Quin

That's what IS happening, hopefully. When the government has no say in who gets married, as long as they are legal adults able to make the decision to enter into a binding legal contract (which is what marriage is on a government basis, rights and protections granted to people entering into an agreement with each other). Homosexuality & the # of legal adults are the last 2 places where the government defines who can enter into such a binding contract (technically, even children can be wed if they're past the age of consent, if their parents sign a waiver... And children younger than that can be betrothed as long as there is no abuse.). It leaves us all to follow our religions. My religion doesn't recognize gay marriage (nor 2+ person marriage) as holy matrimony. And that's fine. I can adhere to my own beliefs. Meanwhile the branches of Anglican, Presbyterian, United Church of Christ, and reform Judaism -amongst others- which DO recognize gay marriage as holy matrimony are free to practice and worship as they see fit. Q

Heck... i'm not even broken hearted... but i'm still not over my marriage. Getting there, though. Maybe. From an inside/out perspective it seems like there are 4 main groups of people who divorce. Those who are dating befoe the ink is even dry (or on) the papers. Those who wait about 2 years. Those who wait about 5 years. Those who never date, or who wait until someone who is even more determined than they are outstubborns them. There are good/healthy, damaged, and broken people in all 4 groups. Meaning that none is inherantly better than the rest. What i mostly know about are former SAHPs, and people in abusive marriages (aka cest moi). As a group, most tend to start dating right away, and as a group most tend to start dating a new abuser. Wheee. The stats i looked at showed that in both cases, the 5 year mark seems to be the fork in the road. After 5 years, most tend to date decent people. Also, a lot fewer incidences of boyfriends molesting your kids. Both of which meant I decided not to date for 5 years. The first year, ALL I wanted was someone to hold me. After the first year I went "Whoa! Talk about low standards. Apparently my bar is set so low that ARMS are all that are required. Okay, self. Good job on the not dating thing! Lets see if we can raise our standards a bit, shall we?" After the 2nd year I realized that I needed to be self supporting. Not just in the whole not-setting-myself-up-for-round-2-of-total-financial-ruin (I married young, supported my husband through school, did the whole broke to successful thing, and then wound up beyond broke -massively in debt- following my divorce. Worse off than I was when I got married, and we were on Ramen back then.). Although the not repeating financial ruin thing played a big part, the self-supportive thing really meant having a life I could share with someone. Not only my own money, but work I'm advancing in, friends, hobbies, etc. Essentially, the life I want to live and being the person I want to be. Not some broken winged bird, who is going to change dramatically in the interim. After the 3rd year, I really started remembering the kind of guy I used to date, get on with, etc. And I started breaking that down, finding parallels, and figuring out why my ex looked like that kind of guy in many ways superficially, but really wasn't. ((As an example, I like cocky, not arrogant. Love the first, abhor the second. They look the same in many ways, but are 180 different. Cocky is high energy self assurance. Arrogance is intense feeling better than other people. One is raising yourself up on your own abilities, the other is raising yoursself up by putting other people down.)) Fourth year is bringing to the forefront all the lovely (not) ways I'm still screwed up from my marriage. Also dealing with a lot of other wreckage. I had thought the numbers showing that former SAHPs take 5 years to get back on their feet to be overly conservative. At this point, I'm afraid it might be optimistic. I am doing nowhere near as well as I thought I'd be at this point. Honestly, it's scaring me. I really thought, in all ways, that I'd be doing better than I am by now. But I just keep finding new and exciting ways that I'm still messed up from 10 years in misery, and everything. just. takes. so. long. to. put. to. rights. Now... this is just MY journey. I am not saying you should wait 5 years, nor that these would be the things that you'd discover about yourself, even if you did. Some people are just fine out the gate, and some people are still messed up even after 10 years. However, for myself, I find that I tend to "be" a statistic, so I went with the statistics for my particular situation. And the status quo remains. For ME, it's taking time. Time is what is fixing things. Slowly. (darnit). What I would suggest for you (or anyone) is an impartial 3rd party. Which is either a counselor, or some really stellar friends. Both can be a huge help. Although my warning, there, is not to lose your own sense of self in what either say. I've had counselors (and friends, neither LDS) who recommend a 1 night stand (or 6). That's not something I'm willing to do. I've had counselors (and friends, both LDS) urge me to start dating/looking for marriage super pronto, while I'm still young enough to start (another) family. That's not something I'm willing to do (remember how low my standards have been! Arms, for crying out loud!) I've had counselors and friends (both LDS and not) who have been incrediably supportive and helpful. (Now it sounds like I've had a whole team of psychiatrists. I haven't. But I did do the group DV thing for a bit, and there were several counselors involved there.) Point being... its easy to get lost inside our own heads, and either just run with that (one example amongst many; either not dating when we're totally ready, or dating when it's the last thing we should be doing)... that an impartial 3rd party can help us sort out. All my best, Q

You believe our government is Satan??? I feel like I'm back in Iran, listening to people describe America. I must be misunderstanding something, here. Right? I'm talking about the separation of church & state being a balanced stalemate between equal adversaries. The government strong enough that no religion can take over the government, and religions strong enough that the government cannot take over religion. Which is what we have. People can choose to send their kids to government schools, or to religious schools. People can choose their religion. People can choose their government. And all the other stuff that goes all with that balance (we have some pretty awful chapters in our history... When that balance gets out of whack, or tipped too far to one side) but, while not perfect, we do generally maintain that balance. I do really like your posit, though, that the righteous and religion aren't necessarily connected. Q

EXACTLY!!! Because we were a small fringe group back then. We did NOT have the political clout to take on the govt... So we left. Several times. And later, didn't have the chops to hold our own. We DO now. We DO have the money, power, and influence today that we didn't have back then. The church has come a loooooooong way in the past 100 some odd years. Millions of members (active, not the total roll), hundreds of millions (I would suspect billions) of dollars, representatives in congress & the judiciary. We're a respected, highly funded, highly placed organization. Not a fringe group eking out survival on the frontier. And we're not alone. The Catholic Church is even better funded and further entrenched in society, and probably our best shield politically, while the en masse host of religious organizations which want to maintain their own autonomy are also "with" us. It does NOT mean every agenda we have/attack we make we can push through. But it DOES mean that attacks ON us are exceptionally difficult. And I have faith that we can repel those attacks with relative ease. As perhaps a more apt parallel than from back when we were a fringe group... Look at women. We're equal under the law with men. But we don't hold the priesthood. Why? Because the Catholic & Protestant churches were strong enough back during Sufferage & Women's Lib to keep Church Autonomy in that area. Churches that CHOOSE to allow women to hold the office, do. Churches that do NOT choose to, are not forced to. Churches are allowed to define the office of priest as they choose. As church business. Q

Curiouser & curiouser. :) Really interesting read, Bini! Myself, I have a highly trained Forgettery, and wouldn't want to mess with it. Not actually joking, as compartmentalization is necessary for living a normal life in some fields (mine included), and I'm half eidetic (part and parcel with ADHD). I'm constantly reliving sensory experiences... So I work very hard at forgetting as much as possible & blurring out as much of the rest as I can with a whitewash of noise & movement. Sensory overload makes my mind stop recording data, and I can think clearly. But I can still tell you that my 11th grade progress report for English is about at calf level, under something orange, and that the color green is involved. Also something gritty. Crumbs or sand or glitter I couldn't tell you. Just grit. With the sun at my back, angle my shoulders, and reach. (Which means it probably slid off my bed, and later that my mind tagged something orange that fell on it. Green is probable another piece of paper in the stack. But might be a sock, poster, etc.). Seriously useless information runs rampant in my brain. The exact size and placement of a hole in the door in 1984, and what the stitching looked like in the clog that put it there (along with about 1000 other bits of information about that hole), the way anise smells, and the color of the fence, in every type of weather outside my fence in the canyons in the 80s, and again in the 90s (the wind changes the smell, and the wind was different in both decades, as the city size was different and pollution levels changed. (and 1000 other bits of information). Q

This is an extremely hot-button issue in parenting land. Cut v Uncut fights get brutal. I just went with the option that leaves other options open: Uncut. Means if there's medical necessity later, we can. Means if he decides he wants to be circ'd later, he can decide to hisself. I have absolutely no opinion whatsoever on what anyone else chooses. If you wanna talk female circumcision, then I've got a strong opinion. Q

I prefer to talk to HF & the Spirit while awake. Most of my dreams are lucid, and have been since I was a child. Not sayin your reasoning is flawed. Just my own personal preference. I don't trust dreams. Physics (and everything else) works entirely different, there, lovely as it is. I can rewind a dream 49 times in order to get the conclusion I want. With that much control, I wouldn't trust anything I was told as not being self engineered. Q

The other tax-exempt groups (just starting in the middle) are because most of the fearfulness -at least around here- seems to stem mostly from people who don't know that other groups are under the same pressures, and that those pressures are normal. There's this OMG, our church is being attacked, we're going to lose everything... Kind of vibe. When really, it's just par for course. Whenever ANY group starts getting political, their tax-exempt status thunks onto the table. In addition... For nearly every group who recieved tax-exempt status there's a group of anti-_____ trying to get their tax exempt status revoked. Be it anti-religion, anti-environmental, anti-gay youth outreach... If you're a special interest group, someone hates you. (It's those underwater basket weavers I'm on a tear for. Jess lemme at 'em ; ) Flying under the radar = simply following the law, doing what they say they are there to do, and staying out of politics. Jump into politics = political pressure applied. Very few big religious groups are apolitical. Most have their tax-exempt status constantly being challenged / gone over with a fine tooth comb by attorneys & investigators. On both sides. Our church is far more liberal than many, so we miss a lot of the political byplay, but not on this issue. Even still, our leaders don't tell us who or what to vote for. So even on this issue we're not as entrenched as a lot of big churches. I think it will be interesting to see which way the govt takes it (big and entrenched, big and less entrenched, or small fringe) as the test cases. But that's still probably years down the road. And then a decade or more before it hits (and is accepted by) the Supreme Court, and precedence set. All of which boils down to why I'm not afraid at all. The Church's lawyers & lobbiests will be working overtime to maintain & secure the Church's rights and privileges, right along with every other church who is opposing (or whose members in the vast majority) the changing legislation. There will be quite a lot of politicking, to maintain the status quo (aka tax exempt status & right to define holy matrimony as they choose), until the XYZ-Church vs The State of ABC makes it through to the US Supreme Court, and sets precedent. Assuming it EVER gets that far. Which it very well may not, though I suspect it shall. The fear just doesn't make sense to me. It's like the fear on the opposite side of the fence that churches are trying to take over the govt., and will bring back the inquisition, conversion by the sword, and baby eating. (Okay, okay, technically : Statement of Faith/Are you now or have be been a communist era, mandated/state religion, outlawing all forms of birth control & STD protection). Both sides have attorneys and lobbyists that are simply too good to allow any kind of radical change to happen. And both sides have to deal with the judiciary (ponderous), and house/senate (politicking). Which means that very little change happens, and what does happens very slowly. Generational slowly, in most cases, right? Even then, it tends to be a piece of an issue every generation. The other side might TRY and lash back, or add onto their own success (by changing even more laws) but that rarely happens. Usually, just being successful in advancing their own rights is just barely doable. Much less challenging other status quos. So I can't imagine, that during every single other civil rights battle churches have maintained their autonomy, but for some reason during THIS one, churches are going to lose it? Q

You DO, get though, that tax-exempt status is not a right? It's a privilege... Either earned (by flying under the radar) or held by having the political clout to make it more of a pain to remove than to let it lie. Q

I'm caught up. There just is no secret agenda that those of us who ARE for gay marriage whisper about and plot about in secret. As far as removing tax-exempt status... That's a very old dog. No new tricks about it. Does it get used? Certainly. It's political leverage. The same way churches use funding & votes as political leverage. The separation of church & state has never (to my knowledge) been at peace. At BEST it's a balanced stalemate between equal adversaries. It's not simply churches which hold tax exempt status, however. Non-profits, sports leagues (the NFL has tax-exempt status), and others all carry it. In order to KEEP it, the organization either has to do as suggested by JaG and fly under the radar, OR have the political weight to buck the system (as most established churches, including our own) do. Q

Equal rights and protection under the law? Q

What she said. It's actually a sign of deception if a story gets told exactly the same way, each and every single time. Lie to Me Blog | Paul Ekman Group | Paul Ekman Group, LLC Q

Another Rapunzel Lesson :tongue firmly in cheek: Dye your hair blonde to get the guy, then chop it off and let it go back to brown once you've snared him. Q

YAY!!!! Happy Dance. Q

LOL... Here's another fun "don't eat it if it's bad" thing: Rye. When Rye gets infected wih Ergot 1:2 things will happen: LSD -or- St. Anthony's Fire Pray for LSD, as Ergotomine Poisoning (St. Anthony's Fire) isn't just deadly, it's painful (limbs falling off painful, literally, not figuratively), deadly in most cases, and before all of that, you go crazy. Essentially, it's LSD+Painful death. While other grains are suceptible to ergot, Rye is super prone to it. So it's just one grain that I won't ever store. Even though I keep some on hand for pumpernickel or rye bread. St. Anthony's Fire -- Ergotism - Heart Disease and Other Cardiovascular Conditions on MedicineNet.com SECRETS OF THE DEAD . The Witches Curse . Clues & Evidence | PBS Wheeeee! Q

He was sick from a plot twist/plot point. Cause the author decided to make him sick, and the scriptwriter decided it advanced the storyline. (Cough) Fiction. (Cough) Fiction. "CDC estimates that each year roughly 1 in 6 Americans (or 48 million people) get sick, 128,000 are hospitalized, and 3,000 die of foodborne diseases. Estimating illnesses, hospitalizations, and deaths for various types of diseases is a common and important public health practice." CDC - Estimates of Foodborne Illness in the United States Or for some superfun stuff (using real stats and science for silly conclusions) check out NatureHatesYou (WARNING Bad language. Not a lot, but intermittently. Which is why there is no lin)k. It's on YouTube. And. It's. Awesome. There's a bunch of different food/water ones. Q

Grief isn't rational. For many of us, when someone we love is killed, the knee-jerk response is to kill not only their killer but everyone who has ever been even tangentially associated with them. To soak the world in blood and then burn it down just for good measure. It's the whole reasoning behind 'an eye for an eye'... The attempt at fairness. Not, you killed (or even just insulted) my son. So I'll kill yours, AND your wife, AND you parents, AND your dog, your neighbor, and anyone you've ever cared for... Which is/was the norm. Even when society doesn't support revenge killings (and not only do some whole societies still practice revenge, but even in this country, many subgroups still do. Think gangs.) it's still a visceral reaction of many. If my son killed someone's child, and their parents came to my house, I'd be expecting their wrath, not their commiseration. Q

I'm the polar opposite of Skippy. I keep drugs forever (part of our chores as kids was to look up the tables for the pharmacy, and to work in the lab over the summer... Medical family. Every time I have to pay $750 for a urinalysis I spin in my own grave). But I toss food. Often looooong before the expiration date. 3 days from opening, if I've kept it at temperature, is my maximum. More than 3 days old goes to the dog or the compost. I also sniff test everything, from the moment I open it. Sometimes refrigeration fails in transport or storage and food goes bad on the truck, or the warehouse, or store. Q

It depends where I'm at. Generally I find that customer service is expensive*... So one finds it mostly only in the very small places (either small towns or mom&pop places in urban centers), niche-industry (snowsports or model trains, whatever), or where you're paying for it (posh). Granted, there are some mega-corps who insist and pride themselves (aka will fire employees) on customer service (Nordstrom, for example), and there are certain store managers who create a microcosm by only hiring smart & friendly people... So while every other store may be full of jerks, their store is knock your socks off, awesome. * Good customer service requires smart people. Smart people move on to better jobs. In order to retain smart people a company has to treat them well, and pay them well. AKA it's more expensive. One thig you know for SURE when you're being treated badly by the employees is that it is an awful job, with terrible management, and lousy benefits. So my personal suspicion is that it's far less that customer service is a thing of the past, and far more that customer service jobs are rarely livable, anymore. People work them when they have to, for as long as it takes to get a better job. The ones who can't get a better job stick around making it even more miserable. There still ARE living-wage, good benefits customer service jobs. But those are both rare and competitive (like THE restaurant in town to work for, the best couple of airlines, etc.). Similarly, the amazing manager tends to inspire loyalty where the wages and benefits don't... Which creates the same kind of competitive nature to get those jobs = similar rarity. Q

Yep! (Can't find an open source pic of this!) Funny Family Ecard: I homeschool because I have ... | Homeschool Humor Q

Part of that (bolded) is also just plain smart - LDS Family Services can make counseling possible for families who could not otherwise afford it. - Most of the world doesn't give a hoot about many issues that are very dear to Mormons (pornography &/or masturbation are considered a healthy part of many, if not most marriages, for example. The counseling outside of an LDS perspective is usually focused on how to help the other spouse feel less threatened/jealous of normal/healthy sexuality (unless it's sex-addiction, which is another kettle of fish)... and as long as it's not an affair, sex outside of marriage is considered normal & even laudable. Right after my divorce, you probably can't imagine the number of people urging me to go have a good one night stand to 'wash that man right out of my hair'. Including one of my counselors. (The not-LDS one). Q

Why do I have a feeling that the conversation went something like this: "No. Really. I'm done. I'm leaving the church. I don't believe in anything anymore." "Well, then you won't mind when I remarry someone else, so I can be in the Celestial Kingdom." "No, you won't. That's wrong, hurtful, an awful thing to say." "What do you care? I thought you didn't believe?" "I don't." "Then you shouldn't care WHO I'm married to in the Celestial Kingdom. Since families aren't eternal. I'm thinking a Swedish Men's Ski Team member. Or maybe swimming? Volleyball? Don't worry. Sven & I will make sure the children visit you. Oh wait- You don't believe. Never mind. Sven & I & the kids will be fine without you." Q

I cannot imagine things are so cut and dry. Children take their own lives. Soldiers give their lives in exchange for others (the classic jumping on a grenade, or more modern, standing on the mine until everyone else is out of range). People choose one death from another (think of the people who jumped from the twin towers rather than burn to death). People take their own lives, having been raised that it is the honorable thing to do to prevent disgrace from attaching to their family. And so, so, so many other examples. Maybe Our Heavenly Father is cold and didactic. Having chosen to die, he turns his back on those spirits for all eternity... Sending all spirits both brave and broken to outer darkness. But I cannot imagine him to be. Q

I agree with everyone else... With some specific caveats. <grin> Since you're looking at this from the other side, does this make me devil's advocate or angel's advocate? - Dirty clothes &/or other fabrics I wash. Both as general good hospitality & the fact that I have a sensitive nose. Unless I'm dating you, I generally don't want to smell you. I've ruined something ONCE. (6'8 man's sweater that SAID wash cold/dry low ,and I did. And it was the size of a purse pooch's sweater at the end. From over 3 feet long, to less than 12". Horrifying. Durn thing was mislabeled dry lean only. He knew/had been told by the store. I shrank it to Kleenex size, and then paid to replace it. House rule: I break it. I buy it). - Toys and games that were brought over to play (I do a lot of game nights), we generally keep playing until they pick them back up again. Which is generally the following week. House rule applies. - In the event of an emergency, I have used people's mobile phones. I also use them to call #1 on their speed dial to find out who the sucker belongs to if it isn't immediately apparent. In general, though, as I said... When the hordes come over, stuff gets left. In general, I just set it on the console table (or in a basket in the entryway) and here it sits until fetched, again. Including clothes I wash. Q

LOL. Been there, felt that! One of my favorite quotes is "Never judge your insides by anyone else's outsides." Q