California Insurrection

[Carborendum]

We've probably all heard of the mobs gathering in California.  This is different than previous protests in two ways.  

• It is not just people being "highly impolite."  It has shown flare-ups of criminality that certainly fulfill definitions of "insurrection."
• It hasn't just been a 9 to 5 job that people usually put in their time and go home.  That's because they are paid for that protest.  But these guys are going around the clock.  I can't really tell if it is all the same folks or if they are doing tag-team or whatnot.

So, I'll revisit the law regarding insurrections if anyone is interested.

Quote

 

Posse Comitatus Act of 1878:

Posse Comitatus prevents the use of active-duty military against US citizens.  Federal troops (military) are not to be used for civilian law enforcement except in specific circumstances outlined by law.

Insurrection:

Title 10, Chapter 13 (The Insurrection Act) grants the President authority to deploy the military to suppress insurrections, domestic violence, or unlawful gatherings which hinder the execution of federal law. 

State Request:

The Insurrection Act can be invoked if a state requests federal assistance to suppress an insurrection or if the president determines that state authorities are unable or unwilling to enforce federal law. 

Specific Circumstances:

The Insurrection Act can be used when:

• There is an insurrection within a state that interferes with the execution of state or federal law, or deprives citizens of their constitutional rights. 
• State authorities are unwilling or unable to enforce federal law, and the president determines that it is necessary to use military force to execute those laws. 

 

It appears that these conditions are satisfied for this uprising.

If I understand this correctly, the Marines can be deployed in accordance to the above at the President's discretion.  But the other branches of the military requires Congressional approval to deploy.  Marines are currently at the ready.  

I hope this is not any worse than the Rodney King or George Floyd riots.

[LDSGator]

The military being deployed seems a bit extreme. If Joe Biden did this the right would be losing their minds in rage, though they won’t admit it now.  

[Phoenix_person]

If this wasn't an insurrection, then neither is what's happening in LA. You're not going to convince me otherwise.

 

The LA situation happened because the feds brought militarized agents to an immigration sting, just like they did in Minneapolis last week. The amount of government force brought was disproportionate to the need. The feds showed up looking for a fight. When the protesters didn't play ball, they ended up eating tear gas and flash bangs anyway. The LAPD rightly characterized Saturday's protest as peaceful. The POLICE said that.

The bottom line: this whole thing would have evaporated quickly if left alone. Trump doesn't want that. He wants the spectacle and media circus, so he escalated the situation against the advisement of every local government entity and in contradiction with the narrative of local law enforcement. 

I'm probably not going to post any further on this topic (I know better than to expect that any hearts and/or minds will be changed) but I'll just leave you with this reminder to not believe everything you see on the internet. Verify everything. The disinformation machine is already working overtime.

^That acct has over 300k followers, btw, and it's not actually affiliated with the real DHS. It's just some right wing nut who likes to post inflammatory propaganda and misinformation.

Edited June 9 by Phoenix_person

[NeuroTypical]

38 minutes ago, Phoenix_person said:

If this wasn't an insurrection, then neither is what's happening in LA.

You can tell if something is an insurrection or not, by one of two things happening: 
- A government is overthrown.
- People are convicted of seditious conspiracy or treason or some related charge. 

For J6, the govt was not overthrown, and neither Trump nor his people were convicted of anything.   Out of folks who were there, ~1500 people were charged with something, over 1000 have pled out or been convicted of something.  Perhaps ~500 misdemeanors, maybe ~500 felonies.   Including two seditious conspiracy convictions:

Enrique Tarrio: Conviction: Seditious conspiracy Sentence: 22 years
Stewart Rhodes: Conviction: Seditious conspiracy Sentence: 18 years

So yes, Tarrio and Rhodes were attempting to carry out an insurrection, and were tried and convicted of it.  Trump never claimed them as 'his people'.  Yes, J6 was "an insurrection".  Just not one led by Trump.  T was riling up crowds to march on the capitol, which is a foundational core thing a free people get to do.  Pelosi was in charge of police presence and safety, and she made the wrong call for who should be there.   

So yeah, J6 had people attempting an insurrection, and here in LA we have something roughly as serious happening too.  Left wing violence is a different flavor, more crowdsourced, less driven by some popular person or persuasive single voice.  But yeah, there are plenty of people to arrest, try, convict, sentence, and imprison.   I'm unconcerned with Trump's blather about "retaking" LA that has "fallen".  I'm unconcerned with the endless tsunami of lies spread by all sides on social media.  (Well, I am concerned, but it's always there, all the time.) 

When I look at what Newsom and the LA mayor are telling their people, they are pleading for calm.  They are mobilizing local police forces to deal with rioters.   The federal forces are protecting federal buildings.  ICE is serving warrants for specific individuals. 

Here's what kicked everything off:

These are some of the illegal immigrants DHS came to get: 

 

@Phoenix_person, are you willing to defend any of these people's right to be in this country?  Or say ICE/DHS should have not gone for them?

Edited June 9 by NeuroTypical

[LDSGator]

10 minutes ago, NeuroTypical said:

J6 had people attempting an insurrection

It was the Temu version of an insurrection. Not being funny-it was useless. 

[NeuroTypical]

4 minutes ago, LDSGator said:

It was the Temu version of an insurrection. Not being funny-it was useless. 

Insurrections only have two possible outcomes.  They either succeed or fail.   Right?  I mean, yes, I doubt anyone knew what they would have actually done if they had captured Pence and Pelosi and all them.  Probably not hurt anyone.  The lack of firearm charges and convictions point to that.  Maybe at worst, they might have had some sort of hostage standoff ending in a higher death toll. 

And what is the point of the LA weekend?  If the rioters had accomplished every goal all of them had, what would things look like?  I'm guessing general lawlessness, illegal criminals not being deported, many things on fire and burned into ashes, and a weakened Trump administration who stops deporting illegal criminals.  

Let's think about one, then the other.  Then the first one again.  Then the second.   J6, LA '25 riots.  If we try, we can do it.  There are comparisons and differences.  We can apply similar standards of justice.  We don't need to dig in an entrench behind "our guy" or "our side" - it's ok to be on the side of the law.

Edited June 9 by NeuroTypical

[LDSGator]

1 minute ago, NeuroTypical said:

Insurrections only have two possible outcomes.  They either succeed or fail.   Right?

We must all hang together, or assuredly we shall all hang separately. 

[Carborendum]

I guess we'll see.

[Carborendum]

1 hour ago, Phoenix_person said:

If this wasn't an insurrection, then neither is what's happening in LA. You're not going to convince me otherwise.

You know, one thing you didn't bring up is what flags were being flown during those... "events."

[Phoenix_person]

19 minutes ago, NeuroTypical said:

are you willing to defend any of these people's right to be in this country?  Or say ICE/DHS should have not gone for them?

A couple of them don't seem all that different from some of the guys I used to rub shoulders with in San Antonio kitchens and bars. The only real difference is that those guys had citizenship. They're not the type of people who require agents in armored vehicles dressed for Fallujah. I'm all for getting criminals off the street. I think we can do that without the very conspicuous show of force. All of Saturday's provocation came from the feds. They were gassing peaceful protesters for no reason. The escalation is the fault of the federal agencies, and Trump's reaction makes it all seem very coordinated. The show of force just isn't proportional to the stated justification.

There are still many on the left who believe that these brute tactics against immigrants is a precursor to a militarized police state. Trump just had the second worst first 100 days approval rating we've seen since WWII, second only to Trump 45. A significant portion of his following was only on board because Elon was, and Elon seems to no longer be on board. One of the critical demographics that helped him beat Biden is also turning on him. Trump needs a distraction. America currently has no major conflicts overseas, so the most effective distraction would be domestic. Something like a big show of federal force against immigrants and an unruly sanctuary city a week before his big birthday parade. Something like that. Yes, I know I'm bordering on conspiracy theory, but I feel like I'm in good company in that department.

[Carborendum]

1 hour ago, NeuroTypical said:

You can tell if something is an insurrection or not, by one of two things happening: 
- A government is overthrown.
- People are convicted of seditious conspiracy or treason or some related charge. 

The legal definition:

Quote

• Insurrection: Defined under 18 U.S.C. § 2383, insurrection refers to any act of rising against the authority of the state or its laws. Legally, it’s the violent uprising against governmental authority. This includes taking up arms or otherwise actively opposing the government’s power and lawful authority.

• Rebellion: Often used interchangeably with insurrection, rebellion has a similar connotation. It typically refers to a more organized and sustained effort to overthrow or seriously destabilize government authority.

This doesn't really take into account anything about getting arrested/convicted.  It doesn't even say anything about overthrow (as we normally think of it).  It is the violent opposition to lawful government authority or power.  This doesn't necessarily mean we're taking weapons to meet with government officials and kill them until we get what we want (which would certainly fit the definition). 

So, did the violence of Jan 6th satisfy the definition?  In my mind, no.  Minimal property damage.  Disruption to any normal processes were mostly begun by government officials trying to egg the crowd on. 

To hear it from my neighbor (who was there) no one really did anything that could be considered a "disruption" until some of the people (whom we believe to be plants) began egging people on. 

Then, the police stopped them (which should have been the end of it).  But then they began using very strong-arm tactics to arrest EVERYone, even those who were only hanging out.  People began to panic and run all over the place.  That's what turned it into a slugfest.

No bombs.  No molatov cocktails.  No explosives to speak of excep the only bullet that killed someone -- from a police officer who killed Ashli Babbit for looking through a broken window.

NOTE: I wasn't there.  But she was an eyewitness who got out of there as soon as she started seeing some trouble.

Call it an insurrection if you want.  But it doesn't seem to meet the legal definition.

Edited June 9 by Carborendum

[Carborendum]

 

[Phoenix_person]

This all escalated because the feds brought more force than they needed to a couple of stings and drew a crowd. But the seeds have been being planted for weeks by this administration. This anger towards ICE/DHS didn't appear in a vaccuum. Sure, these people have always hated cops and especially feds, but that's not what this is about. This is about accused criminals not getting their day in court before being sent to prisons under dictatorial regimes. This is about our government throwing away the rule book.

https://www.cato.org/blog/stephen-miller-says-we-can-suspend-habeas-corpus-because-we-are-being-invaded-own-words-belie

The Cato Institute is pretty far from being a leftist org, btw.

 

 

When the people who are supposed to enforce the law start breaking it to rip mothers away from their children, what incentive is there for the public to be law-abiding? So I guess my question to you is: at what point does the public have an obligation to get off the sideline in the face of government overreach? Is there a line for you? And if so, where is it? Forget parties and politics. What government action justifies disruptive pushback? Because from where I sit, we aren't far from circumstances that the 2A was written for. I don't want that any more than you do. I also don't want to live in an America where accused criminals don't get their day in court. "Innocent until proven guilty" is the law of the land. That's what the Right was saying when "Me too" happened, wasn't it? If they can take that away from undocumented immigrants, they can do it to you and me. I have no faith that a president who has a long track record of being petty and vindictive won't take that step, especially if his Deputy Chief of Staff and DHS Secretary are both already on board.

One of those restaurant workers I mentioned did two years of a 12 year prison sentence after being falsely accused and convicted of raping a 6 year-old white girl. He got exonerated after new evidence came to light. He was a first-generation US citizen, a pothead, a gambling addict, and an overall good man. Truly one of the nicest guys I've ever met, even after enduring what convicted child rapists endure in prison. He's right up there with the former DC gang member and convicted murderer I served with in Iraq when I was 18. Heckuva guy, genuinely. Turned his life completely around. Where some people on this forum might see only criminals, I see people. I'm not naive. I know there are terrible people out there. I've probably been face-to-face with a few without even realizing it. I also know that terrible circumstances can often drive decent people to do terrible things. Our legal system exists to identify which is which, and we still get it wrong sometimes. I don't trust brutish government authority against any group of civilians, no matter what they allegedly did. Respect for the rule of law is supposed to be what makes us the good guys and them the bad guys, isn’t it?

Edited June 9 by Phoenix_person
I lied, I'm still posting

[LDSGator]

8 minutes ago, Phoenix_person said:

The Cato Institute is pretty far from being a leftist org, btw

Amen. My favorite think tank. 

[LDSGator]

I find rioting and destroying property appalling.  
 

First off, you have no right to damage things that are not yours, unless you are given permission to do so. 
 

Second, these businesses and homes are in your own hometown! Do you not realize that they won’t rebuild there and you’ve just damaged your own property value?!? These are your neighbors as well.
 

It’s repulsive.  

Edited June 9 by LDSGator

[NeuroTypical]

42 minutes ago, Phoenix_person said:

This all escalated because the feds brought more force than they needed to a couple of stings and drew a crowd.

Heh.  You told me you have a background in various community organizing efforts. Do you really believe this?  From what I can tell, having 50 people show up to shut down a freeway doesn’t spontaneously occur. An organized effort to call a bunch of cabs in order to pull the drivers out and set them on fire in order to block roads, takes more than a day or two of planning.  
 

Regardless of whether you believe what you just said or not, you are not the only person who occasionally frequents radical left-wing social media.

FYI: if folks are interested in spontaneously reacting to the “more force than needed“ coming tomorrow, here’s how you can get organized today:

 

The art of justifying left-wing violence is taught in an awful lot of books.  I’m sure whatever ends up happening tomorrow as this thing tries to spread across the country, will be blamed on something occurring earlier tomorrow.

[NeuroTypical]

4 minutes ago, LDSGator said:

these businesses and homes are in your own hometown! Do you not realize that they won’t rebuild there and you’ve just damaged your own property value?!? 

They call it Gazafication.  

[NeuroTypical]

2 hours ago, Carborendum said:

Legally, it’s the violent uprising against governmental authority. This includes taking up arms or otherwise actively opposing the government’s power and lawful authority.

J6 is literally the dictionary definition of that, my friend.  It become violent the first barricade they pushed past, the first window they broke, the first policeman they pushed past or assaulted as he shouted a lawful order.  And the government’s power and lawful authority that was being actively opposed, was the vice president and Congress ratifying the results of the election, in a way that Trump didn’t want.

Thank you for illustrating my point.

And, in my ongoing effort to make sure things are fair on both sides of stuff like this, just a reminder, that setting fires and interfering with ice agents as they try to arrest and detain, is the “government’s power unlawful authority“ that is being actively opposed over the weekend, And people are trying to spread it across the country right now.

 

[LDSGator]

8 minutes ago, NeuroTypical said:

They call it Gazafication.  

I call it several things. Which if I said here you’d break out the banhammer in three seconds, and with good cause. 

[Carborendum]

Credit to Gov Newsom!?

[LDSGator]

But having said all that, deploying the military and giving them orders to act like the LAPD is a bridge too far.

[Carborendum]

6 minutes ago, NeuroTypical said:

J6 is literally the dictionary definition of that, my friend.  It become violent the first barricade they pushed past, the first window they broke, the first policeman they pushed past or assaulted as he shouted a lawful order.  And the government’s power and lawful authority that was being actively opposed, was the vice president and Congress ratifying the results of the election, in a way that Trump didn’t want.

Thank you for illustrating my point.

I believe this narrative is the result of a lack of transparency about exactly what happened and when.  We all get our own versions of what actually happened.  So, it is no wonder that we have different charcterizations of it.

• I submit that the vast majority of people at J6 were there to simply peacefully protest.  They had no intention of actually being involved in anything violent.  Many left when it got out of hand.  Some got swept up in the moment.  But the majority simply didn't know what was going on until they started arresting people.
• I submit that the vast majority of the riots in California were planned to include violence against government agents, lots of property damage -- including the use of explosives to drive their point home that the rights of foreign interests were more important than the continuity of a functional government.

[Phoenix_person]

30 minutes ago, NeuroTypical said:

Heh.  You told me you have a background in various community organizing efforts. Do you really believe this?  From what I can tell, having 50 people show up to shut down a freeway doesn’t spontaneously occur. An organized effort to call a bunch of cabs in order to pull the drivers out and set them on fire in order to block roads, takes more than a day or two of planning.  
 

Regardless of whether you believe what you just said or not, you are not the only person who occasionally frequents radical left-wing social media.

Minnesota organizers have spent the last few months scrambling to set up rapid and secure communication channels for rapid action. We've already talked to mayors, police chiefs, and city council members about their level of cooperation with federal agencies conducting immigration stings, as well as their protest response protocols. I personally know some of the people who showed up in Minneapolis last week to yell "Get the F--- out" at ICE. It's called "community" organizing for a reason. Modern tech, my friend. Is it really that hard to believe that word got out in a city of 10M people with cell phones? We've been preparing for something like this since November. The hope is always that things stay peaceful, but we've all asked ourselves the same questions I asked Carb above about where the line is. And like clockwork, it was the forces of government that escalated a non-violent protest into a national spectacle.

I'm going to put my tinfoil hat back on and remind you that the Biden Administration had a solid immigration bill that was endorsed by Border Patrol and had enough GOP support to pass. Trump single-handedly killed it, and now the Marines are getting involved.

Edited June 9 by Phoenix_person

[mirkwood]

4 hours ago, LDSGator said:

The military being deployed seems a bit extreme. If Joe Biden did this the right would be losing their minds in rage, though they won’t admit it now.  

 

Strike through because I disagree.

I asked my co worker who is a Colonel in the National Guard.  He was not sure if it was legal but was going to get back to me.  If it is not legal, unlike the left, I will scream at my own side for being wrong.

[mirkwood]

If you are incapable of seeing the difference between these two pictures you should either

a. Educate yourself

or

b. Admit you are nothing less than partisan