Finally, unless we go full nuclear or solar, they only mitigate part of the problem as their electricity is still being generated by burning carbon fuels.  The final problem is that, even if the US and Europe manage to get their carbon footprint to zero, there are many other nations in the world that will not.  Our being at zero carbon emissions does not solve the problem presented.

The limited range is one of their biggest problems.  I would have felt that a better option, if they really wanted us to go to a more electric vehicle, would have been to introduce it otherwise.  Make Hybrid vehicles and promote them far more.  They will still have the backup ICE so that range is no longer a factor, and people who enjoy the ability to drive without buying fuel could do so in their shorter distance drives.  If one were really serious about such things, pushing hard on Hybrids (I feel) would be far more effective in promoting the entire thing rather than trying to shove the entire electric vehicle idea down our throats.

Tesla has been at the forefront of the electric vehicle companies, at least in stocks and media presence.  Hence, my dislike of the entire forceful push of electric vehicles has probably had a focus on Tesla to a bit.  I am actually somewhat neutral on my thoughts regarding Elon Musk, but I've never really been one of his fans either.  He's just another person, but I have disliked some of the companies he's had (or, more specifically, Tesla).

I am not particularly impressed by his academic or technological prowess (as this thread can obviously show) but I do feel he is a genius of our day.  I think people misunderstand what his genius is in.  As I've stated, he's a genius in market manipulation and stock control.  Those in such businesses probably should be in awe of him.  He may be one of the greatest minds of our day in those areas.  I don't think he wants to present himself in that area as his genius, he wants to have people think it's in tech, but at the end of the day he's more a Ford (who is a respectable character of history) than an actual Tesla.  He's more a Steve Jobs than a Bill Gates. 

His efforts to try to paint himself as someone to be adored in Tech

I do like American made vehicles in general though, just not Teslas.  I'll take a Ford or Chevy or GM any day. 

I am open to changing my opinion (and have on occasion), but it takes something more persuasive (and things I can verify, comments from colleagues in adjoining departments make me trepidatious in regards to some of the praise Musk garners, as I've commented those in the Engineering and other departments who have had experiences with working with him...are not quite that praiseworthy of his technological know how) overall to change it than what I've had recently in regards to Musk.

I do think it's great that you have had a good opinion of him for many years and it's not due to political winds that can change on a whim.  To often I see people's opinions change (especially recently) in regards to character and ability depending on whether one is part of one political persuasion or another.  Analyzing what we think of someone beyond simple political affiliation is probably good, not just for self reflection, but on whether their political ideas actually adjoin with our own.

(PS: For example, I've been open about how Trump does not seem to follow the conservative playbook, at least during his last term.  In particularly, in regards to diminishing or reducing the budget.  He may be Republican and claim to be conservative, but he didn't really do things in a traditional conservative manner.  The budget is the clearest one I can point to in how he did the exact opposite.  I know he has an unofficial task force named D.O.G.E. which has Musk and Ramaswamy in charge of it, but there is nothing that requires anyone to actually do anything that they suggest or advise.  I think it's just something to keep Musk happy, and something Trump will use to blame Musk if the financial endeavors Trump enacts go south.  We'll see though.  Maybe Trump will be different this time around).

 

[LDSGator]

[Carborendum]

On 11/20/2024 at 1:46 PM, NeuroTypical said:

I always appreciate a question like this.  Self-check hypocrisy buffers are useful things for folks who want to open their mouths and have what flows out be useful for something besides making the grass greener.  

I think I started being a musk fan somewhere around 2015-ish, the first time I sat in a Tesla.  The more I learned, the more it looked like dude was succeeding at doing things better than the existing car manufacturers, despite the nasty suppressive efforts of the existing car manufacturers.  I've always been a fan of the little guy.  When I watched my first SpaceX booster landing in 2015, I thought it was the greatest thing I had seen from humans in the 21st century.    So yeah, upwards of a decade of appreciating the crap out of the guy.  Dude donated to Hillary in 2015, and supported her/bashed Trump in 2016.   

So yeah, I pass the hypocrisy check by one year.

Even when he was considered liberal, I didn't have much of a problem with him.  He wasn't woke. 

I thought he was fooling himself because he wanted to use the free market to build a green America.  I thought that the free market would not really tolerate what EVs will cost.  But at least he was willing to work for it.  He didn't seem to get much in the way of govt subsidies -- what he did get was a LOT less than others who didn't accomplish anywhere near as much as he did. 

He ended up having more financial success than any of the other EV companies.  I was surprised that an EV company could do so well.  I had to admit I was wrong.

I learned that he didn't do what other companies were doing in the auto market.  Everyone else just took a gas-powered car and replaced the gas engine with an electric motor and powered it with a battery instead of a gas tank.  Apparently, that wasn't the best design. 

Musk redesigned everything from scratch.  Others who tried reverse engineering the Tesla had a hard time because they couldn't make sense of it.  I saw videos of auto experts who said that it had to be a piece of junk because nothing about it made any sense.  Nothing was where it was supposed to be.  I believe I heard one say that this arrangement made it completely inefficient.

I guess they were wrong.

[Ironhold]

34 minutes ago, LDSGator said:

Imagine the dude who *delivers* those cannisters standing next to the truck while lighting up. 

I noped out of there so fast...

Edited November 27, 2024 by Ironhold