How deep do you believe?

[Misshalfway]

Of course I have emotions, maybe not to the same degree as most people, but logically I can attribute them to the chemicals being released in my brain as programmed response to certain stimulus.

Logic doesn't apply to every aspect of my life, but it does apply to all things in my brain accepted as "probably true."

Do you believe you have a spirit inside of you? I believe we are all spirits enjoying a physical experience. So all that physiology you describe is part of my experience. There is a place inside of myself..... where I meet myself. Where I can talk to myself. Have you ever felt that place? This is the place I feel spiritual things. It is outside of my logic and my emotion. It is a place where everything gets quiet and I just listen.

Do you believe you have a conscience? Good vs. Bad, right vs. wrong? If so, does that sense about you originate in your logical thought? What about wisdom? I believe we each have a logical side, and emotional side, and a wise brain in the middle that kind sorts out the imbalances of the two sides.

And I just have to add this last thought. I think that God is purposely holding out on us. We could run around with our heads cut off trying to "prove" everything. And He would just laugh. Because it is not part of his plan to give us all the answers at once. We wouldn't be able to receive it all anyway. Milk before the meat. God says, "I will try the faith of my people." (Third Nephi, at the end). He doesn't give us all the knowledge we think we need. But He does tell us how he works. As you read, Look for God's pattern. How does He deal with Nephi and Jacob and Alma ( who was a real poop for a while.) I know God tries my faith all the time. And I look up and say, "Did you have to try so hard?".:)

[THIRDpersonviewer]

For me, I have to be shown certain proof. I Have to know something without question. Otherwise I do not feel like wasting my time with it. After, studying I know I can learn what is right by the power of the Holy Ghost. That is the only "proof" needed and the only "proof" that can be given. If you feel it is not enough, then you begin walking sight. Meaning you cannot trust the providences of God, and must therefore look to other sources to know what is right. I used to ask myself, "why I believe?" This made me think. It made me think of the seriousness of what we do in this life.

I used to study physics a lot in high school and it strengthened whatever testimony I had. Then as I began to learn more about the gospel, I just found(on a personal conviction) that I believe in science less and less. Taking a leap of faith is more rewarding than you can imagine.

Now where do I stand in how deep I go. "I Believe in Christ; so come what may." I believe so firmly that Jesus is The Christ, that He will protect me, that I can go into the world and be oblivious to the workings of the world. I used to(when I first heard it) think that statement was so arrogant. I have it on an itunes playlist that runs on my laptop quite reguarly. Anyways, I would sing along and when I get there I would sometimes sing it, depending on how I felt. Sometimes I felt that way and other times I didn't want to be "arrogant." I noticed a decrease in the Spirit in my life if I didn't sing those words. It was like living in fear of what may happen to me, but when you truly Believe in Christ there is no need to worry. Now I always sing it when it comes along because I trust in Him so much, that this is how I feel.

Besides, why not go to the perfect source of truth, rather than the garbled message from the imperfections and pride of men(science)?

[THIRDpersonviewer]

I would also like to point out some quotes by Elder McConkie.

"I believe in Christ; so come what may," -I Believe in Christ hymn. 134

"If we are to have faith like Enoch and Elijah, the we must believe what they believed. Know what they knew. And Live as they lived." -The Purifying Power of Gethsemane(last talk)

"Enoch and Elijah obtained their great faith through righteousness."-Oscar McConkie(his father, actually but relevant)(Enoch and Elijah were translated people and had to have faith to attain that state) -Highlights from his life and teachings. (Biography on McConkie by Dennis B. Horne)

"Now, our first obligation is to believe in Christ and accept him literally and completely and fully for what he is. We believe in Christ when we believe the doctrine he teaches, the words that he speaks, the message that he proclaims. When he came in the flesh as Mary's son, the account says that he "went about . . . preaching the gospel of the kingdom" (Matthew 9:35), meaning that his message was a revelation to people in that day of the plan of salvation, of the things that they had to do to overcome the world, to perfect their lives, and to qualify to go back with him to the presence of the everlasting Father.

So, first of all, we believe in Christ. And the test as to whether we believe in him is whether we believe his words and whether we believe those whom he hath sent--the apostles and prophets of all the ages. And then, having believed, we have the obligation of conforming to the truths that we have thus learned. If we do conform we begin to grow in spiritual graces. We add to our faith virtue, and to virtue knowledge, and to knowledge temperance and patience and godliness and all of the other attributes and characteristics that are written in the revelations (see 2 Peter 1:5*7). So step by step and degree by degree we begin to become like God our Heavenly Father.

We do not work out our salvation in a moment; it doesn't come to us in an instant, suddenly. Gaining salvation is a process. Paul says, "Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling" (Philippians 2:12). To some members of the Church who had been baptized and who were on the course leading to eternal life, he said, "Now is our salvation nearer than when we believed" (Romans 13:11). That is, "We have made some progress along the straight and narrow path. We are going forward, and if we continue in that direction, eternal life will be our everlasting reward." "-Jesus Christ and Him Crucified

- This is how I define belief. You know and believe something so firmly that you change your life to live in accordance with the truth.

[tree]

i know that Heavenly Father = is the creator of our spirits. Jesus Christ is = the first son of God and my savior , and soon coming king. and the Holy Ghost is the spirit of truth , that guides me and tells me when some thing is right or wrong. i will never trust MAN or MACHINE . if its from God , the Holy Spirit will tell me the truth of it!!!!!!! and the Holy Spirit has already told me the truth of the church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints and our scripture. there is always evidence of truth, just because YOU haven't found it doesnt mean it doesnt exist. Gods written word and the burning in my bossom and the fact that i am in fact being healed of my infirmities and have PEACE in my whole being and the numerous miracles and things i personally have EXPERIENCED ,, is proof enough to me that my Heavenly Father exist and even though his word was written by man,, it was written by men under the influence of the Holy Spirit and there is a lot of stuff i read that the Spirit tells me is not true and the scriptures are all true . some are or have been translated wrong and even left out ,, (not by our church ,, that is a part of the reason our church is the real church ) and some scripture hasn't even been revealed yet !!!! the God Head cannot lie, therefore the Holy Spirit would not tell me some thing is true and then tell me it wasn't, i always knew there was more explanations to the holy bible and some things just didn't make sense , THE SPIRIT TOLD ME THIS and when i found the church ,, i found the answers,, THE SPIRIT ALSO TOLD ME THIS!!( there is NO WAY to ever convince me otherwise) i was 10 when the spirit told me in my spirit that there was something missing in the bible,, and it wasn't until i was 34 yrs old that i found the rest of it in the book of Mormon and LDS scriptures. does this answer your question ? please let me know....tree

[ztodd]

...

I've looked at both sides and read a great deal of arguments and from my perspective the stories in the BoM are completely unsubstantiated by genetic and archeological data. This is not to say it proves they didn't happen, just that I (personally)haven't found any convincing evidence that they did happen.

Are you looking for it? Check out bookofmormonevidence.org and buy their DVD- we got it and watched it- there's a lot of evidence out there.

...What I do want to discuss here is the question of "how deep do you believe?" Is there anything that could convince you that the BoM is not true?

No.

...If there were convincing scientific evidence (convincing to you, whatever that may take) that the BoM did not happen, would it change any of your beliefs?

Impossible.

...If a machine were invented that allowed you to view events that happened thousands of years ago and you found out there was no trace of the Nephites or Lamanites in the Americas, would that change any of your beliefs?

Impossible.

...Why or why not? At what point does faith simply not cut it for you in the face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary?

There will never be overwhelming evidence to the contrary.

...Many people I've encountered say that they have faith and that nothing could sway them from it. Perhaps I just don't understand because I can't fathom believing anything with unquestioning certainty, but I would really like to hear the opinions of people here.

You'll understand once you get your overwhelming spiritual witness. I hope you're seeking for it.

The Spirit of God speaks to our spirit in our hearts and in our minds. God can answer you with a burst of enlightenment where everything all of a sudden becomes clear. But usually not until you are prepared after sufficient study and meditation and prayer, and also acting by faith. Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. It is demonstrated by action. Act as if it is true, hoping it is true. Then the evidence, the witness, follows.

We just went to the annual Mesa Easter Pageant at the Mesa temple - what a wonderful witness it is for me every year.

[WANDERER]

Ummm, I haven't read very much yet. Reading it on the internet is a bit of an ask. Not ready to get my own copy ...but perhaps will order one (the no-strings attached solution...all the way from the U.S....I'm under the impression that they personally deliver free copies? Rumour mill LOL).

When I opened/clicked to page one I didn't read it as a historical book, I opened it and read it like I would the Bible. Occasionally a few proofs turn up for the OT and NT in a historical sense and that's great, but there's a lot that doesn't have that.

As a historical record of Ancient America..I don't think I could do that reading it the first time through, that would be distracting. Either it has spiritual truth or it doesn't...that's what I'm expecting to find in a religious text. Historical proof is a side issue. It may become more important down the track..or not.

[Maya]

How strong I believe... strong! How can I know.... well I was born stubborn...my husband says I am the most stubborn person in the world...I think he is! And looks like the youngest has enherited oss both!

Like .. I think it was Missy who said ... it is a question of to decide to believe! I decided and I am mighty stubborn. I also believe, that IF it was not truth God had put a stop to this a LONG time ago! But look around you... we are just growing and growing!!

I believe my husband loves me and my kids... even though the sc logic might go against that sometimes.... but it in reality it is the human error. I am glad that he wanted to marry me forever, even though the seal is broken at the moment, but I do believe everythig will work out at the end.

If I were you I would decide to give it a try. When you look at the LDS families and those partly LDS famileies and those non LDS families... Is there ANYTHING you might think that LDS families have more of in their life, than others? Anything you would like to have in YOUR family? Do you think it will work out between you two so none of you have to give in a bit??

Locigally thinking.... there is no logic in marrying out of "faith".

[Hemidakota]

I was not saying that there exists evidence AGAINST the BoM, I was simply saying that I haven't found any emperical evidence FOR the BoM. In the hypothetical question I was asking IF there were overwhemling scientific evidence specifically against the BoM (there is not, hence the hypothetical part) if it would change your views.

Interesting, but you did not answer my question. To answer your reversal of my question, I wouldn't be shocked, I would simply say, thank you God, there is the evidence I've been looking for to believe in something. So how would you react to my original question?

My true intentions of being on this forum are nothing more or less than I have stated before, to seek the truth.

First you need to gain a testimony, the rest [truths] will be given over time based your maturity in the gospel. I can tell you, there were no pre-Adamites, this earth is nothing more than remodeled world that was previous discarded and reused, animals adopt to every new earth [man does not] and explains the variation of species for each world [John spoke briefly on this], and the big bang is partly correct. Now, what I have spoken if revealed with clarity cannot be had in any current works. My point, GOD does reveal mysterious to HIS children.

If you have that strong desire to know the truths, whether in this world or others, make a change in your life and seek out Savior vice dogmas of world [Lucifer].

[DigitalShadow]

Besides, why not go to the perfect source of truth, rather than the garbled message from the imperfections and pride of men(science)?

I find this statement fascinating. From my point of view it sounds more like religion is the "garbled message from the imperfections and pride of men" rather than science. How else do you explain the multitude of religions all arrogant enough to say that they know the one truth? How else can you explain all the killing that has taken place in God's name? Obviously not all people claiming to have knowledge from the "perfect source of truth" are correct and have garbled the original message (if there even was one) with their own pride and desire to know the one truth.

It boggles my mind how people can blatantly disregard science (not just a few theories, but the practice of science in general) in favor of divine feelings because they don't want to think they might be wrong. Science is not the practice of pride, individual scientists may be prideful and flawed, but science itself claims to know nothing and only seeks to better understand the world. Religion is the one full of pride claiming to know all the answers and to have received them directly from the allmighty meaning they are unquestionable. You think "well it's ok because we really did get our answers from God." Yeah, that's what they all say, forgive me if I'm a bit skeptical.

[Misshalfway]

I find this statement fascinating. From my point of view it sounds more like religion is the "garbled message from the imperfections and pride of men" rather than science. How else do you explain the multitude of religions all arrogant enough to say that they know the one truth? How else can you explain all the killing that has taken place in God's name? Obviously not all people claiming to have knowledge from the "perfect source of truth" are correct and have garbled the original message (if there even was one) with their own pride and desire to know the one truth.

It boggles my mind how people can blatantly disregard science (not just a few theories, but the practice of science in general) in favor of divine feelings because they don't want to think they might be wrong. Science is not the practice of pride, individual scientists may be prideful and flawed, but science itself claims to know nothing and only seeks to better understand the world. Religion is the one full of pride claiming to know all the answers and to have received them directly from the allmighty meaning they are unquestionable. You think "well it's ok because we really did get our answers from God." Yeah, that's what they all say, forgive me if I'm a bit skeptical.

I hear you on this one.

[DigitalShadow]

Do you believe you have a spirit inside of you? I believe we are all spirits enjoying a physical experience. So all that physiology you describe is part of my experience. There is a place inside of myself..... where I meet myself. Where I can talk to myself. Have you ever felt that place? This is the place I feel spiritual things. It is outside of my logic and my emotion. It is a place where everything gets quiet and I just listen.

I would really like to believe I have a spirit inside me, it's a pleasant thought, but honestly I would have to say that I think probably not. I think that most likely what we know as consciousness is simply our own unique neural pattern in our brain. Why do I think such a depressing thought? If personality and memories and emotions were really more than just in our brains, you wouldn't be able to see such dramatic difference when part of the brain dies. If emotions really came from our immortal soul, they wouldn't be affected by horomones.

Do you believe you have a conscience? Good vs. Bad, right vs. wrong? If so, does that sense about you originate in your logical thought? What about wisdom? I believe we each have a logical side, and emotional side, and a wise brain in the middle that kind sorts out the imbalances of the two sides.

Yes, I have a conscience and ultimately I think it originates in logical thought. I can tell what is right and what is wrong by examining the consequences of my actions, if it affects people negatively it is wrong. It's really quite simple.

And I just have to add this last thought. I think that God is purposely holding out on us. We could run around with our heads cut off trying to "prove" everything. And He would just laugh. Because it is not part of his plan to give us all the answers at once. We wouldn't be able to receive it all anyway. Milk before the meat. God says, "I will try the faith of my people." (Third Nephi, at the end). He doesn't give us all the knowledge we think we need. But He does tell us how he works. As you read, Look for God's pattern. How does He deal with Nephi and Jacob and Alma ( who was a real poop for a while.) I know God tries my faith all the time. And I look up and say, "Did you have to try so hard?".:)

I sincerely hope you are right.

[Guest tomk]

DigitalShadow:

You'll never receive an answer that will satisfy you in these forums. We're fallen men and women. We have good intentions, but we cannot give you that surety you seek. Only God can do that. If you refuse to accept that, then God does not have much means to work with you, for He works with us THROUGH our feelings primarily, not purely through what the world defines as logical or rational. God does not work by irrational means, but He does work extra-rationally.

3 Behold, I would exhort you that when ye shall read these things, if it be wisdom in God that ye should read them, that ye would remember how merciful the Lord hath been unto the children of men, from the creation of Adam even down until the time that ye shall receive these things, and ponder it in your hearts.

4 And when ye shall receive these things, I would exhort you that ye would ask God, the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ, if these things are not true; and if ye shall ask with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ, he will manifest the truth of it unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost.

5 And by the power of the Holy Ghost ye may know the truth of all things.

also:

2 Ne. 9: 42

42 And whoso knocketh, to him will he open; and the wise, and the learned, and they that are rich, who are puffed up because of their learning, and their wisdom, and their riches—yea, they are they whom he despiseth; and save they shall cast these things away, and consider themselves fools before God, and come down in the depths of humility, he will not open unto them.

Only you can answer, for yourself, if you are submitting to God's program for revealing truth to you. God's ways are not our ways. His thoughts are not our thoughts. That is why the rational, logical approach will never yield the answers you seek. You must be willing to submit to God's program and methods for revealing truth to you.

I wish you well in your efforts to find truth. The "rational process" is wonderful, and yields many fruits. I'm just not so sure it is the best way to receive what God has ready to show you and reveal unto you. You don't try to remove a bolt with screwdriver. You need a socket wrench or a pair of pliers. Use the right tools to discover God's truth and He will begin to open up unto you.

[skalenfehl]

tomk gave the perfect and ultimate response. The above promise of Moroni is akin to the scientific method, but it is more specific from God. It is the ultimate experiment for each individual with very specific requirements to achieve the ultimate result.

[DigitalShadow]

You'll never receive an answer that will satisfy you in these forums. We're fallen men and women. We have good intentions, but we cannot give you that surety you seek. Only God can do that. If you refuse to accept that, then God does not have much means to work with you, for He works with us THROUGH our feelings primarily, not purely through what the world defines as logical or rational. God does not work by irrational means, but He does work extra-rationally.

If the only way for me to find God is through feelings, then I will have to remain without Him until I die and find out for myself if there is nothingness or some kind of God to welcome me with open arms. I simply can't justify to myself unyielding faith based only on feelings when I see so many of my fellow man misled by the very same kind of feelings.

I've come to realize that I won't receive certainty or faith from this forum or anywhere else, but I still enjoy discussing the subjects and seeing other people's viewpoints on religion and faith.

[Guest tomk]

If the only way for me to find God is through feelings, then I will have to remain without Him until I die and find out for myself if there is nothingness or some kind of God to welcome me with open arms. I simply can't justify to myself unyielding faith based only on feelings when I see so many of my fellow man misled by the very same kind of feelings.

Well, God's promise is that He will not lead us astray, that His voice of counsel is the way home to Him.

I am not requiring you to believe in things which are not seen which are true. It is God who is requiring that of you. You will receive no witness until AFTER the trial of your faith. That's the way it works!

I don't want to offend you, or be all doom and gloom, or judge you. But I do feel to warn you about some things.

If you wait until you die to see God and know that He is real -- well, it's too late by then. The test is kinda over by then. Missionary work in the Spirit World is reserved principly for those who did NOT have a chance to find and follow the gospel during mortality. If you reject it during mortality and then accept it afterwards, the Terrestrial Kingdom will be where you're headed. Again, only God knows what is in your heart. You can wordsmith in these forums till the cows come home. You can justify your beliefs to anyone who will listen. But in your heart, that deep place that only God knows -- you cannot lie about that. You cannot deceive God.

I've come to realize that I won't receive certainty or faith from this forum or anywhere else, but I still enjoy discussing the subjects and seeing other people's viewpoints on religion and faith.

That's nice and all -- but where it really gets exciting is when it leaves the realm of discussion and become real, actual faith.

The gospel of Christ is not an intellectual exercise. It was never intended to be "discussed" only -- but to be applied to our daily lives. It is a LIVING faith, not the realm of pure academia. It is a gospel of service and DOING.

I'm not judging you. At least, I don't mean to. All I know is what you write about. I think it's great that you come here to ask questions. It's what these forums help do. But one thing these forums can't do is give you the soul-deep answers I think you are wanting. Like I said -- that is God's domain.

I leave you in His capable hands.

Tom

[tree]

when it is time for you to die (if you don't die suddenly for what ever reason) on your death bed , then will be the moment of truth . most who claim they don't believe in God , at the time they go to give up the ghost they generally call on the name of Jesus and out to Heavenly Father. so if you don't receive Christ in this world, after death will be to late because you very well have been already given the chance in this life time,,, i just want to say nice talking to you , you seem sincere and are very scientific , i wish you all the best !!!!!!! tree

[tree]

tomk we both in general wrote practically the same thing to DS. i hope its not the end for him, it scares me to think that he doesn't believe in God at all. i feel a deep sadness for him.

[DigitalShadow]

Well, God's promise is that He will not lead us astray, that His voice of counsel is the way home to Him.

Well I think He failed on that one since there are many people who followed their feelings and committed attrocities in the name of God. They honestly felt that God told them to do such things, why would God allow that to happen if feelings are the only way to "communicate" with him? How can I trust such an unreliable source?

I am not requiring you to believe in things which are not seen which are true. It is God who is requiring that of you. You will receive no witness until AFTER the trial of your faith. That's the way it works!

Things which are not seen which are true... yet there are so many things that are not seen, how is one to decide what is true? Everyone tells me to look within, but there are billions of people who look within and see different answers. I find it far more likely that they simply find what they want to find rather than all of them tapping into some universal truth.

I don't want to offend you, or be all doom and gloom, or judge you. But I do feel to warn you about some things.

If you wait until you die to see God and know that He is real -- well, it's too late by then. The test is kinda over by then. Missionary work in the Spirit World is reserved principly for those who did NOT have a chance to find and follow the gospel during mortality. If you reject it during mortality and then accept it afterwards, the Terrestrial Kingdom will be where you're headed. Again, only God knows what is in your heart. You can wordsmith in these forums till the cows come home. You can justify your beliefs to anyone who will listen. But in your heart, that deep place that only God knows -- you cannot lie about that. You cannot deceive God.

I've received the same warning from nearly every other religion though. You say that it is a test, but I say that if it is a test, the only logical answer would be not to assume He is communicating with you since so many other people are led astray by those assumptions. I'm not trying to "cheat" the system with wordsmithing or justification, I'm just honestly looking for answers the best way I know how.

That's nice and all -- but where it really gets exciting is when it leaves the realm of discussion and become real, actual faith.

The gospel of Christ is not an intellectual exercise. It was never intended to be "discussed" only -- but to be applied to our daily lives. It is a LIVING faith, not the realm of pure academia. It is a gospel of service and DOING.

I'm doing what I feel is right, that is what I always do. It is not in my nature to simply accept things without question, I find that in general true things stand up to questioning quite well.

I'm not judging you. At least, I don't mean to. All I know is what you write about. I think it's great that you come here to ask questions. It's what these forums help do. But one thing these forums can't do is give you the soul-deep answers I think you are wanting. Like I said -- that is God's domain.

I'm still waiting for God's answers, as much as I try, I feel nothing.

I do thank you for your time though. Even if I can't find soul-deep answers here as you say, I can discuss with intelligent people that have different opinions which gives good opportunity for learning.

[DigitalShadow]

most who claim they don't believe in God , at the time they go to give up the ghost they generally call on the name of Jesus and out to Heavenly Father.

I believe that is just an urban legend, and the people who do that were simply denying their birth religion out of a rebellious nature while deep down "knowing" that it was the "truth." I was never indoctrinated into a religion at a young age so I find it highly unlikely that will be the case for me or many other atheists I know.

Your myth goes along with the "no atheists in foxholes" myth which I find rather offensive, and there are actually very few things that I find offensive.

[Guest tomk]

DigitalShadow:

I guess that is what I don't understand about your posts.

Why do you keep coming to man for what only God can reveal to you?

Why do you fault us for failing to prove to you what only God can prove to you?

Proving something true or false, in these forums, does not MAKE it true or false in God's eyes.

I guess that is my point. Posting in these forums is fine -- but ultimately all anyone in here can do is discuss, discuss, discuss -- and then point you to God. Not because we don't have answers to your questions, but because only God can reveal them to you. Only God can write them upon your heart. Only God can convince you. It is not my job, or the Church's job, or anyone else's job, to convince you of anything. Not only do we not have the ability...it's not our place.

5 And by the power of the Holy Ghost ye may know the truth of all things.

NOT:

5 And by the power of [Tom's logic and convincing words] ye may know the truth of all things.

That is why I predict that, while you may find it satisfying to DISCUSS DISCUSS DISCUSS all of this -- you'll never get any answers here. And if we did convince you by our words that we are "true" -- I would fear and tremble knowing that -- for if you are converted intellectually, you can be unconverted intellectually. But the witness of the Holy Ghost is much more powerful. You cannot turn from that without knowing that you are doing so.

[DigitalShadow]

Why do you keep coming to man for what only God can reveal to you?.

Because God is not talking to me, and furthermore if he only communicates with feelings, how do I distinguish God talking to me from a delusion of God talking to me, which a lot of people obviously suffer from since they can't all be right. You say only God can tell me how to distinguish Him from a delusion but He can only communicate with me in ways that seem like a delusion. Do you see my dilemma here? Am I the only one that sees a problem with this?

Why do you fault us for failing to prove to you what only God can prove to you?

I do not fault you for anything or asking you to "prove" anything, I'm just trying to make sense of everything.

Proving something true or false, in these forums, does not MAKE it true or false in God's eyes.

And blindly believing something is true or false does not make it true or false either.

I guess that is my point. Posting in these forums is fine -- but ultimately all anyone in here can do is discuss, discuss, discuss -- and then point you to God. Not because we don't have answers to your questions, but because only God can reveal them to you. Only God can write them upon your heart. Only God can convince you. It is not my job, or the Church's job, or anyone else's job, to convince you of anything. Not only do we not have the ability...it's not our place.

I am aware of all that.

5 And by the power of the Holy Ghost ye may know the truth of all things.

NOT:

5 And by the power of [Tom's logic and convincing words] ye may know the truth of all things.

How about:

5 And by the power of [your own logic and obvservation] ye may know the truth of [many] things.

I like that one better.

That is why I predict that, while you may find it satisfying to DISCUSS DISCUSS DISCUSS all of this -- you'll never get any answers here. And if we did convince you by our words that we are "true" -- I would fear and tremble knowing that -- for if you are converted intellectually, you can be unconverted intellectually. But the witness of the Holy Ghost is much more powerful. You cannot turn from that without knowing that you are doing so.

I'm still waiting for any kind of divine contact, so until then I "discuss, discuss, discuss"

[Guest tomk]

DigitalShadow:

Thank you for indulging in my questions as I try to "drill-down" into the core issue here.

I realize now that you have been saying it all along.

Tell me if the following is accurate about you

1) You sincerely want to know the truth.

2) You believe that someone can FEEL something is right and still be deceived, and you don't want to be deceived. You don't trust that feelings are the best way to know something is true.

3) Because of #2, you trust the 5 senses, you trust reason and logic (such that we are capable of) over feelings.

[Misshalfway]

Hey DS. I know that I am nobody from nowhere but, I'd love to hear what you think about the BofM while you read it. Is there a chance you feel any differently when you compare reading it to other books? I mean other than all the "thee's and thou's".

I guess I am wondering if it might help to recognize little ways the spirit works. I feel warmer or calmer inside when I am doing spiritual things. Or maybe you could contrast that with times when you knew you were in the wrong place, with the wrong people, or perhaps the feeling you had when you stole gum as a child and felt badly.

I feel it when I know a decision is wrong. Sometimes I feel a warning about something or someone. I get that a lot with my kids and their friends. I can pick up on the warning vibes. Last year, I had this feeling that we were going to move. The next week he got the sweetest job offer. I knew we would sell our house. I just had this sixth sense about it. And we did in a day.

Have you experienced anything like that?

BTW, you said that you know you are doing the right thing by questioning and searching. How do you know???

[DigitalShadow]

1) You sincerely want to know the truth.

True

2) You believe that someone can FEEL something is right and still be deceived, and you don't want to be deceived. You don't trust that feelings are the best way to know something is true.

True

3) Because of #2, you trust the 5 senses, you trust reason and logic (such that we are capable of) over feelings.

True

Now I think we are getting somewhere :)

[Guest tomk]

DS said:

Now I think we are getting somewhere :)

I tend to agree. I just had to stop for a minute and re-read what you have been saying.

First of all -- let me get this out of the way:

It's okay to fundamentally question everything you have ever believed in.

In fact, I would go as far as to say that you MUST do this very thing if you are to come to know God as He really is. This can even hold true for life-long members of the Church. I know it can be true for life-long members because it is true for me. I came to the point where I realized I had to OWN my knowledge for myself -- not just say I believe it because I was raised that way.

God does not want blind faith. He does not want mindless robots.

We have to start somewhere.

Do you believe in God?

Do you believe that God speaks to man?

Do you believe that God's words are written down, somewhere, anywhere?

Let's try that much. I'm just trying to establish common ground.

Tom