mikbone

Does the book comment on 1 Samuel 15:3

By all means, join in the fun. Grace vs. Works seems to be an endless debate especially when discussing the topics between groups of LDS members vs. Christians of other denominations. Salvation from Spiritual and Physical Death comes entirely from Grace. Grace is an effect of Christ's Atonement. There is no work that one can achieve that will save him or her from spiritual and physical death. Without Jesus and the Atonement, we are all dead. Exaltation on the other hand (a concept that is singular to the Mormon faith) is offered to those who work for it. Exaltation cannot exist without Salvation so Exaltation is also dependent upon grace. But Grace without Works falls far short of Exaltation. Most of these arguments a due to a miscommunication of definitions though. (Semantics) Salvation: By Grace or by Works? - Ensign Apr. 1981 - ensign Is a great article printed in 1981 by Gearald N. Lund

Copied from LDS.org - Relief Society Chapter Detail - The Latter-day Saint Woman I believe that the above statements were concerning children that are born live that die before the age of accountability, not miscarriages. Children who pass away By Common Consent, a Mormon Blog The above link is a good collection of statements concerning children that die before accountability.

D&c 138:27

Please do try. It is not by any means clear. I would like you to back up this statement with references from scripture... Children who pass away By Common Consent, a Mormon Blog Those who receive their calling and election will inherit the capacity to continue progressing eternally. All others in this life are in question... Even if you have been through the temple this does not guarantee your exaltation. The ordinance must be sealed by the holy spirit of promise. I have not witnessed this personally and have not seen anyone in my stake wearing any patches that display 'sealed by the holy spirit of promise'. It is my personal belief that all that receive exaltation must obtain their calling and election, either in this life or the next. It would be wise to seek this blessing during this mortal life. Joseph Smith has recommended as much. Those who do not inherit exaltation are in effect damned. If you make it into the 1st or 2nd level of the celestial kingdom, you do not inherit exaltation or eternal increase. I know that It will be long after my resurrection that I become perfect, if at all. I will strive for my calling and election and I know that it will be a difficult process. I do not feel that the Lord owes me anything. But He has set the mark and I am determined to keep working toward that goal. There are many examples of people whom have received their calling and election during this life, they do not boast of their success, but if you read the scriptures carefully you can determine which prophets have been successful. If you are asking me where I think that the switch is that will allow me to have me calling and election made sure, I would have to say, I don't know. But I will continue to study the scriptures, and do what I know it right. With hope, and determination through obedience perhaps it will come during this life. But I don't expect it. D&C 82 10 I, the Lord, am bound when ye do what I say; but when ye do not what I say, ye have no promise. 24 For even yet the kingdom is yours, and shall be forever, if you fall not from your steadfastness. Even so. Amen. Entrance into the Celestial Kingdom does not guarantee anyone exaltation. The only way that one can be guaranteed exaltation is to receive one's calling and election and then not murder or deny the holy spirit. This may be contrary to your previous understanding and it may be disappointing to realize that you will only be given what you are worthy to have - but it is so. Try reading the scriptures like an attorney. There are many contracts that are offered by the Lord. But you must fulfill your part before He can fulfill his part. If not so, it would not be fair to all the other souls who will not receive exaltation. Mercy cannot rob justice. The temple ceremony is unequivocal concerning these things. Check out Mark 10: 36-40 Joseph Smith, Jr. Funeral sermon for James Adams delivered at the General Conference of the Church held a Nauvoo, Ill. on Monday (afternoon) October 9, 1843, as recorded in the Times and Seasons.

D&C 131: 1-4 clearly states that if you do not enter into the 3rd level of the Celestial Kingdom via the new and everlasting covenant that you cannot have an increase. There will be many that enter into the celestial kingdom that do not enter into the 3rd level. Those people that come to earth that do not live past the age of accountability or are mentally retarded do not enter into the new and everlasting covenant. True they have passed thru the 2nd estate, but they have NOT gained entrance into the highest level of the celestial kingdom. And even If one is married in the temple and enters into the new and everlasting covenant, if the ordinance is not sealed by the holy spirit of promise it is not binding. Receiving ones calling and election is the only sure fire way to know if you are going to make it into the highest level of the celestial kingdom. And thus have the type of existence that God has - Exaltation.

Depends on how you define success and exaltation. Trisomy 18 is Edwards syndrome, I assume you ment someone with (21), or just mental retardation. Anyway, those who have mental retardation or die before age 8 qualify for the Celestial kingdom but not the highest level of that kingdom... Entrance into the highest lvl requires temple marriage...

D&C 78: 17-22 D&C 58: 2-4 Council Meeting of Presidency and Twelve Apostles on June 27, 1839 Joseph Smith, Jr. as recorded in the Willard Richards Pocket companion Sermon delivered at Yelrome, Hancock County, Ill. on Sunday May 14, 1843 Joseph Smith, Jr. as recorded in Wilford Woodruff Journal The above 2 quotes by the prophet describe the ordinance of receiving one's calling and election. It is the ultimate blessing that one can receive here on earth, or even in heaven. You may notice that one can receive this blessing only after having the Lord thoroughly prove him, wherein the Lord finds that the man is determined to serve him at all hazard. Please notice that Joseph Smith also states that one can hear the voice of God and know that Jesus is the Son of God, and still not have this blessing. Thus if we have not had this ordinance during this earth life, we will have to continue to work in the hereafter until we are worthy of the blessing.

Why are we here at all then. Why not just arrange a earthly simulation wherein all the members of humanity either die before the age of accountability or are mentally retarded? Sure would have been nice if everyone could have just skipped earth life and learned by osmosis just by being in God's presence. Why couldn't we have learned all the diligence, integrity and faithfulness without mistake or error during the pre-mortal existence. Or..., why didn't God just cast Satan into Outer darkness instead of down here to Earth. He could have done so easily. Then your idea of how we are to learn would have been so much easier. Why fight? Why struggle so much?

1) God could have made a computer simulation of our entire lives from our progression prior to earth life, thru this test and beyond, and in a split second had the results of everyones score. What then? Would He then say OK Bobby did poorly. Then make his spirit, give him a resurrected body and then condemn him to outer darkness? And Holly does swell she gets created and is sent to the Celestial Kingdom. Do we hook her up with another good simulation (Dan) and send them off to create other worlds. Do we fill Holly and Dan's brain with false memories and expect them to continue to make good decisions? Sounds absurd no? 2) Experience is essential. Without the hardcore understanding of the consequences of our decisions we don't really have an education. Would you prefer to have Brother Uchtdorf or my 12 year old son pilot your next transcontinental flight (my son is really good on flight simulators). 3) Heisenberg's Principle of Uncertainty, cause and effect. 4) Abraham 3:25 And we will prove them herewith, to see if they will do all things whatsoever the Lord their God shall command them;

What is Official Mormon Doctrine?

Trial and error is integral to the plan of salvation. Otherwise Father would have chosen Lucifers plan (Moses 4:1-3) wherein none would have been lost. Agency would have been forefit. And we could have learned without mistake or error. It is my hope that as my trials continue my errors will decrease until that perfect day. D&C 122: 7-8 Hope Ya Know, We Had a Hard Time There is one other thing that I wish that your would consider. The concept that we have been discussing in this post is not really important to our salvation. We are trying to peer through the veil and predict what the hereafter is going to be like. The majority of all scripture does not really discuss the issues that we have been poorly debating. The reason that I keep quoting Joseph Smith, particularly the King Follett Discourse is that during that general conference talk. Brother Joseph felt the need to delve into deep doctrine and try to explain some of the issues of eternity and our future in heaven. Most LDS members probably don't even recognize what he was attempting to do on that day in April 7, 1844. If you want to understand what our relationship with Heavenly Father is going to be like in the future, you have to see it like Joseph Smith did. Or you have to read the words of the Men whom have had their calling and election made sure, saw thru the veil and then attempted to share some of their knowledge with us. These occurrences are few. Ether 3 - The brother of Jared and his vision Joseph Smith Jr. Abraham Enoch

Section 130: 18-21

It is both. He has had past experiences that let Him empathically understand our feelings. And He is omniscient. We can't hide anything from him. Joseph Smith has been quoted on numerous occasions stating that the 'Holy Ghost is now in a state of Probation which if he should perform in righteousness he may pass through the same or a similar course of things that the Son has.' If this is true then perhaps Both God the Father and Jehovah served in a state similar to that of the Holy Ghost prior to arriving at their exalted stations. These experiences would allow one to understand our collective lives and experiences... Sure at some time in the distant future. IF we are worthy, and climb the ladder or trod the path that those whom have gone before have done. We will be worthy of the same blessings that they now receive. Yes. Eternal life is to know the true God. And to know it, you must experience it. Experience comes through experience, there is no other way. That is why our beloved first mother partook of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. You seem to believe that there is some short-cut that will let us bypass the work, fear and trembling portion of the plan of exaltation... That we will inherit Godhood and Exaltation without going through all the messy parts. Do you think that when we enter into the Celestial Kingdom that we will be granted an Urim and Thummin and that we will be able to interface with this supercomputer and immediately download all the experiences that we will need to act as a God and start populating our own worlds? What are your expectations? I am curious to know how you think it is going to transpire that you become a Goddess?

No, there is no experience that I have had that the Lord cannot understand. But that does not mean thar the converse of that statement is true. You see, I believe that the Lord is infinitely more experienced than you or I. He has been where I am now. He knows the challenges and difficulties. I on the other hand do not understand His ways. I can look at a 1st grader and sympathize with his trials. But that same 1st grader cannot understand the complications of my life. And the gulf between us and God is much more vast than myself and a 1st grader. And yes I believe that Christ knows what it is like to be a father, see Ether 3:15-16.

I copied this from a previous post I did back in April. Doctrine, from Latin doctrina, means "a body of teachings" or "instructions", taught principles or positions, as the body of teachings in a branch of knowledge or belief system. I have recently studied the concept of LDS doctrine and was happy to hear Brother Christofferson's talk during conference. LDS Church News - Elder D. Todd Christofferson: 'The doctrine of Christ' Recorded Video Newscasters are salivating at the possibility of an LDS member challenging our current President in the next US general presidential election. See the following two articles. This issue is probably going to come up again and again during the presidential election process... The Genesis of a church's stand on race - The Washington Post Church Statement Regarding 'Washington Post' Article on Race and the Church - LDS Newsroom The following documents have been making the rounds in other LDS discussion boards. Approaching Mormon Doctrine - LDS Newsroom Mormon Doctrine: What’s Official, And What Isn’t? FAIR - What is “Official” LDS Doctrine? Doctrine Tier 1 – The Bible (as far as translated correctly – AoF 8), The Book of Mormon, The Doctrine and Covenants, & The Pearl of Great Price. These scriptures were approved by the First Presidency, sustained by the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles, and accepted by vote of the entire membership of the church None of the below items have been voted upon by the Church as a whole, and thus the items are not binding upon us a a people and a church. This of course does not infer that the below items are not true. But they do not technically make the hard definition of what is LDS Doctrine. Tier 2 – The Temple endowment narrative, Hymnal (D&C 25:11-12), Official Proclamations and Doctrinal Expositions signed and distributed by The First Presidency and the Council of the Twelve Apostles of the Church. Tier 3 – Official Publications (Manuals, Handbook - LDS Church), Official talks and statements by General Authorities (General Conference Talks, Ensign First Presidency Message, etc.) Tier 4 – Official Policy (Priesthood denied to black men of African descent prior to 1978 Official Declaration - 2) Tier 5 – Books by General Authorities (Mormon Doctrine, Teachings of The Prophet Joseph Smith, etc.) Tier 6 – Books by LDS Scholars (Hugh Nibley, Cleon Skousen, BYU professors of religion, etc...) That being said, when the Holy Ghost personally manifests a truth to a person, that truth supercedes the tier system (for that person). Although the lower tier items should be in harmony with the higher tier items... Exceptions do come into play though, for example, 1 Ne 4:10-18. Isaiah 55: 8-9 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the Lord. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.

The ladder (path) is there before us. It has been well defined. But you have to climb it. Neither Christ nor Our Father can climb it for us. Elohim could not spare Christ from the cross although Christ petitioned him three times to do so. Do Celestial beings share anything with God? Yes of course. We are his offspring. He created us, thus our triumphs and shortcomings are his as well. But this does not necessairly does not mean that we can claim his accomplishments as our own. Shared experiences. It is a strange concept. Do you have children? If you do, you have had an experience that is special. There are years of joy, happiness, sleepless nights, sorrow, etc... Can a single person without children understand what it is like to be a parent? Does being an Uncle give the same expereinces as being a father, if the father and his brother discuss the sleepless nights and trials? Does watching an Olympic Marathon prepare you for breaking a world record in the 26 mile race? I love watching superhero movies. I still cannot fly, move objects with my mind, or punch through walls.

Yeah, in my opinion you misunderstand, me, Brother Christofferson, and Joseph Smith. I believe that they are clearly talking about what is to come for those whom are worthy in the hereafter... Fear and Trembling refers to the atonement. I will quote Joseph Smith one more time. We are at the bottom rung of the ladder. I haven't learned the first principle of exaltation. Can you name any of the principles of exaltation??? It is not to be comprended in this world! It will be a great work even beyond the grave. Joseph Smith was about to go into more detail but he could not because of all the over-wise saints that were in the audience whom he alluded to as traitors. Just try to suspend your current stance and read the King Follett sermon with the insight as if Joseph Smith is trying to share with you something of great worth. You must recognize that Joseph Smith had experiences and knowledge that superseded all of the following Latter Day Prophets. Or you could continue to be closed minded and refuse open your mind to anything that is not contained within the Bible.

D&C 93 is a great treatise of my position. Grace for Grace. I fear that many LDS read verses like John 17:22 "And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one" And come to the conclusion that we will be given Godhood instead of earning it grace for grace. I love D. Todd Christofferson's talk in oct 2002 conference tittled, That They May Be One in Us. The following is the penultimate paragraph from the above talk. Surely we will not be one with God and Christ until we make Their will and interest our greatest desire. Such submissiveness is not reached in a day, but through the Holy Spirit, the Lord will tutor us if we are willing until, in process of time, it may accurately be said that He is in us as the Father is in Him. At times I tremble to consider what may be required, but I know that it is only in this perfect union that a fulness of joy can be found. I am grateful beyond expression that I am invited to be one with those holy beings I revere and worship as my Heavenly Father and Redeemer. I believe that Brother Christofferson was referencing the following words of Joseph Smith When He made the above statement. The King Follett Sermon - Ensign Apr. 1971 - ensign

I hope you had a good vacation. I guess my issue is that some people think that when we exit this life that we will enter into the Celestial Kingdom and be co-equal with God. There was a recent post here on the forums wherein a person was told that we don't kneel in the celestial room because in there, we are equal with God. I think not. Lets look at the concept of the Lords 'Rest'. D&C 84:24 is the only scripture that I can find that defines the Lords rest. "rest is the fulness of his glory" Moses 1:39 For behold, this is my work and my glory—to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man. These scriptures, to me, suggest that the Lord's rest is WORK. Yes we are born with the potential to become like God. But it is not a sure thing. It must be earned. And I believe that the earning of the Lord's Rest will take much more time and effort that what can be achieved here on this Earth. There is much instore for those that are worthy. God does not 'owe' anyone exaltation. Lets look at the parable of the prodigal son as well. Most people who discuss this parable in Luke 15 dwell on the son that was lost who is given the fatted lamb. But it is important to see the results of the work of the good son. 29 And he answering said to his father, Lo, these many years do I serve thee, neither transgressed I at any time thy commandment: and yet thou never gavest me a kid, that I might make merry with my friends: 30 But as soon as this thy son was come, which hath devoured thy living with harlots, thou hast killed for him the fatted calf. 31 And he said unto him, Son, thou art ever with me, and all that I have is thine. Do you think that the prodigal son is going to receive an equal inheritance of the good son?

Mental Illness and George Albert Smith [uPDATED] By Common Consent, a Mormon Blog

Abraham 3:24 And there stood one among them that was like unto God, and he said unto those who were with him: We will go down, for there is space there, and we will take of these materials, and we will make an earth whereon these may dwell; D&C 93:21 And now, verily I say unto you, I was in the beginning with the Father, and am the Firstborn; These two scriptures are pretty straightforward. In the pre-mortal existence, Jehovah was like unto God (enough to differentiate himself from the rest of us), and he was the Firstborn. The title Firstborn could mean many things... But my final conclusion is that before any of the rest of our brethren were organized as spirit children, Jehovah was there with the Father and He (Jehovah the pre-mortal Christ) had already obtained a station of god. How did He get there??? Best answer -- We don't know. But this answer is not very satisfying. Objectively, I only recognize 2 realistic options. 1) Jehovah was created differently then the rest of us, which imbued his spirit with special qualities. or 2) Jehovah had experiences, prior to our organization as spirit children of Elohim, that allowed him to progress much further than where we currently reside within the plan of salvation. Either way, the above assumptions lead to the conclusion that there is an ontological gap between Jehovah & the rest of Elohim's spirit children. Jehovah is unique no doubt. Personally, I think that Jehovah had been married prior to being born as a babe in Bethlehem.

The book of Abraham speaks for itself. Facsimile 2, and the intrepretation is awesome. It matters not to me that Joseph Smith needed a tangeable relic to bolster his faith to receive revelation. An excellent response is found in the ensign I Have a Question - Ensign July 1988 - ensign

show up.

I taught lesson 17 last week in Elders Quorum. The lesson went over great, we didn't shead any tears but all were edified. I am greatly looking foreward to the Lorenzo Snow manual for next year. I think that there is a problem with our society, inside and definately outside of the church. It can be summed up pretty easily. Man-up.