Trump (Or any Subject) Derangement Syndrome

[JohnsonJones]

11 hours ago, mirkwood said:

 

Your assertion is not anecdotal.  What age?  We can fact check that very easily by you giving us that information.  Pretty sure when you do, the statistics will show that to be untrue.  Prove me wrong.

 

You gave an anecdotal reference, so I also gave an anecdotal experience. 

I'm not certain how you can claim an opinon or personal experience (rather than using statistics) is not anecdotal.  Especially when I outright state it is anecdotal (you know what anecdotal means...correct?)

That said

I don't mind as long as you use an actual source that's not some far right conservative wacked out conspiracy laden site that claims we never landed on the moon, vaccines don't work, the earth is flat, or other nonsense like that (and unfortunately, there seems to be a LOT of those out there and for some odd reason the Trump "Conservatives" seem to eat that stuff up.  Normal conservatives...not so much.  But there's a lot of nonsense out there.  Anti-Intellectualism, Anti-Science, and Anti-Education seem to be on the rise these days).  (To be clear, I don't mind conservative or liberal sources, but those that go off about how evil and wrong all scientists and science is...won't convince me...and I think your point is to try to convince me rather than just be a sounding board).

If it's from a reputable source, and can be sourced to something reputable...I'm game.

Okay, let's check for the top death rates of those kids who were 18 to 25  Those are the kids I mostly was over and worked with in the University system (and thus, the ones I would know about the most).   I didn't know of any of those students that died from Covid, vaccinated or not.  I didn't know anyone of the younger generation (up to their 50s) that died of Covid in my Ward or stake (personally known.  I heard about some, and read about others, but no one I knew personally from those ages died from that cause.  That's anecdotal again, however).

For those who are in my age group you are going to be looking at those 70+ and older.  

I'd probably shoot for the years between 2020 and 2022.

This is a decent example...

Top causes of death for ages 15-24

number of deaths from Statista ages 20-24

This is pretty good.  I consider the CDC  pretty decent for that time period, though I know a lot of uneducated anti-vaxxers and flat earthers were against it.

CDC's National Viital Statistics

 

I'm not certain what you are trying to prove to me (though, maybe it's the idea you think that more people died from being vaccinated from Covid-19 than died from other causes (or even from Covid-19 itself), in which case that's not supported by any of the data I looked at above.

TLDR:  I'm game for you to post some things to try to convince me (Which is more of a chance an opportunity than I think most people would give me here), but if you wish to do so, please use valid sources rather than something that would waste my time.  I'm always willing to listen and consider other opinions, but I'd also prefer a strong argument with valid sources than not.

Edited Wednesday at 11:26 PM by JohnsonJones

[mirkwood]

12 hours ago, JohnsonJones said:

100% of the people my age who died from Covid were NOT Vaxxed.  

 

Let's start here.  You avoided responding.

 

100% means EVERYONE.  ALL.  NO SURVIVOURS.  You asserted this in your statement I quoted above.  

 

YOUR statement (quoted above) is NOT anecdotal.  You made a statement of fact.  I believe you have said you are in your 70's.  So, show me the stat block you used to make the assertion that 100% of the people your age who died from Covid were NOT Vaxxed.

 

You made the claim Johson, not me.

 

Now you can retract your claim and say that isn't what I meant, you misunderstood etc. and I will accept that, but you have claimed 100% fatality rate in your age group.

 

Defend or correct your position and then I'll wade through your lengthy post.

[zil2]

@JohnsonJones, it sounded like you were saying that all people your age who died of COVID were unvaccinated - all people everywhere on the entire planet, no exception. (This is the same as saying that no person your age who was vaccinated died of COVID - ever, anywhere on the planet.)

I think you were trying to parallel @mirkwood's statement by saying that of the people your age, that you personally know, who died of COVID, none were vaccinated.  But your statement didn't include the qualifier regarding "those you personally know".

[JohnsonJones]

8 minutes ago, zil2 said:

@JohnsonJones, it sounded like you were saying that all people your age who died of COVID were unvaccinated - all people everywhere on the entire planet, no exception. (This is the same as saying that no person your age who was vaccinated died of COVID - ever, anywhere on the planet.)

I think you were trying to parallel @mirkwood's statement by saying that of the people your age, that you personally know, who died of COVID, none were vaccinated.  But your statement didn't include the qualifier regarding "those you personally know".

 

No, as I stated, this was anecdotal, just like @mirkwood had an anecdotal experience about the only ones he knew were those who were actually vaccinated.

It's why I stated, it was anecdotal (meaning, based on personal experience.  Perhaps I wasn't clear, though I thought by stating it was anecdotal information, people would understand my statement was anecdotal.  I suppose what may have seemed clear to me, may not be clear to others). 

Personally, no one I knew that was vaccinated died from Covid-19.   If we are going from anecdotal experiences, than I would imagine my experience is just as valid as anyone else's.  

I did know of people who died from Covid-19 (unfortunately), and I did know at least one member who had been vaccinated was seriously affected by it (he is older than I am, that was hospitalized [we did a fast for him] but he recovered luckily).

I got rather sick during that time period, but not enough to go on a ventilator.  I was blessed.  I was also vaccinated.  

My spouse lost her sense of smell, and I know of one or two young people that experienced what one would term...long Covid, but most of those who died in from Covid were early on and were from my generation rather than the younger generations.  

Edited Wednesday at 11:45 PM by JohnsonJones

[JohnsonJones]

23 minutes ago, mirkwood said:

Let's start here.  You avoided responding.

100% means EVERYONE.  ALL.  NO SURVIVOURS.  You asserted this in your statement I quoted above.  

YOUR statement (quoted above) is NOT anecdotal.  You made a statement of fact.  I believe you have said you are in your 70's.  So, show me the stat block you used to make the assertion that 100% of the people your age who died from Covid were NOT Vaxxed.

You made the claim Johson, not me.

Now you can retract your claim and say that isn't what I meant, you misunderstood etc. and I will accept that, but you have claimed 100% fatality rate in your age group.

Defend or correct your position and then I'll wade through your lengthy post.

This is what I claimed

Quote

100% of the people my age who died from Covid were NOT Vaxxed.  If we are going by anecdotal information.

The only young people I knew who died during that time period, died from other things  (suicide, accidents, and other sad situations).

I bolded and underlined the part you missed.

I thought it was obvious that when I stated we are going off of anecdotal information, you would understand that your statement on who died from being vaccinated was absolutely anecdotal, and that this also was stating MY INFORMATION was anecdotal (sorry about the all caps @NeuroTypical, but it seems when I don't do this, people may be missing something I've been saying, I've been trying not to use them though).

Everything in the post was anecdotal.

Thus, anecdotally, NO ONE WHO WAS VACCINATED DIED from Covid-19.   That's 100% no one died.  This is anecdotal information.

It's 100% fact (once you realize, that this is anecdotal).  Anecdotal doesn't mean it's true overall, but is based on what you have personally experienced.  It's 100% fact that in my personal experience, I didn't see anyone who was vaccinated from Covid-19 die from the disease.  In your anecdotal post you claim it was personally what you saw (but many of your posts besides that one, such as where you claim hospital workers are manipulating information don't say that it's an opinion, anecdotal, or anything of the sort, but are literally saying it like they are facts without anything to back them up).

Why do you think I included that this was anecdotal information except to point out that what we both were doing was using anecdotal information in our posts?

I thought you were wanting to try to prove that being vaccinated was a higher cause of death than dying from Covid-19, if we go off your personal thoughts or something.  If that's what you feel or think, I'm am open for you to try to present your case.  If not, I'm not sure why you are wanting me to prove something I already said was anecdotal (and I think I've been pretty clear since then, if you didn't catch it on the original post) as absolute truth rather than...as I said...anecdotal information.  

I can show that dying from being vaccinated was not as high a cause of death as Covid-19 was...or is, most likely.  In fact, during 2020-2022 it (Covid-19) was one of the leading causes of death...while being vaccinated from Covid-19 was not and had a very SMALL chance of causing death (an even smaller chance than some of the other vaccines out there, so those going on about peope dying from the vaccine is a little odd to focus on this one rather than others which have a higher mortality rate).  I posted some actual references to that above, but am open for you to show counter references to back something up that you feel is wrong, or of a different opinion of.

Edited Wednesday at 11:58 PM by JohnsonJones
Clarity

[zil2]

22 minutes ago, JohnsonJones said:

No, as I stated, this was anecdotal, just like @mirkwood had an anecdotal experience about the only ones he knew were those who were actually vaccinated.

I'm confused.  "No" above means "it's not limited to only those I know", that means it's not anecdotal.  But then you say, "this was anecdotal".  If it was anecdotal, then the answer to my text is, "Yes, this was anecdotal. That's what I was trying to communicate in that incomplete sentence I wrote after the sentence that looked like a claim of facts rather than an anecdote."

Quote

Anecdotal: (of an account) not necessarily true or reliable, because based on personal accounts rather than facts or research.

Or your first statement should have been a single sentence rather than one sentence + one incomplete sentence.  So that this:

13 hours ago, JohnsonJones said:

100% of the people my age who died from Covid were NOT Vaxxed.  If we are going by anecdotal information.

Should have read:

"If we are going by anecdotal information, 100% of the people my age who died from Covid were NOT Vaxxed."  Or even better, "Of those I know about, 100% of the people my age who died from Covid were NOT Vaxxed." If structured like this, then the preceding clause acts as a qualifier that this is your limited experience.  But your original wording is such that your first sentence ("100% of the people my age who died from Covid were NOT Vaxxed.") is making a factual claim about every person your age on the entire planet across the entire timeframe of COVID's existence, because that sentence has no qualifiers.  The intent of the second sentence was apparently unclear to everyone but me (though after your response, I'm now uncertain whether it is or isn't intended to qualify the first sentence).

In other words: when I try to guess that your second, incomplete sentence, was intended to qualify the first, you tell me "no, it wasn't" but then "this was anecdotal" (which means "yes, it was")...  Honestly, it's like we're speaking a different language.

[mirkwood]

It's also like @JohnsonJones is looking for a fight on this topic.  Ok, I wasn't but I guess we could.

 

See @zil2's post above again for further detail.  Maybe read it a second time.

 

I never claimed anything as statistic based.  I was talking about my own experiences.  I spoke of what I personally observed.  I spoke of what friends in the medical field told me.  Apparently that has rubbed you wrong.  I really don't care if it did.  That is an @JohnsonJones problem, not a mirkwood problem.

 

Your anecdotal references are on equal ground with mine.  You are the one who appears to take exception to this.  Again that is an @JohnsonJones problem, not a mirkwood problem.

 

So what is your real issue?  Frankly I am bewildered by your being upset by this sharing of experiences.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[JohnsonJones]

9 hours ago, mirkwood said:

It's also like @JohnsonJones is looking for a fight on this topic.  Ok, I wasn't but I guess we could.

Your anecdotal references are on equal ground with mine.  You are the one who appears to take exception to this.  Again that is an @JohnsonJones problem, not a mirkwood problem.

So what is your real issue?  Frankly I am bewildered by your being upset by this sharing of experiences.

 

 

 

 

 

 

That's exactly what I said.   In the very first post.

If you are going to relate your anecdotal situation, I'll relate mine.  That is, if we are going to relate anecdotal examples.  

For some reason, you then tried to demand that I my anecdotes must be facts or something strange like that.  

Which, I was kind of confused about, but shrugged and said...well...if that's what you want...I'm game.  Not sure what you are aiming for, but sure...why not.

My purpose was not to argue or fight, but see where you were wanting to go with this.  Your complaint didn't make a lot of sense to me, but I wasn't upset about it, but kind of confused and curious where you were going with this and where you wanted to go with it.

However, if it was going to go into the area where you were trying to back up your anecdotal experiences with fact (which I suppose you may have been wanting to do as you demanded me to back mine up with facts, AND, as my experiences were different than yours, perhaps you were wanting to prove that my experiences were less like what actually is reflected by the statistics and numbers than yours were) I didn't want to have to put up with a bunch of conspiracy information and fake information sites (such as I mentioned before...flat earthers, anti-vaxxers, etc). 

I wanted to be clear and up front that I am open to your opinion (whatever it was...as I said, I wasn't quite sure where you were wanting to go with this), but if you were going to go that route, please try to do things that would convince me rather than things that would do the opposite.  (I'm open to valid discussion and debate, and open to being convinced, but if you are aiming to convince me of something, use resources that I consider useful rather than those I do not.  I was trying to point you in that direction so that if you had valid points, you might be able to convince me of your viewpoints).

In that light, I thought giving a few examples of what I would look for could guide you in the right direction.

In that light, I actually started posting information on the lead causes of death as examples of what we are looking for in regards to facts.

  If we want FACTS, we can post FACTS.

However, if we are going by anecdotal information, then demanding someone back up their anecdotes with facts for no apparent reason while you don't do the same is kind of...well...odd.  Not offensive, but it didn't give me any idea of what you were actually wanting or after.

9 hours ago, zil2 said:

"If we are going by anecdotal information, 100% of the people my age who died from Covid were NOT Vaxxed."  

This is the almost the exact same Phrase I used, except you separated two sentences with a comma (which is a common item to do with two sentences) and reversed their order.  Otherwise, it's almost exactly the same thing I stated to begin with.

However, as I admitted, what read as crystal clear to me, did not read crystal clear to others.

Edited yesterday at 10:14 AM by JohnsonJones

[mirkwood]

1 hour ago, JohnsonJones said:

That's exactly what I said.   In the very first post.

If you are going to relate your anecdotal situation, I'll relate mine.  That is, if we are going to relate anecdotal examples.  

 

Yep, you just want to argue.

As I said above, if you wanted to clarify/change/correct what you meant (meaning anecdotal) feel free.  

Then I said your anecdotal statements had equal footing.

Then you wanted to continue to argue.

:shrug:

Have a better day @JohnsonJones.  

 

[zil2]

3 hours ago, JohnsonJones said:

except you separated two sentences with a comma

No I didn't.  Since you don't believe me, go talk to an English professor.  What you call "two sentences" was [one sentence] and [an incomplete sentence that should have been a qualifying clause as part of the first sentence].

3 hours ago, JohnsonJones said:

This is the almost the exact same Phrase I used, ....  Otherwise, it's almost exactly the same thing I stated to begin with.

At least now we've established that I understood your original intent.  But it took way, way too long to get there.

[JohnsonJones]

22 hours ago, mirkwood said:

 

Yep, you just want to argue.

As I said above, if you wanted to clarify/change/correct what you meant (meaning anecdotal) feel free.  

Then I said your anecdotal statements had equal footing.

Then you wanted to continue to argue.

:shrug:

Have a better day @JohnsonJones.  

 

????

You are a confusing one...

But, that said...

You have a great day as well and hope that things go well for you.

[Carborendum]

Breaking:

Current Congressional hearings from doctors who claim 74% of COVID deaths were from the vaccines.  And not a single study has shown that it helped prevent the symptoms and they KNOW that it did not prevent spread.

These are current testimonies at the moment.  Waiting on further verification, rebuttals, and information.

Edited 3 hours ago by Carborendum

[zil2]

22 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

Current Congressional hearings from doctors who claim 74% of COVID deaths were from the vaccines.  And not a single study has shown that it helped prevent the symptoms and they KNOW that it did not prevent spread.

If you want a crash course in immunology, to understand why a shot in the arm cannot stop a virus that enters the body via the mucosal membranes, check out today's DarkHorse interview with Dr. Robert Clancy :

(They will also explain what a shot in the arm can do in relation to viruses that entered via mucosal membranes.  The interview prior to this one was a doctor explaining why said membranes are more vulnerable these days, and a way to improve our resistance - should you be interested.  If you have no biology background, both will be a little hard to follow, but I think everyone here is able to do so.)

[LDSGator]

 

1 hour ago, zil2 said:

If you want a crash course in immunology, to understand why a shot in the arm cannot stop a virus that enters the body via the mucosal membranes, check out today's DarkHorse interview with Dr. Robert Clancy :

(They will also explain what a shot in the arm can do in relation to viruses that entered via mucosal membranes.  The interview prior to this one was a doctor explaining why said membranes are more vulnerable these days, and a way to improve our resistance - should you be interested.  If you have no biology background, both will be a little hard to follow, but I think everyone here is able to do so.)

And to counter this video, read this: 

https://amp.abc.net.au/article/13031918

and this:

https://theconversation.com/why-do-we-get-shots-in-the-arm-its-all-about-the-muscle-161259

Also, Clancy is an immunologist who specializes in COPD. Not Covid. What you did was hire tax lawyer to defend you in a capital murder case. He might he a brilliant tax lawyer but that means nothing in this scenario 

Edited 1 hour ago by LDSGator

[zil2]

30 minutes ago, LDSGator said:

And to counter this video, read this: 

https://amp.abc.net.au/article/13031918

and this:

https://theconversation.com/why-do-we-get-shots-in-the-arm-its-all-about-the-muscle-161259

Also, Clancy is an immunologist who specializes in COPD. Not Covid. What you did was hire tax lawyer to defend you in a capital murder case. He might he a brilliant tax lawyer but that means nothing in this scenario 

Not seeing the conflict / counter.  Am perfectly happy for you to disagree.

[NeuroTypical]

2 hours ago, Carborendum said:

Current Congressional hearings from doctors who claim 74% of COVID deaths were from the vaccines.

I can't see how that could possibly be true.   At the height of things, my county and state dashboards both painted a picture.  They both broke out hospitalizations and deaths by vaccination status, meaning there was a graph with one bar for "hospitalized for covid and vaxxed" and one for "hospitalized for covid and nonvaxxed".   Same for deaths: "died of covid and vaxxed" and "died of covid and nonvaxxed".  This was starting in 2021, after we had finally learned to tell the difference between "died of covid" and "died with covid".  

Both of those charts showed, consistently across like 2 years, greater numbers of people in our hospitals who hadn't been vaxxed, and greater number of people dying who hadn't been vaxxed.  As the vaccine rollout continued and the majority of Coloradans became vaxxed, and then the supermajority, the hospitals and morgues still stayed fuller with nonvaxxed folks than vaxxed. 

All that aside, I'm happy that congressional hearings are taking place.  Let everyone have their say, and pay attention, and alter opinions based on the picture painted by the facts. 

 

You'd think if the vax was killing people, it would have shown up during the human trials.  I was part of the nationwide phase III Moderna vaccine trial, and as far as I can tell our death rate wasn't any higher than the normal death rate of ghe population in general.

Edited 1 hour ago by NeuroTypical

[mirkwood]