Dove

Prison Chaplain; Thanks much for your beautiful explanation as to why and what the cross means to you. I have more of an understanding and compassion for those who wear the cross and hang it in their churches. Thanks again. I've struggled with the wearing of it. As has been posted on this thread, sometimes it seems that people wear it for a fashion statement as much as they do truly worshipping the Saviour. So, to me that's taking something holy and blaspheming it, to a degree. Regardless, my mother did teach me that the reason why we LDS don't have crosses is because we want to focus on the life of Christ more than his death. But, I really appreciate your perspective that the cross acts as a reminder of what Christ suffered for our sins and carnal nature. I really like that. As I've grown older, I tend to feel that, while it is very important to remember how the Saviour has paid for my sins, I agree more with the LDS perspective of not using the cross to symbolise what Christ did for us. I'll try to explain why..... I used to pray to come to a better understanding of Christ and what He did for me, even if I had to suffer as He did to be able to understand it. I feel God has shown me that Christ's suffering, being infinite and eternal (encompassing all of our sins for eternity) is a suffering that I, in my finite state, cannot comprehend. Also, that His suffering is very sacred and Holy, to be treated with the utmost reverence and respect. As has often been counselled in the LDS religion, there are certain things we don't easily talk about. I have heard talks where they advise not to share one's patriarchal blessing, for example. Or, not to share the very personalised promptings of the Spirit given to one, unless told to do so by same Spirit, to others. Then there is the temple. We are counselled not to share what happens there, not because what we do is wrong or bad. But, because what we do do is along the same lines of being very sacred, Holy and to be treated with the utmost sobreness and respect. So, I would liken this to the Jews of the Old Testament. If I have learned correctly, they wouldn't even say God's name, out of respect and reverencing for the sacredness of it. That's what it is for me. I grow very uncomfortable with others, even those in my own religion, who go into great detail as to how Christ suffered. This because I know there is no way we can understand His suffering for us. So, basically we're writing fiction when we try and delve into it. That's not to mean we forget it. What it means to me is to take the stance of humility by acknowledging it the best I can, knowing that, in a childlike way, it is too much for me to comprehend and handle right now. Just my .02 cents worth. Dove

Right, I should go study the Pearl of Great Price again...and the Doctrine and Covenants. Thanks Again Dove

Hello, Vort; I thought his article was a correct reflection on the premortal council and Lucifer's fall. Can you tell me what the correct rendition is? Thanks Dove

Aloha, Soja; I don't know if I should be jumping in on this topic, as I am married to a nonmember. But, I thought I would say something I hope will be helpful for you to consider. My very best friend in High School was not a member when we became friends....However, we loved each other (as friends) very much and did things together all the time. On one night the Spirit really worked through me to have a missionary experience with my friend. I had no idea how much of a missionary I was being; but, the Spirit was guiding me. I had us read a passage of the Book of Mormon and pray together. He received a witness as to the truthfulness of the Book of Mormon and several years later, after we had stopped being in contact, was baptised. Also, I remember another friend/boyfriend of mine helping me in the gospel in college. I went on a mission due to his influence. I guess what I'm trying to say is, while maybe being romantic isn't necessary for your relationship to thrive right now, don't forget the counsel from one of our prophets. (Sorry, I don't remember which one said this.) Every member a missionary. Even if she's not interested in converting at this point, be an example to her of Christ like love. Share with her your beliefs and goals to go on a mission when the time is right. Don't pressure her to convert. But, be a true friend and example of the gospel of Jesus Christ. Pray about what to do, then listen to and follow the promptings of the Spirit. You never know what influence you could have in the young womans'/daughter of Gods' life. The best to you. Dove

PS. I certainly have believed that "true" suffering is very deeply part of the process of coming to Christ. I look at how so many saints in the Bible suffered and died for their testimony of Christ. Maybe they went through these things in a peaceful frame of mind. Very important for me to contemplate.

What an interesting perspective~I like your reference to eastern thought. The insights that philosophy gives me is very comforting.... Also, it makes sense that I am the cause of my own trials because of how I choose to perceive and deal with any given situation. I have often wondered if the reason I keep having trials in life is because my heart is soo hard. From what you have said, this seems to be true. I often struggle with external things. Mostly from other people. I certainly want to learn different coping patterns so that I can stop being hurt and offended so often. The Spirit has often pointed out to me that my own lack of self esteem leaves me particularly vulnerable to the unkindness I seem to often experience from others. I get hurt easily because I am so willing to believe the negativity coming towards me. It's as much about forgiving myself for "causing" the unkindness as it is forgiving the person showing it. The Spirit is always soo loving towards me..and gives me healing and comfort when I deal with the heartache I experience so readily. Thanks Again Dove

Hello, Traveler; I am so sorry if I came off as "adversarial." You are right, we don't need to be this way in discussing various topics, even if we disagree. Please let me address this. Your first thread sounded to me like you were placing science, or the pursuit of it, equal to pursuing God. It sounded like you were placing this as equal to God. It got my dander up. Again, I apologise. I can certainly learn better to quell my initial negative reactions to things and trust that your intent may be purer then what it may sound like to me. That being said, I really like the points you made in your response. I've never thought of being enlightened in science as a sign of prosperity, which very well can be interpreted this way. I personally have felt, long before you began this post, that the technological advances we have made have in large part been our undoing. But, the argument can be made that a society often has become more prideful and hard hearted in times of prosperity when it is easy to forget where our blessings come from.... I really like your last paragraph because it resonates with me. In my own pursuit of coming to know God more, I feel He has pointed out to me, in a very deep and poignant way, that it is not mine to know Him as much as it is to acknowledge that He is the one who knows me perfectly.....It's hard to know how to put this in words. He is omniscient, I am ignorant. I need to deeply know this to come to Him appropriately. To realise I am in no way His equal; but, rather as a little child coming to her Father, with all that humility and trust that entails. Yes, it is important to seek education and knowledge in all fields. But, I personally feel I need to follow the promptings of the Holy Spirit as to where to spend my time learning so that I can have His blessing in whatever field(s) I choose to study. Never forgetting my relationship to Him..... Take Care Dove

What a wonderful answer! Thank you..... I guess I feel/believe, wrongfully or not, that it is when I am trying to follow His will for me that everything becomes so difficult and trial ridden. Maybe this is all necessary for my eternal growth and development. After all, if I'm not willing to give all that I am and all that I have to God, then I am not worthy of all that He has to give me in the eternities. So, I believe much of my suffering is as a result of attempting to draw closer to Him and being put through a "refiner's fire" in order to truly attain that goal. On the other hand, I am quite vulnerable and overly reliant on the arm of flesh. This has given me quite a bit of heartache too......Perhaps God is working to excise this weakness from me to more fully come to Him..... Regardless, your usage of the word "peace" is certainly worth noting to me and the context in which you used it.......You certainly did not say "fun and games," or "no opposition." You simply said "Peace," which I have long searched for. Thanks again Dove

I don't believe science is "all that and a bag of chips." If I understand correctly, the whole Bible came to be without all the science we have today. In fact, I believe the reason we have progressed so much in scientific fields in the past 200 years is due to God allowing that enlightenment to come to pass. It just doesn't make sense that for thousands of years there was so little progress made and then in these past 200 years so much accelerated growth has occurred in science and technology. I believe it's because the heavens were opened and this knowledge was given to us. Also, our knowledge in the science fields is always flawed, no matter how progressed we are today. I have seen "science" and it's follies so many times in dealing with medical people, for example. Often at the expense of my own health. Science is always a "hit and miss" in trying to answer the question posed. It's interesting to me Traveler, that you would say that science should be taught in schools first, rather then religion. I think it is much more important to study the attributes of God first, and then try and understand His handiwork through scientific methodology. I believe we should be careful of exalting science and/or our own learning to such a degree as to make it equal to coming to Christ and humbly submitting ourselves to His will......Frankly, while science may make our standard of living much higher today and much more comfortable, I don't believe it has done anything more to bring each individual closer to our Creator........A person who was born when there was no science to be had has just as equal of a chance to be exalted as any of us who have been born in this era. Please don't misunderstand me. I would like to study the sciences more......But, I don't feel my eternal standing with God is necessarily contingent on my doing this, at least in this life.... Dove

I really like what you have said in this post. I am concerned though...and would like your input/feelings on my concern. So many times in life I have experienced a great deal of heartache/opposition in the process of trying to do "God's will." So, at times, I totally want to run away from Him and trying to do His will. How can I be true to Him and myself at times like this? It seems like this quandary is still occurring in my life. Right now it's the ward I'm in. I have had such a difficult time in this ward. I want to move; yet, I feel the Spirit telling me to stay, which is what my husband wants as well. I will probably stay; but, with some foreboding. It's just going to continue to be hard. This is just an example. Care to share your thoughts? Thanks Dove

First off, congratulations on being self-disciplined enough to get your doctorate!! And in a service oriented field as well! This is so great! Please pat yourself on the back for all the good you've done in your life already. Yes, it is ultimately by grace that we are saved. So, you can also be grateful to God for giving you the strength to be such a success in your life!! Also, good for you to choose to do so well...Again, Congratulations!! (I was just going over my post before submitting it. Gee, I really hope those first two paragraphs didn't sound condescending or patronising. I'm sorry if they did. I really did mean them....My own mother got her doctorate in education years ago. I know that takes so much discipline and dedication to do.....I'm sincere in saying how good you're doing already, with or without being married.) You seem to be wondering about marriage not out of a true desire for it; but, rather, kind of out of a guilty conscience more so. I don't know if this is right or not, it just sounds that way when you talk about not really being interested in dating but feeling like you should be. Marriage isn't everything in life. What is most important is you being true to you....and it sounds like you are doing this already. Sure, pray about it more.....One thing that helps me is to pray for the self honesty needed to resolve various situations and my part in them. What I'm trying to express to you is to maybe pray for self honesty or the realisation as to why you're not interested in dating right now. It may be well to get in touch with your emotions concerning marriage and dating. Marriage is a huuge commitment. And for women, it often means sacrificing their desires for a career to be a stay at home mom. I think you would be an ideal mom because you are so on top of your life/self and your goals. In other words, you seem to have your own "house in order" and the disposition of wanting children in your life and to take care of them. All this is positive in being a mother. So, maybe for you, it's the commitment to another person that's holding you back. I don't know and can't tell you. I'm sure you realise that is for you to work through. Regardless, it sounds like you have done so well in your life thus far. Don't make the marriage issue too big. If you want to get married in your mind, try to figure out what it is in your heart that's keeping you from pursuing this. Best of wishes to you Dove

I remember a class I took in college. It was about how to succeed in college and in getting your degree. I remember the professor stating that the students who succeeded in college were those who had a lot of support from the people around them. Also, that the students who didn't have this support did fail..... Can you get support from your family/friends to help you keep your goals? Maybe joining a scripture study group/study group for school? You mentioned cruzing with family after church. Would you be comfortable telling your family you would like their support in getting your studies (school and religious) done? There's nothing like family scripture study or studying with other people. Lastly, be gentle with yourself. Try to understand what is causing you to do these things.....I'm a woman, so I'm approaching this in a feminine way, which may not work for you. But, are you bored with school? Tend more towards wanting to socialise with your family then study? Get in tune with what's causing you to be lazy/procrastinate and try to resolve that or alleviate it or make studying as inviting and fun for yourself as possible... Best of Luck Dove

If you believe that you bishop cannot keep your confidential confession, I wouldn't tell him. Can you go to the stake president or area authority, instead? The bishop is absolutely not supposed to tell another single soul (besides the leaders over him, who should keep it confidential as well) about what you confess. And if everyone and their dog found out about your husband's confession, a serous breach of confidence happened. I have had a way different experience of "confessing" to my bishops in the past. I had my story told over the pulpit within weeks of telling it to my bishop. That bishop was then released shortly afterward (not related to telling my story over the pulpit) and the next bishop told his relief society president, who then spoke about it to a woman in the ward, etc., etc..... I'm trying to caution you not to throw your caution to the wind and trust to a bishop who has already broken your husband's trust by telling the elders quorum president about what your husband confessed. This is a big red flag waving to let you know that more then likely your story will be told in like manner. Go to your stake president and explain to him why you won't go to the bishop about this......That he already told your husband's story and broke the confidentiality. This is just my opinion/stance. The best of wishes Dove

Sometimes I get tired of the "feminist" movement in the church. I believe the church to be obviously patriarchal; yet, I'm not a member to change that. I'm a member because I believe that the priesthood authority is truly the "authority to act in God's name" here on earth. I do have a personal testimony of it strength and power in my life. That being said, no one is forcing these women to be members of the church.....And I don't believe it is ours to change it to fit our view of what life should be/the church should be. They can certainly go and start their own feminist "church." Why change the true Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day-Saints? What authority do they have to do that? None...... Yes, I do struggle with woman's issues and the church. But, I never will be one to start political uprisings to change that for my comfort. It's not mine to do. There certainly are plenty of churches that have doctrine to comfort everyone. But, to me, those are going to become as "dust in the wind" in the face of Christ's true church. Dove

I've worked both with psychiatrists and psychologists. They each have their field of study. However, if I understand correctly, from a couple of the psychologists I have worked with, psychologists, by law, are not allowed to prescribe medicines. That's the psychiatrists role. Have you thought of allowing your psychologist/psychiatrist confer with each other to be able to come to an agreement as to what is happening? This might be worthwhile to get this hashed out. Best of wishes

You may be "crossing boundaries" by telling your boss to "chill out" so to speak. I would suggest not engaging in his anxiety ridden behaviours. I.E., ignoring the behaviour that is negative and reinforcing/responding to the positive...as much as you can. Don't play into the tense negativity. Do your best, and your best to show him what you have done. Other then that, it's his problem.

I thought Jillian was way too harsh. Unfortunately, I believe it showed with her team losing the least amount of all three teams.....It's too discouraging to be working so hard only to have someone taunting you as you do it. Yes, it's important to push one's self.....but, I think she is going overboard.

I hope we would. What's sad is how much the women outnumber the men in church membership. I have heard statistics that, after a certain age, women outnumber the men three to one. And that the older we get, the worse it gets. I do think there is more responsibility to be placed on the men to get married, as long as they are equipped to do so in various ways (financially, physically, spiritually, emotionally). I feel this way because they do have a much wider array of spouses to choose from then the women do. However, it is not mine to judge...So, yes, I hope I would be as kind to a man in her predicament as I have been to her. Dove

Is there a reason you are hesitating? Do you get along with your in-laws? Is there something more causing you to ask this question here that you haven't told us yet? Just wondering. I could never move in with my in-laws, personally. So, I'm wondering if you are in the same situation to some degree~

LP: I really appreciate you honesty about your past abuse. It's comforting because I relate to it. I was once told in a priesthood blessing that until I forgave the person who molested me, I would not be able to forgive myself....I'm not so sure about that. Like you, I sometimes construe forgiving as condoning....Saying that I forgive is akin to saying it was okay, when it really wasn't. The person who molested me is now deceased. While I don't wish revenge on him, I do wish for no further contact with him eternally....I don't ever want to be forced or coerced into seeing him or associating with him again. I'm working on "forgiving," and this is my best. I don't have all the answers. Again, for me, forgiving is so much about letting go and letting God. Letting Him take care of the justice part. While I work on my own repentance and salvation and being kind to others, etc. Thanks again Dove

Hello, LiterateParakeet; I hear anger in your opening post. Which I relate to. I've been praying for quite awhile to forgive anybody and everybody who has offended me in my life. This is a long list, lol and sorry to say. I have soo much anger, frustration, resentment and more that so easily turns to revenge in my thoughts. I realize that my anger is my own problem and my own thing to overcome. I can't blame others for it, or at least, for those times I choose to indulge myself in it in a carnal way.... However, I don't believe that the primal emotion of anger is necessarily evil. I believe that if someone is attacking me and attempting to destroy me, that anger is a natural and protective response. How I deal with those feelings is what is either good or bad. If anger leads me to step away from a destructive interchange, I think that is positive. But, if anger leads me to lash out and try to destroy the other out of anything other then self defense, that is where it becomes detrimental and evil. I'm still trying to figure out the "forget" part of forgiving. In this sense; if a person is exhibiting patterns/behaviors of being abusive or destructive towards me, without any intention of repenting, I can forgive him/her (not hold hard, bitter feelings of hatred or revenge) but walk away from the abuse/destruction. Meaning, not be an accessory to my own abuse. Actually, there have been many people I've held quite a grudge towards for many years. I have prayed quite a bit to forgive. And, at times, with sorrow, to pray for their well being. One time when I was praying for this, a beautiful realization came over me. That it really wasn't about those people; but, my relationship to God. My sense of His caring concern and whether or not I could trust Him to be fair and just in any given situation. This has given me a lot of strength to let go of the control and leave these people in His hands. There are plenty of evil people in this world. I believe I have had contact with some of them. Not being angry because of their choice to pursue that which is evil has more to do with trusting God and going to Him for protection and to follow His will then it has anything to do with the person I happen to come across who is threatening to destroy me. I say "threatening" because in an eternal sense, only I have the choice to be destroyed or saved through choosing to follow Christ. Hope this helps Dove

My first thought in reading you post? Don't be too hard on yourself~ It sounds like you've had some difficult things happen in your childhood. That you have issues spawning from your childhood is not your fault. Yes, they are your responsibility to address and for you to do your best to invite healing and to overcome them. But, again, they are not your fault.... As far as marriage goes; I would suggest that you not sweat over it too much, one way or the other. Do all you can to "be square" with God. Lose yourself in seeking and following His personal will for you~whatever that may be. Reach out, as much as you are able and willing to, in kindness to others. I guess what I'm trying to say is, lose yourself in the service of God and others (including taking care of yourself). Leave the marriage question in His hands. He will answer that in His own due time. It's up to you to make the best of the hand life has dealt you. Take responsibility for your happiness. I think of the saying; "If it's to be, it's up to me." Also, my sister in law gave me sage advice during those long years of being single. If I am not happy being single, I will not be happier being married. Happiness is a state of mind, not a marital status. Best of wishes in your journey Dove

I hurt for your wife (and you) in what sounds to be circumstances rife with opposition. I relate because I will never be able to have children myself~I struggle with feeling lost as to what my purpose is in the church with being childless. And yes, I have a slew of health problems. So, adopting doesn't seem wise at this point. I have always had a hard time socializing in church. Friends, true friends, I find to be few and far between. This is not saying that your wife cannot find friends, or be one to others. I don't know what her situation is; but, it sounds like she is confined by her health problems and that gaining friends is difficult for her to do. Many times in my life, when I've felt or actually been alone, even in a crowd, the Spirit has told me repeatedly that I am not alone. Lately, I feel it is the Savior, reassuring me time and again, that He is my best friend. There have been times in my life when, I believe, my circumstances worked together to bring me to a state of being alone over periods of times. Being alone/lonely is a major theme in my life. I believe this is for me to turn to God. To let go and let Him. My various problems leave me vulnerable to overly relying on others.....I rely on the "arm of flesh" all too easily. Autonomy and independence are important virtues for me to acquire, along with relying on following God's will for me with my heart, mind, might and strength. So for me, being alone is teaching me many things. Along with being my own, infinitesimally smaller, Gethsemane. I feel the whole point of my existence is to come to God. Also, to realize my full potential, as His daughter, in the process. Just my .02 cents worth. Best of wishes. Dove

I strongly relate to what you are saying. I think a lot about how I have lived my life and what my purpose is in staying here on earth. My dreams, goals and aspirations have pretty much all ended in failure. My life has not turned out at all as I expected. Wow, I am far from where I thought I would be at this point in my life. No temple marriage, kids, degree, etc. Everything blessing I was promised in my patriarchal blessing has not been realized, while, all the things I was warned about to either not do or beware of I have done or they have come to pass. It can be quite indicting. So, what do I say from here? Just yesterday I prayed in my heart about this very thing. I said to HF that I was sick of trying to manage my own life. That I had botched it up quite badly and that I no longer wanted to try to do it without Him, fully. Meaning, that I wanted to give myself over wholly to His will for me. Now I'm not sure what this means in day to day living. Some steps I want to take is daily prayer and scripture study. I know you have probably heard that many times; but, for me it is soo hard to consistently do. I've learned a lot from my perceived "failure" in how I've lived my life. Humility by acknowledging what King Benjamin taught; that without God, I am nothing. Gratitude for being alive still. even after all that has happened in my life and my attitude towards it. A sense of peace in letting go and letting God. Taking it one day at a time, one step at a time, one piece at a time. That the little kindnesses I've experienced from others and have given others are highly valuable in the eternal scheme of things. That eternity is in this moment for me. Meaning, that all that matters is my state of mind in the present. As far as being "selfish" and following my carnal desires. I am guilty as charged, LOL........I have prayed often for purification of my mind and heart. To do things for Christ like reasons. To love others simply for the joy of loving another living thing. To give for the joy of giving, etc. Of course, there is the opposition of life. The deeply bitter to know the deeply sweet. This in itself is a chastening and refining process to truly be purified. Which is what I want to be. I think, for me, in part, that my purpose in life is to come to God and to become like Him. As Jesus has said, "Come unto Me," and "Come follow me." This is what I aspire to do. The best in your journey. Dove

Merry Christmas, Eowyn!