The priesthood and Black african men

[mikbone]

6 hours ago, Vort said:

As far as I know, our current leaders do not subscribe to the current fad of calling Brigham Young a racist and saying that the whole Priesthood ban was just a big mistake. I see exactly zero evidence of any such belief.

What do you make of McConkie's quote? 

There are statements in our literature by the early brethren which we have interpreted to mean that the Negroes would not receive the priesthood in mortality. I have said the same things, and people write me letters and say, "You said such and such, and how is it now that we do such and such?" And all I can say to that is that it is time disbelieving people repented and got in line and believed in a living, modern prophet. Forget everything that I have said, or what President Brigham Young or President George Q. Cannon or whomsoever has said in days past that is contrary to the present revelation. We spoke with a limited understanding and without the light and knowledge that now has come into the world.... We get our truth and our light line upon line and precept upon precept. We have now had added a new flood of intelligence and light on this particular subject, and it erases all the darkness and all the views and all the thoughts of the past. They don't matter any more.... It doesn't make a particle of difference what anybody ever said about the Negro matter before the first day of June of this year.

I'm not saying that Brigham Young was racist. He lived in a different time with different social norms, and we can't judge him based on today's standards.

The Church leadership since Sept 30, 1978 has been clear though.  

On the other hand, when I look through this thread.  I am forced to ask myself.  Are some of the responses racist?  Might a Latter-Day Saint of African descent think that some of the reactions are racist?  Might the current church leadership believe that some of the comments are racist?  Might Jesus Christ think that some of the responses are racist?

I will repeat, no good can come from continuing this discussion. 

2 Ne 26:33

/Mikbone out 

Edited December 3, 2024 by mikbone

[LDSGator]

14 minutes ago, mikbone said:

What do you make of McConkie's quote? 

There are statements in our literature by the early brethren which we have interpreted to mean that the Negroes would not receive the priesthood in mortality. I have said the same things, and people write me letters and say, "You said such and such, and how is it now that we do such and such?" And all I can say to that is that it is time disbelieving people repented and got in line and believed in a living, modern prophet. Forget everything that I have said, or what President Brigham Young or President George Q. Cannon or whomsoever has said in days past that is contrary to the present revelation. We spoke with a limited understanding and without the light and knowledge that now has come into the world.... We get our truth and our light line upon line and precept upon precept. We have now had added a new flood of intelligence and light on this particular subject, and it erases all the darkness and all the views and all the thoughts of the past. They don't matter any more.... It doesn't make a particle of difference what anybody ever said about the Negro matter before the first day of June of this year.

I'm not saying that Brigham Young was racist. He lived in a different time with different social norms, and we can't judge him based on today's standards.

The Church leadership since Sept 30, 1978 has been clear though.  

On the other hand, when I look through this thread.  I am forced to ask myself.  Are some of the responses racist?  Might a Latter-Day Saint of African descent think that some of the reactions are racist?  Might the current church leadership believe that some of the comments are racist?  Might Jesus Christ think that some of the responses are racist?

I will repeat, no good can come from continuing this discussion. 

/Mikbone out 

Calling the responses racist is a bridge too far for me, but I understand your post 100%. 

[Vort]

23 minutes ago, mikbone said:

What do you make of McConkie's quote? 

There are statements in our literature by the early brethren which we have interpreted to mean that the Negroes would not receive the priesthood in mortality. I have said the same things, and people write me letters and say, "You said such and such, and how is it now that we do such and such?" And all I can say to that is that it is time disbelieving people repented and got in line and believed in a living, modern prophet. Forget everything that I have said, or what President Brigham Young or President George Q. Cannon or whomsoever has said in days past that is contrary to the present revelation. We spoke with a limited understanding and without the light and knowledge that now has come into the world.... We get our truth and our light line upon line and precept upon precept. We have now had added a new flood of intelligence and light on this particular subject, and it erases all the darkness and all the views and all the thoughts of the past. They don't matter any more.... It doesn't make a particle of difference what anybody ever said about the Negro matter before the first day of June of this year.

Please point out in your above quote where Elder McConkie identified a mistaken policy decision or false revelation by Brigham Young.

23 minutes ago, mikbone said:

On the other hand, when I look through this thread.  I am forced to ask myself.  Are some of the responses racist?  Might a Latter-Day Saint of African descent think that some of the reactions are racist?  Might the current church leadership believe that some of the comments are racist?  Might Jesus Christ think that some of the responses are racist?

You think that Jesus Christ judges comments based on how "racist" they are? Tell me, what does Jesus consider as a "racist comment"? What are the hallmarks of such a comment? Is it possible that Jesus judges individuals rather than comments? Is it possible that the appellation "racist" can ultimately apply only to human beings and not to sequences of sound waves or letters?

23 minutes ago, mikbone said:

I will repeat, no good can come from continuing this discussion.

And yet here you are.

[Maverick]

3 hours ago, Vort said:

The problem in this discussion is that we are not in a court of law.

Exactly. This is historical inquiry not a court of law. And in historical inquiry the sources I provided are all considered evidence. Do they definitively prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that the priesthood ban began with Joseph Smith? No, but they do show that this is likely. Especially since multiple sources claim this and the sources are from reliable trustworthy individuals. 

3 hours ago, Vort said:

I will continue to argue, forcefully and vociferously, against the ill-considered and even traitorous practice of labelling our Church leaders as racists and otherwise seeking the approval of the world—ironically and fittingly, an approval that would never come unless we literally left all truth behind and simply bowed to the world's will.

I agree that it’s wrong to accuse past brethren of being racists and to claim that the ban was the result of racism and a mistake, contrary to the will of God. 

In this particular discussion, I question the motivation that some have to try and discredit the evidence that the ban began with Joseph Smith. It seems that the intent is to discredit the validity of the ban as being the will of God and to attribute it to racism by Brigham Young and the other leaders of the church instead. 

[Maverick]

42 minutes ago, mikbone said:

What do you make of McConkie's quote? 

There are statements in our literature by the early brethren which we have interpreted to mean that the Negroes would not receive the priesthood in mortality. I have said the same things, and people write me letters and say, "You said such and such, and how is it now that we do such and such?" And all I can say to that is that it is time disbelieving people repented and got in line and believed in a living, modern prophet. Forget everything that I have said, or what President Brigham Young or President George Q. Cannon or whomsoever has said in days past that is contrary to the present revelation. We spoke with a limited understanding and without the light and knowledge that now has come into the world.... We get our truth and our light line upon line and precept upon precept. We have now had added a new flood of intelligence and light on this particular subject, and it erases all the darkness and all the views and all the thoughts of the past. They don't matter any more.... It doesn't make a particle of difference what anybody ever said about the Negro matter before the first day of June of this year.

1. This is Elder McConkie’s opinion. Not an official declaration of the church’s official position.

2. Elder McConkie continued to maintain that blacks were descendants of Cain and that the ban was the result of a curse put upon them by God. He believed that God had finally lifted the curse.

3. His statement about forgetting past teachings refers to the timing of the ban being lifted. He believed it had been lifted in 1978 by revelation from God, while Brigham Young and other early leaders had taught that it wouldn’t be lifted until the end of the millennium. He may have also been referring to the teaching that blacks had brought the curse upon themselves due to actions before they were born. 

[Maverick]

6 hours ago, NeuroTypical said:

This page seems to be good evidence for a position exactly opposite what you're claiming.   "Elder Hyde enquired the situation of the Negro. I replied they come into the world slaves, mentally & physically. Change their situation with the whites, & they would be like them. They have souls & are subjects of Salvation. Go into Cincinati. or any city, and find an educated negro. who rides in his carriage, and you will see a being who has risen by the powers of his own mind to his exalted state of respectability."

This quote doesn’t mention the ban. It does however show that Joseph Smith was opposed to interracial marriage and that he believed that blacks came into this world slaves mentally and physically. This could suggest that it was a result of something that transpired before this life. It’s not as if all blacks were slaves at this time, so what was he referring to? What does it mean to come into this world mentally a slave? 

[Just_A_Guy]

2 hours ago, mikbone said:

What do you make of McConkie's quote? 

There are statements in our literature by the early brethren which we have interpreted to mean that the Negroes would not receive the priesthood in mortality. I have said the same things, and people write me letters and say, "You said such and such, and how is it now that we do such and such?" And all I can say to that is that it is time disbelieving people repented and got in line and believed in a living, modern prophet. Forget everything that I have said, or what President Brigham Young or President George Q. Cannon or whomsoever has said in days past that is contrary to the present revelation. We spoke with a limited understanding and without the light and knowledge that now has come into the world.... We get our truth and our light line upon line and precept upon precept. We have now had added a new flood of intelligence and light on this particular subject, and it erases all the darkness and all the views and all the thoughts of the past. They don't matter any more.... It doesn't make a particle of difference what anybody ever said about the Negro matter before the first day of June of this year.

I'm not saying that Brigham Young was racist. He lived in a different time with different social norms, and we can't judge him based on today's standards.

The Church leadership since Sept 30, 1978 has been clear though.  

On the other hand, when I look through this thread.  I am forced to ask myself.  Are some of the responses racist?  Might a Latter-Day Saint of African descent think that some of the reactions are racist?  Might the current church leadership believe that some of the comments are racist?  Might Jesus Christ think that some of the responses are racist?

I will repeat, no good can come from continuing this discussion. 

/Mikbone out 

The quote should be read in the context of his entire talk.

As @Maverick mentions:  McConkie maintained the ban was of divine origin, maintained that the gospel goes to different people at different times, and even speculated that African saints’ place in that sequence had to do with the faith shown in the pre mortal life(!).  And this is after OD-2.  So he clearly didn’t see any of that as being “contrary to the present revelation”.

 

Edited December 3, 2024 by Just_A_Guy

[Maverick]

19 hours ago, Carborendum said:

Remember that Abel was only 1/8 black.  He "passed" as a white man.

You bring up an important point here.

Is it possible that when Elijah Abel was originally ordained the brethren, including Joseph Smith didn’t realize that he was partially black? 

This would fit with the statement by Zebedee Coltrin that “when the Prophet Joseph learned of his lineage he was dropped from the Quorum.” 

Could it be that his lineage wasn’t known until he received his patriarchal blessing by Joseph Smith Sr. some time after his ordination to the Melchizedek priesthood and the office of Seventy?

Zebedee Coltrin was one of the presidents of the first quorum of the Seventy from 1835 to 1837. If Elijah Abel’s lineage was discovered when he received his patriarchal blessing in late 1836 and he was dropped from the quorum immediately or in early 1837, this would fit with what Zebedee Coltrin said as well. 

And if this what happened, then it’s quite possible that Zebedee Coltrin really was told in 1834 by Joseph Smith that “the spirit of the Lord saith the Negro has no right and cannot hold the Priesthood.”

Then after Abel’s lineage of being 1/8 black was discovered and he was told that his ordination wasn’t valid, Joseph Smith told other individuals that “no person having the least particle of Negro blood can hold the Priesthood,” as Zebedee Coltrin recalled. 

[mikbone]