Now That Trump Has Won...

[Phoenix_person]

6 minutes ago, NeuroTypical said:

I'm thinking lots and lots of people on the left are in a peak year of several years' worth of "The Emperor Has No Clothes".   

Yep. Quite a few of us have been screaming into the void about the DNC ever since Obama left office. It's honestly kinda refreshing to see some liberals finally wake up. The crucial potential turning point will come when the next DNC chair is decided. I haven't kept up much with Martin O'Malley since I left Maryland in '06, but I generally deeply distrust Maryland Dems. Look at their district maps and you'll understand why. Ken Martin, the DFL chair in my current home state, seems to be the favorite to win among both liberals and leftists alike. If he wins, I have confidence that the DNC will get back on track. Because while he might not particularly *like* the cop-hating, billionaire-villifying, and general anti-capitalism of his home state's leftists, he knows we're a significant microcosm of the national party and the DNC needs our support more than it needs Darth Cheney.

6 minutes ago, NeuroTypical said:

They look at how scared they were during COVID.  They get embarrassed remembering how quickly they did stuff like proclaim pronouns to support weird gender theory, supported defunding the police, thinking conservatives were alt-right evil fascists, aligning with antifa and thinking our beloved institutions were full of hidden racism and needed to be burned down.   Yeah, the embarrassment grows every day they don't manage to forget what happened.

The only thing I'm embarrassed about is that we rolled with Biden 4 years ago when we could have had Warren. Though it wasn't for lack of trying on my part.

6 minutes ago, NeuroTypical said:

 people just loose some of the OOMPH behind all their yelling.

We know that as of this moment, the RNC doesn't have any more of a plan for 2028 than the DNC does. I've been saying it since 2016: Trump will be the ruin of the Republican Party. I haven't been proven right yet, but I just got a fresh set of downs, so to speak.

So yeah, we're regrouping. Because we know the next election might somehow get stupider than the last two, but we will likely have a far weaker opponent. 

[Phoenix_person]

53 minutes ago, zil2 said:

Another way of saying that might be that the people who make up the "deep state" are not the sort of people who would give up that easily.  If they appear to have backed off, it's not a good sign.

Believe it or not, there are quite a few people on my side of the fence who are trying to dismantle the "deep state" as well. As I said above, February's DNC election is potentially monumental in determining whether the path forward is decided by voters or by the donor class.

[Vort]

1 hour ago, NeuroTypical said:

They get embarrassed remembering how quickly they did stuff like proclaim pronouns to support weird gender theory, supported defunding the police, thinking conservatives were alt-right evil fascists, aligning with antifa and thinking our beloved institutions were full of hidden racism and needed to be burned down.   Yeah, the embarrassment grows every day they don't manage to forget what happened.

I don't think so. From what I've seen, there's no embarrassment or any sign of self-awareness at all.

[Vort]

31 minutes ago, Phoenix_person said:

we could have had Warren

Let's see. That's the one who tried to gain votes by pretending that she was part American Indian, right?

[NeuroTypical]

32 minutes ago, Phoenix_person said:

Darth Cheney

LOL love it!

(By the way, I had you in mind with that image I posted.  )

[NeuroTypical]

7 minutes ago, Vort said:

That's the one who tried to gain votes by pretending that she was part American Indian, right?

Well, I mean, she is.  So is just about everyone whose family has lived in the US for 3 generations or more.   Ancestry.com tells me I'm first cousins with Pocahontas for pete's sake. Just like Warren. 

Warren's problem was mindset that finding some not-mayonnaise-white blood in her ancestry was something she could white liberal virtue signal about in order to curry favor and gain votes.   Sort of like when Ross Perot tried to curry favor with black folk by signaling how he got the problems of "you people" in 1992.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FX4Jx1_ffpE

 

Edited December 4, 2024 by NeuroTypical

[zil2]

1 hour ago, NeuroTypical said:

I'm thinking the average left-leaning person could probably use a hug from right-leaning people.

Nah, they're just really busy with retail therapy before Trump's tariffs make everything too expensive.  (The ones I've encountered would sooner hug an angry porcupine as a conservative.)

[NeuroTypical]

We recently bought a used car that still had it's prior owner's XM radio subscription on it.  So in the weeks following the election, I listened to an awful lot of NPR, BBC, MSNBC, and various lesser-known left-leaning political channels.  A good 80% of what I heard was people trying to figure out where the Dems had gone wrong.  Maybe 10% of that actually were trying to find out where "we" went wrong.  

 

[Ironhold]

22 minutes ago, NeuroTypical said:

We recently bought a used car that still had it's prior owner's XM radio subscription on it.  So in the weeks following the election, I listened to an awful lot of NPR, BBC, MSNBC, and various lesser-known left-leaning political channels.  A good 80% of what I heard was people trying to figure out where the Dems had gone wrong.  Maybe 10% of that actually were trying to find out where "we" went wrong.  

 

Yeah, folks more towards the middle like myself have spent years trying to warn the Democrats "hey, these are the trends that are beginning to happen in society, and you need to make plans accordingly & shift your messages", all to no avail. 

Even actual Democrats were trying to tell the other Democrats that they needed to quit doing certain things and start talking about other things. 

But nope. Nobody listened. What we predicted would happen happened. And now the Democrats who refused to listen are all screaming their lungs out trying to figure out how everything went down. 

[Phoenix_person]

1 hour ago, Vort said:

Let's see. That's the one who tried to gain votes by pretending that she was part American Indian, right?

You voted for the guy who cheated on his wife with a p0rn star, right? Or was it the guy who was tweeting about his disappointment in his VP while there was literally an angry mob looking for said VP in the nation's Capitol? I'm aware of Warren's skeletons just as I am Trump's. I'll take the fake Indian.

[Ironhold]

23 minutes ago, Phoenix_person said:

You voted for the guy who cheated on his wife with a p0rn star, right? Or was it the guy who was tweeting about his disappointment in his VP while there was literally an angry mob looking for said VP in the nation's Capitol? I'm aware of Warren's skeletons just as I am Trump's. I'll take the fake Indian.

I wanted Governor Jon Huntsman in 2012. If he had been elected, we wouldn't be having to have this conversation right now. That's all I'll say. 

Oh, and the only political party I'm a card-carrying member of is UKIP, the UK Independence Party. I paid my thirty quid a few years ago to get access to their official mailings back when they were making news internationally. I'm *years* in arrears on my dues, and yet I still get occasional e-mails each month. I keep my membership card as a novelty. 

[Phoenix_person]

1 hour ago, zil2 said:

Nah, they're just really busy with retail therapy before Trump's tariffs make everything too expensive.  (The ones I've encountered would sooner hug an angry porcupine as a conservative.)

My fellow organizers and I have had some very tough conversations this past month. Locally, we actually had some great victories, but obviously the federal results were highly disappointing. 

The thing is, our work relies very heavily on, you know, getting out and actually talking to voters. We did a huge "listening" campaign last year and used it to shape the local agenda that was overwhelmingly supported by local voters. Our contact lists are filled with swing voters and DFLers.  The talk now us of using public voting records to identify specific Trump-voting groups that were previously identified as undecided or "leaning blue" and talk to them (but mostly listen) about what issues are important to them and gently try to determine what it was about Trump that earned their vote. Because we just don't see it. Yes, inflation got bad. Yes, everything got more expensive (more than Dems are willing to admit, but less than Rs would have you believe). Why was tariff-happy Trump considered the better alternative? How many Trump voters actually understand tariffs and why economists generally hate them? Selling them on his moral failings clearly wasn't effective. We need to learn what they think his strengths are and use that to shape local AND national party policies and messaging (which is why so many of us are riding hard for Ken Martin). I don't know if hugs are specifically on the table, but we're certainly going to try a more open approach to voter outreach, because this right here didn't work. 👇

Edited December 5, 2024 by Phoenix_person

[Phoenix_person]

5 minutes ago, Ironhold said:

I wanted Governor Jon Huntsman in 2012. If he had been elected, we wouldn't be having to have this conversation right now. That's all I'll say. 

You're probably right. I actually kinda wanted Nikki Haley to win the GOP nomination this year specifically BECAUSE I thought she could beat Biden (or Harris, for that matter) and I thought that would be a better reset for the DNC than a Trump victory. I wanted the Dems taken down a peg, just not like this.

[LDSGator]

13 minutes ago, Ironhold said:

Oh, and the only political party I'm a card-carrying member of is UKIP, the UK Independence Party

Dude! I’m not a member of any party but I would staunchly support them. 

 

6 minutes ago, Phoenix_person said:

I wanted the Dems taken down a peg, just not like this.

The wound is still very raw but I highly doubt your side has learned anything. Self critique is not possible among true believers, it’s like trying to grasp at smoke. 

Edited December 5, 2024 by LDSGator

[LDSGator]

1 minute ago, LDSGator said:

Self critique is not possible among true believers, it’s like trying to grasp at smoke. 

One of my most immature beliefs was that I honestly, honestly thought people questioned  their own beliefs in my twenties. Didn’t everyone do that?. Now, as a wiser grown man, I see how stupid I was. People, for the most part, accept the reality of the world they are presented with and never ever question it.  

[NeuroTypical]

1 hour ago, Phoenix_person said:

"listening" campaign
(but mostly listen)
We need to learn what they think

It's one of the true valid differences between conservative and liberal.

Conservatives believe folks in the past got things right.  We don't listen, we inform.  We might care how you think, but only so we can better craft our message of why our principles and practices are superior.

Actually, if you loathe Jordan Peterson, you should still listen to what he says about diversity. 

 

 

Edited December 5, 2024 by NeuroTypical

[LDSGator]

7 minutes ago, NeuroTypical said:

It's one of the true valid differences between conservative and liberal.

The biggest difference, generally speaking, is that conservatives think liberals are misguided or wrong. Liberals think conservatives are evil.  
 

Yes, it’s just a generality. I know of conservatives who rant and rave about liberals being evil, twisted, etc. And I know of liberals who think conservatives are just misguided as well. 

Edited December 5, 2024 by LDSGator

[Phoenix_person]

1 hour ago, NeuroTypical said:

It's one of the true valid differences between conservative and liberal.

Conservatives believe folks in the past got things right.  We don't listen, we inform.  We might care how you think, but only so we can better craft our message of why our principles and practices are superior.

Conservatives of old fought the civil rights movement tooth-and-nail, and Reaganomics played no small role in creating today's gaping wealth disparity. Your message definitely needs some tweaking, especially at a time when Reagan himself would barely recognize what his party has turned into.

1 hour ago, NeuroTypical said:

Actually, if you loathe Jordan Peterson, you should still listen to what he says about diversity. 

 

 

I legitimately can't tell if he's pro-diversity or anti-diversity from this clip. He seems to be saying that diversity of thought is born of free speech, which is true. And correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't he one of the Right's loudest pro-free speech voices? 

He's right that diversity of opinions results in a lot of bad opinions. But it does create the occasional gem that's worth nurturing. Heck, we got a whole new federal holiday because the black community felt it was important for their independence day to be celebrated (and they were right). It's rarely easy to predict the pros and cons of various reforms and new ideas, but that doesn't mean they shouldn't be tried from time to time. The beauty of our democracy is that it prevents tyranny of the few over the many. And because we're also a republic, we can test run some policies on the state level. States like Minnesota, Massachusetts, and Hawaii have been testing grounds for health care reform for years. Colorado was one of the first testing grounds for cannabis legalization (and I know you and I have very strong conflicting opinions in that topic). It's important to vet new ideas and accept that implementation gets messy sometimes. Members of this very forum have openly admitted that Trump's tariffs could potentially create some very massive headaches in the short term, but seem confident that the long term payoff will be worth it. Same with DOGE. How is that any less of a gamble than some of the ideas that come from the left? You talk about old conservatism, but that's not at all what Republicans voted for last month. You voted for reform just as much as I did. We just have very different ideas about the kinds of reforms needed to best help Americans thrive.

Edited December 5, 2024 by Phoenix_person

[LDSGator]

3 minutes ago, Phoenix_person said:

Reagan himself would barely recognize what his party has turned into.

Amen to that. 

[Carborendum]

13 hours ago, Vort said:

Let's see. That's the one who tried to gain votes by pretending that she was part American Indian, right?

IIRC, no, she did not....  I could be wrong.  But to the best of my recollection...

She didn't want to bring it up at all.  She lied on an application to get either an affirmative action slot or a race specific scholarship. 

After she graduated, I think she just wanted to ignore it.  And the liberal media was happy to leave her "red-face" incident alone.  They tried to make excuses (like she really was 1/64th indian or something like that.  But, no...

Rules for thee, but not for me.

Edited December 5, 2024 by Carborendum

[Carborendum]

13 hours ago, NeuroTypical said:

Well, I mean, she is.  So is just about everyone whose family has lived in the US for 3 generations or more.   Ancestry.com tells me I'm first cousins with Pocahontas for pete's sake. Just like Warren.

I think that makes me the only person on this forum who has no native American blood.

Good thing I got another intesectionality thing going on.  Oh, but wait, in university admissions, I'm even more persecuted than white people.

Sucks to be me.

Edited December 5, 2024 by Carborendum

[JohnsonJones]

13 hours ago, Phoenix_person said:

Believe it or not, there are quite a few people on my side of the fence who are trying to dismantle the "deep state" as well. As I said above, February's DNC election is potentially monumental in determining whether the path forward is decided by voters or by the donor class.

The Best path forward is to ditch the far left and get an independent who will do their best for the DNC to lead the Democrat party. 

However, they won't do that.

The biggest problem with the Democrats this election is that they were so full of themselves they didn't see that they were abandoning anyone who didn't see it the same way their elites did.  The reasons they lost were pretty obvious, and yet they still struggle to figure it out because they have a bunch of elitest so out of touch they still don't know why they lost.

It's simple...really...

 

1.  They backstabbed their own candidate.  The two weeks after the debate with Biden they didn't focus on what Trump did wrong...they actively sabotaged their own candidate to force that candidate to step down.  This was obvious and blatant and upset a LOT of independents (yours truly included).  Many of those refused to vote for Harris or anyone that the Democrats decided to crown as the heir apparent.  I think this was probably the biggest factor of the loss.  If they had a mini-primary it may have repaired a little of that damage, but I still think it was such a massive wound that it was nigh unrecoverable.  This was a MASSIVE mistake on the Democrats part.  Rather than rallying, they cut their supporters in half instantly. 

2.  The forgot what the Democrat party was.  They focused on small items rather than how the general public felt.  There were many (especially young people) that are struggling for food and housing, but they Democrat party simply ignored them.  Ignoring the problems a majority of your base is having is never a winning strategy.  To make matters worse, whether it was full of lies or not, Trump's campaign addressed the issues and promised they would make them better.

3.  They didn't give voice to everyone.  It was our way or the higway.  I don't agree with the pro-palestinian/anti-Israel movement in the Democrat party, but they should have at least had a spot at the table and be allowed to speak their minds.  If we want freedom of speech and freedom of choice, they should have been allowed to at least voice their concerns rather than be shoved into a corner.  It's a small matter, but when you've lost so many due to the other issues above, any small amount counts.  This applies to many of the smaller matters that were ignored as well (not as big media voice among young men, etc) which I feel didn't have as big an impact as the two items above, but also made the loss far worse.

It wasn't stretching the hand across the aisle that sunk the Democrat party in this election, it was ignoring obvious mistakes that I mentioned above.  It's not a hard thing to see or figure out.  They lost the independents by their actions (and it's really the independents who make the election) and the Democrats are far too blind to see that, from what I'm observing.   It's not just the elites, it's the hardcore of their party who think they just need to unify and move further to the left (yeah, that's how Republicans painted the DNC this election...that sure worked well for you guys...Not)  It's the matters above, the matters that apply in general to many people (not just the far left issues of whether a transwoman is actually a woman or not) that affected the election, but until the Democrats realize this (or the Republicans screw the nation so badly people want a change), the Democrats will probably still have a problem winning in the near future.

[JohnsonJones]

11 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

I think that makes me the only person on this forum who has no native American blood.

Good thing I got another intesectionality thing going on.  Oh, but wait, in university admissions, I'm even more persecuted than white people.

Sucks to be me.

I don't think I have any Native American Blood either. 

If we were the same age (I think you are quite a bit younger than I am), you are correct most likely.  I probably would have had an easier time getting into an Ivy League than you (if I understand your racial background correctly, you have a Korean background if I recall). 

If the papers were correct, we both would have had a harder time than some other minorities who had equal education as we did (though, if I also remember correctly, the reason for the quota's initially were due to the idea that many minorities were not in environments where education would be equal to those of other races, and such were at a disadvantage already due to having a lower educational experience). 

Unfortunately, with Asian-Americans that has proven to be somewhat of a fallacy, as many of those from Southeastern Asia descent were shown to also have similar disadvantages in life and as such, the system has only worked to further discrimination against them and other Asians.

I wonder though, with Trump's policies, would you be subject to having your citizenship revoked and you being sent out of the US eventually?  There is talk that those who were not natural born citizens in the US (you were born in Korea...correct) having a loophole that Trump may eventually use (though it seems to be more focused on Central and South Americans first and foremost) to revoke citizenship from those who born in different nations or countries than the US as a first step in the process of trying to fight back and eventually do away with birthright citizenship. 

[NeuroTypical]

1 hour ago, Carborendum said:

I think that makes me the only person on this forum who has no native American blood.

Good thing I got another intesectionality thing going on.  Oh, but wait, in university admissions, I'm even more persecuted than white people.

Sucks to be me.

Lol yep - Folks of Korean descent are a minority in the US, but apparently not a "historically marginalized minority".   I hear the acronym NAAPI from my progressive buddies - Native American, Asian, Pacific Islander.  The first and last are brown people who have suffered from institutionalized racism.  The one in the middle though - well, I really don't hear much from woke folks on them.    Depending on the particular brand of progressive, they can get rather uncomfortable talking about Asian Americans.  They tend to be ignorant of the past abuses, and sort of hold Asians in their brains as similar to the privileged whites.  But "Asian privilege" sounds like they're being mean to minorities.  Best to not talk or think too much about them. 

 

1 hour ago, JohnsonJones said:

I don't think I have any Native American Blood either. 

Yeah, don't be too sure.  Unless all 4 of your grandparents immigrated from outside the US, odds are you can trace a winding road up through your tree to an astonishing amount of people.  Here's my line back to Pocahontas (starting with my great-grandma for privacy's sake):

Got this from one of the LDS genealogy apps like Family Tree, that used to have a fun "who are you related to" function.  We played with it in Elder's quorum one Sunday.  There was a "find people I'm related to" that would reach out to everyone else's cell phone.  Turns out all of us was related to at least one of us.  Except for the son of the Ukrainian immigrants - he was related to none of us.

So yeah, me and Warren.   Except I've never tried to claim association or blood, just because [typing carefully] my dad's mom's mom's dad's dad's dad's dad's mom's mom's mom's dad's mom's dad was Pocahontas' grandpa.

[zil2]

19 minutes ago, NeuroTypical said:

Here's my line back to Pocahontas (starting with my great-grandma for privacy's sake):

  OK, now we all need to do this!!  Here are instructions:

• Log in to FamilySearch (the following link won't work unless you're logged in)
• Go to this link and it should be Pocahantas' page
• Click the "VIEW RELATIONSHIP" link:

And it should bring up a page showing your relationship - if you have one.

Me and NT are nth cousins, or removed cousins, or something...  Pocahantas is my 12th great-grandmother!  (Direct line through my maternal grandfather.)  Here it is, starting with my great-grandmother: