Tarot cards

[beefche]

They are? Who said?

Certainly not the Hasbro toy company, which owns the rights to the game...

Ouija Board instruction sheet

People watch too many scary movies.

It's not just a toy! You can use it to make some serious decisions.....

"In London in 1994, convicted murderer Stephen Young was granted a retrial after it was learned that four of the jurors had conducted a Ouija board seance and had "contacted" the murdered man, who had named Young as his killer. Young was convicted for a second time at his retrial and jailed for life." Linky

[Dravin]

Silly jurors, everyone know the proper Hasbro game to use to determine the murderer is Clue!

Edited November 8, 2011 by Dravin

[Magen_Avot]

First of all, thanks for this thread HEthePrimate, it's a good one for a lot of reasons.

Some great advice has been given about a subject most members would just freak out about, but it seems that some of it is being minimized or brushed aside. I mean this to be a more central approach to two opposite views, that being (1) Tarot cards are a ‘righteous’ method and ordained of God and the (2) ‘it’s of the devil’ approach. It may not play out that way in the end but that's my intention.

The Church Handbook of Instruction #1 doesn't anything to say about the subject of Tarot cards or the Ouija Board, at least that I could find. There have been statements over the last 40 years though, but I am unaware of official doctrine. If you are familiar with other statements I have made it probably won't surprise some of you that I’ve looked into Tarot cards once upon a time. To say I "dabbled” in it would be an over statement, however.

That said I acknowledge that we all have our agency to make our own choices; this is illustrated by the story of the war in heaven which was taught (at least) to me in church as a war of testimony. It’s interesting to think that in heaven 30% of all the sons and daughters of God would choose to go against Him, but they did. I really don’t expect things to be so different here on earth where we are separated from God. We all choose. Hopefully we choose while being more informed by the spirit, scriptures and the prophet. But we are human and not commanded in all things.

When I checked out Tarot cards I made a discovery and I have to say, they work. Well, “they” don’t do anything really as has been discussed. Rather, they are a tool that helps to ‘focus’ our faith and gifts to,… receive revelatory information as an example. If you find yourself caught on the “faith and gifts” part, I’d just say that it is sometimes difficult to find words that communicate well across boundaries of accepted understanding. But in this case it does require some faith and gifts of the spirit to be gifted at Tarot card reading. We all can also communicate spirit to spirit but that is another thread.

Lest you think I am taking sides with using Tarot cards, you are mistaken. I agree that they work and that they help focus our faith and gifts. But why use a child’s beach shovel to move a mountain when you can use a space based mega-transport system. Sorry, just trying to illustrate something . When a person prays, they are using a more powerful way of ‘tapping’ into revelation, even if it may require more work to get the answer. When the Priesthood is used to give a blessing the same thing occurs. To suggest that using Tarot cards is a divinely approved and appointed method to receive revelation is just incorrect, as we have the scriptures and words of the prophet that tell us acceptable ways to commune with God and to received inspiration, prophecy and revelation even if by burning bush (also another thread). The reality is that the cards are just lesser tools (I don’t mean that rudely;)) and our faith will not get stronger unless we really work it. Can you imagine Jesus Christ consulting the cards to answer you with? Also, to say that a “lack of proof against something is proof for it” is a stretch at best and only pacifies those who want it to be so. Also to compare the cards to the Urim and Thummim (which is biblical) seems to give the cards inferred legitimacy. Maybe this is a stretch to suggest that it’s like saying it’s ok to follow the devil because God made him and God doesn’t make junk (I think someone also made a point like this (?)). They are just a tool that man has found,… that’s all, and unnecessary at that. Remember,… don’t lean on the arm of man.

The Ouija Board; however, is not a tool like Tarot cards. It is a “game” (if you prefer that characterization) that ‘in fact’ invites unembodied spirits (Satan and/or his angels) and disembodied spirits (disobedient spirits of the dead) who lead us away from God. That is my experience, and, therefore, my opinion. Again, you have your agency.

I prefer to allow you your choice as God does not desire to “make” anyone do the right thing or “to command us in all things” and you have the ability to pray about it. I wonder if anyone has put the question (to the cards) of whether or not the cards are a tool God gave to lead us back to Him? If they were, they might have been mentioned by Moses. Frankly, you can use any tool that helps you focus, so why not just focus your faith with the greates tool,... your mind? Why did we leave grade school and graduate from High School if it was enough being there? Take the next step, graduate or rather, put on the whole armor of God and wield your gifts with real Godly power?

…just a thought.

Edited November 8, 2011 by Magen_Avot

[NeuroTypical]

People watch too many scary movies.

Or have person experience to know why its not a good toy. It is not.

The Ouija Board; however, is not a tool like Tarot cards. It is a “game” (if you prefer that characterization) that ‘in fact’ invites unembodied spirits (Satan and/or his angels) and disembodied spirits (disobedient spirits of the dead) who lead us away from God. That is my experience, and, therefore, my opinion.

I have to play the skeptic card here (no pun intended). I've seen or heard nothing but stories of people bringing their own confirmation bias to the table, and getting scared by their own emotional states.

My own experience with the Ouija board amounts to mainly on trying to bring my adolescent arm into as much physical contact as possible with my friend's older sister as we worked the little plastic message dealie. 14 was a fun age.

(I did "Light as a feather, stiff as a board, rise body rise" too - and it worked! Still doesn't have anything to do with the supernatural.)

Edited November 8, 2011 by Loudmouth_Mormon

[annewandering]

ok you asked for it. I hate to discuss it at all but I wanted to just warn people off the thing if they were thinking down those lines.

I am 61 years old. When I was a senior in high school a friend of mine brought one of those to school. We were seniors and a lot of being senior was sitting around while people did things getting us graduated. My graduating class had 18 kids in it 13 of which were girls.

Anyway we were sitting in the home ec room. Several long tables were lined up and we were just sitting around talking and laughing like kids do. I was third down on the right side of the first table. My friend with the thing was on the corner of the same side. She had said she had it and we laughed but I wasnt paying attention to her at this point and was turned to the next table talking to some other kids.

All at once a force just pushed at me like a tornado. At us all really. The force was overwhelming and so beyond evil the room darkens in here just thinking about it as I am typing. Which is why I very rarely talk about it at all. Next thing I knew I was on my feet running as fast as I could for the door along with the rest of the kids on the room. the room was filled with screaming and shrieks. I dont know if I was screaming or not. I just had to get away.

Afterwards people said it was mass hysteria but they werent there. Several of the girls were taken to the seminary teacher and I heard later they had to do some kind of blessing to get rid of whatever it was.We never discussed it more than a few sentences after that day.

For the next year I was terrified to sleep. The only thing that comforted me at all was to keep the Book of Mormon and Bible under my pillow where I could put my hand on it. I finally got to the point where I could sleep but I am not clear of it to this day.

Now you can laugh all you want but if you had felt that pure evil you would not ever want to be near anything that could bring it back again.

My friend and a couple other girls did use the thing behind my back. That I was told by her. That is when it happened.

I know there is a God and I know He is supremely good. One reason I know this is because I also know there is evil and it is supremely evil. So dark and horrifying there are not words for the uncleanness.

Please dont use these or anything like them to play games with. I dont care what toy company makes them they are not toys. You do not want to ever feel that same spirit that came into that home ec room. ever.

Edited November 8, 2011 by annewandering

[Magen_Avot]

I have to play the skeptic card here (no pun intended). I've seen or heard nothing but stories of people bringing their own confirmation bias to the table, and getting scared by their own emotional states.

My own experience with the Ouija board amounts to mainly on trying to bring my adolescent arm into as much physical contact as possible with my friend's older sister as we worked the little plastic message dealie. 14 was a fun age.

(I did "Light as a feather, stiff as a board, rise body rise" too - and it worked! Still doesn't have anything to do with the supernatural.)

To your comments, I would agree that some people would freak themselves out . I also agree that not everyone would experience the same thing or have "bad" experiences and can have "fun" experiences. I'm not talking about that (my own experience as a youth wasn't a bad one, but not my choice) and apologize I didn't speak more completely. It was a long entry as it was. I've never tried the board/feather thing though, but I don't have a 'supernatural' area in my mind where I put things like this so I agree with that too.

I think we are of different opinions generally and that is ok. I am not afraid of nor freaked out by the board, The bottom line is I accept your difference of opinion, but there are those who are inexpericenced in this and they should be informed enough to rely on the spirit... back to the don't lean on the arm of man thing. Still, some will "dabble" and some won't. And they don't need to IMO.

I was writing when annewandering posted and would say that her experience is one no one would want but risk everytime the board is used. I relate to her experience because of an experience I had at 11 yo. It is because of this I can recognize spirits where ever they are and no one knows what they are going to get with this.

Edited November 8, 2011 by Magen_Avot

[annewandering]

No one knows and that is the thing. If you had any idea you could be inviting such a horrible thing into your presence, even on the very off chance would any rational person risk that?

I hope not. theres lots of fun things in the world. It wont hurt to pass this one thing up. :)

[NeuroTypical]

I'm not laughing at anyone's experiences. I know evil exists. But I'm pretty sure it doesn't require eighteen bucks of plastic and cardboard to show up.

It's just that I fall into James Randi's camp of professionally snarky skepticism. You wanna impress me with such stories, make them repeatable and observable by an independent observer.

[annewandering]

I dont want to impress anyone. I want people to not have the same thing happen to them. You want the names of all the people that were there that day? I doubt they want to be reminded but I can try to remember exactly who was there.

[Magen_Avot]

I dont want to impress anyone. I want people to not have the same thing happen to them. You want the names of all the people that were there that day? I doubt they want to be reminded but I can try to remember exactly who was there.

Don't bother annewandering. Neither you nor those who you spoke of need this. It's ok for someone to be skeptical and/or disbelieve experiences of others. There are way too many people who jump on the wagon for their 15 minutes or whatever anyway. There is only one source of truth and I know you know that.

And of course you're right about the $18 bucks Loudmouth_Mormon, it sure doesn't. My worst experience, I just walked into a room. The board is not a "portal", it kinda falls under two or more witnesses thing if you follow, or unity ect. You could just put a rock on the table or sit around a table holding hands... and for some just to... ah, I wont' go there. Like some have said, just talking about it can invite things you don't want. I'm glad it hasn't for you. Everyone has their choice, and I don't think you're being flipant or laughing at anyone but it's not a matter of impressing like annewandering said.

Peace.

[alexm8]

As I've read through these posts I get the feeling that some people like to play Russian Roulette. Sure, you can click that gun a thousand times and not have the bullet go off, but, it only takes once. Sure, Tarot Cards, Ouija Boards, games, and other devices can seem innocuous, but it only takes ONE time for Satan to gain a foothold. Satan is very real and I personally have had experiences similar to Anne. He does have a real power and CAN influence cards, boards, charms, and even fortune cookies. I'm not saying that he DOES in all instances, but to say he cannot at all is rather naive.

We are asked to simply avoid things like that can invite evil into our lives. It reminds me of the story of the wagon driver when asked how close he could drive to the edge of a cliff. As some bragged about how close they could, one maintained he tried to stay as far away from the edge as possible. Personally having driven too close to the edge too often, I'm now trying to stay as far away from it as I can...

[annewandering]

As I've read through these posts I get the feeling that some people like to play Russian Roulette. Sure, you can click that gun a thousand times and not have the bullet go off, but, it only takes once. Sure, Tarot Cards, Ouija Boards, games, and other devices can seem innocuous, but it only takes ONE time for Satan to gain a foothold. Satan is very real and I personally have had experiences similar to Anne. He does have a real power and CAN influence cards, boards, charms, and even fortune cookies. I'm not saying that he DOES in all instances, but to say he cannot at all is rather naive.

We are asked to simply avoid things like that can invite evil into our lives. It reminds me of the story of the wagon driver when asked how close he could drive to the edge of a cliff. As some bragged about how close they could, one maintained he tried to stay as far away from the edge as possible. Personally having driven too close to the edge too often, I'm now trying to stay as far away from it as I can...

You are a wise person. I second that.

[Magen_Avot]

As I've read through these posts I get the feeling that some people like to play Russian Roulette. Sure, you can click that gun a thousand times and not have the bullet go off, but, it only takes once. Sure, Tarot Cards, Ouija Boards, games, and other devices can seem innocuous, but it only takes ONE time for Satan to gain a foothold. Satan is very real and I personally have had experiences similar to Anne. He does have a real power and CAN influence cards, boards, charms, and even fortune cookies. I'm not saying that he DOES in all instances, but to say he cannot at all is rather naive.

We are asked to simply avoid things like that can invite evil into our lives. It reminds me of the story of the wagon driver when asked how close he could drive to the edge of a cliff. As some bragged about how close they could, one maintained he tried to stay as far away from the edge as possible. Personally having driven too close to the edge too often, I'm now trying to stay as far away from it as I can...

Just an observation,... have all y'all noticed those most "for" are doing it, and those most "against" have "clicked the gun" for themselves as it was put? Anne is an exception of course.

The 'hell fire & brimstone' approach always bakes my brain when I hear it (or read it) and grouping bottle rockets (cards) with land mines (the board) is a little over the top IMO but your bottom line that it's better to stay away is sound advice.

[drr456]

You want to stay away from them! Trust me on that one! They can lead to trouble same as Wee Gee boards. Heavenly Father doesn't talk to use that way but Satan does!

[drr456]

Does anyone know what the name of the picture is on this web site? I just love it! I imagine that's exactly what it's like!! I think it's beautiful.

[shawnspencer]

Ok here is my personal opinion. Have you used an eight ball before? You ask a question and shake it and get an answer. Tarot is used the exact same way. It all depends on whether you are wholly putting your faith in it over God. This means that if you were to put your faith in the "magic" eight ball relying on pure randomness of the shaking of the ball over God, it would essentially be violating one of the ten commandments to "not put any gods before me". The god you are putting before him in this instance is the luck of the draw. it is innocent until it goes beyond the boundaries of mere fun and games. Your intentions are what make them evil. They in themselves are not evil, they are paper and ink, no more no less. Until you put them above God. When it comes to God relaying messages in other ways I do believe in it because there are numerous accounts in the scriptures from it. But I do not claim to know when those times arise. I like the art work on the cards and find them as what they are. Fun and games. No more no less. Just like the Eight ball.

[shawnspencer]

LIKE A BOSS SON! LOL. Lets get some laughs up in here! You guys are so serious. Haha

[shawnspencer]

There is that one guy in the scriptures who was a soothsayer and a man of God as well. Remember he was asking God whether he should curse or bless that one city. I have no clue how that worked. Nither do I look at that as an excuse to use that stuff. I just don't understand it and I wont until I die because that is not what Heavenly Father wants us focused on right now.

[norah63]

Avoid even the appearance of evil. If any of us lack power from Heavenly Father, it should not be looked for from some other avenue. Even as what some might think of as harmless entertainment.

[RMGuy]

My opinion:? They are paper and ink, an inanimate object. They have no special powers.

-RM

[Backroads]

I believe it's the "gateway" risk that's the danger. On one hand, tarot cards might be nothing more than harmless play fortunte telling, a pretty game. But if you put your faith in them, you're going to be missing out on true inspiration.

[DevtheWind]

I myself have been curious of these Ouija Boards... not so much Tarot though. I would say I might be able to be persuaded to use one... but I'd rather not myself. The reason why is I am always curious of these "magics" that are out there. They perplex me and quite frankly I would like to see if they actually work... But... I hear they are equally dangerous, so I'll stay away from them, plus the Lord tells us to stay away from them which always adds to the seriousness of the action

[HEthePrimate]

What about dowsing?

[RMGuy]

Riiiiigggghhht. If any of these things "worked" to accurately predict anything believe me that every business, investment firm, intelligence agency, and professional coach would be using them. Paper, ink, and plastic and they have about as much "magic" or "power" in them as a used soda can.

-RM

[DevtheWind]

What about dowsing?

As a kid my father actually used that once... wasn't very affective in his opinion. And I feel no obligation to try it. Though I believe it is treated just like the tarot cards and Ouija boards.