Dove

Hello, Lemonherb; Thank you so much for relating your experience(s) here~ I soo relate to what you are saying/going through. While I have a wonderful and loving husband, I still feel quite lonely at times. I, too, am passionate and intense. I, too, love being desired, wanted and known....and not just on a sexual level.....While my parents didn't divorce until I was in Jr. High, my dad was very obviously physically abusive. Yet, it wasn't until years later that the sexual abuse came out. I relate this because, I, too, as a result of the sexual abuse, related to older men/father figures in a very abnormal way of sexualizing them rather than relating to them in a healthy way of what a young person would do in having father figures in her life. Did that make sense? I soo needed a father figure in my life. The only way I knew how to relate to older men that could have filled that role was in a sexual way, due to the sexual abuse I had as a child. This being said, it took me years to realize the true "Father figure" I needed was my Heavenly Father. To know that He loved me perfectly and appropriately. I still struggle with the abuse of my childhood. It haunts me everyday of my life. I look at it in the same way I look at my diabetes. I can "manage" the effects of the abuse in my life today; but, I'll never be fully healed in this life.... May I offer some suggestions to you? First of all, don't hate yourself or be hard on yourself. You are not the judge of yourself, God is. Seek His love and forgiveness for you. Have compassion for yourself. The Spirit will let you know the extent of His displeasure with you as you go through the repentance process, if this is indeed needed. However, I have always experienced the love of God as being far less judgemental and unkind than any human love I have experienced. Do your best to trust in Him right now. Let Him do the judging, not you. Another suggestion I would give would be to pray for the self-honesty to come to a deeper understanding as to how the abandonment of your earthly father is still effecting you today. Counselling may help you with this endeavour. The Spirit surely will. Also, I, myself, don't ascribe to any 12 step program. I have attended many meetings. I don't fully agree with going back and finding everyone in my history whom I have offended/maybe offended, to apologize to and try to make "amends." Perhaps I'm wrong in saying this point of view. I have prayed about this and feel that instead of focusing on past wrongs to instead focus on what current behaviours I need to repent of in this moment. To fix the here and now, rather than trying to undo what I cannot in the past. Maybe, at some point in time, I can work the 12 steps and feel happy doing so. Right now I choose not to. Another suggestion I would give is to not expect your husband to be able to fill all your needs, if any. Also, realize that no human being, other than you (through the atonement of our Savior, Jesus Christ) can fill your needs. Focus on, not only serving others right now; but, on developing those talents that make you happy and that you can use in the service of others. If you're passionate, maybe an acting class, or writing class, or something in the arts where you can sing your passion out with beauty. Whatever you can do and enjoy doing, go for it. My sister-in-law used to tell me, when I was still single at 35, that if I wasn't happy being single, I would be no more happy being married. That my happiness wasn't contingent on another person or my marital status. I agree with this. I have found often throughout my life that most of my human relationships are very short and transitory. I have very few long term friends, other than my sweet husband. Even a girlfriend I've had from childhood is living her own life with gusto, a lot without me. What I'm trying to say is that, while socializing with others, loving and being loved by others, is important, there's many hours where you will be alone. Strive to love yourself and grow in self-esteem/self-confidence to be comfortable in your own skin. You know, I have felt lonely in a crowded room. Strive for your own autonomy. Rely on yourself more as well as our Heavenly Father, His Son, and the Holy Ghost. I would like to share an experience with you where I was totally alone on New Year's Eve in 1999. It was the big New Years Eve before the year 2000. I had recently broken up with my then boyfriend in order to be chaste and to become active once again in church. I had invited several people to be with me that night. No one accepted my offer. It was bittersweet to go to "First Night" in Salt Lake City and see some of those people walking around without me. I had no one with me! As I listened to a symphony in the Tabernacle on Temple Square, the Spirit strongly bore witness to me in that moment that I was not alone. It was so clearly said to me. While I don't understand it to this day, I know there was a message in that for me and my loneliness. Love yourself, through the atonement. Then, love your neighbour as yourself. Go easy. Love your husband the best that you can with the pure love of Christ. No expectations and no demanding that he fulfil you anymore. You cannot find your fulfilment in another person totally, perhaps even marginally. Only you and your Father in Heaven can do that. The best of luck Dove

Hello, Darcy23; We're all rooting for you here and hoping the best for you. I strongly believe that, through the atonement of our Savior, Jesus Christ, you can do this. I have a profound testimony of the strength of the atonement acting in my life to help me quit smoking and resist being "lustful." I was able to quit years ago for several years through a priesthood blessing. It was a miraculous healing. I would suggest that you ask for a priesthood blessing from the missionaries who are coming to visit you or the bishop of the ward (another word for different mormon congregations) you live in. Know that you are a wonderful person whom God knows personally and loves dearly. He will guide and direct you to your correct path. I also believe that He will give you the strength to overcome those things that are keeping you from being able to be baptized in the LDS church. This is the true church of Jesus Christ. Please, read the Book of Mormon and pray to know if it is true. Seek all the support and help you can get from other LDS members. Most of all, seek the help of God in doing the best things for you and what will make you the happiest~It will come, with diligent patience. You can do this! The best, Dove

Yeah, but both people have to be committed to making it work. It sounds like this husband is critical, controlling and hurtful to the OP. That he gives it lip service to getting counseling/help and that he rather degrades the OP. It's not a celestial marriage just because the ceremony was performed in the Temple. It's a celestial marriage when they, as well as marrying in the temple, act accordingly. Being unkind to one's spouse consistently does not a celestial marriage make. It's not her fault or responsibility to make the marriage work anymore than what she's doing already if her husband is treating her in a demeaning way.... To the OP, I would say that if you are truly unhappy in your marriage with just cause (i.e., your husband isn't treating you in a way consistent with how the Savior would treat you) to ruuunn. If he's treating you poorly now, this is just a foreshadowing of how he will treat your potential children. Don't stay with someone who is not supporting you in being happy.

Hello, TheOnlyJared; Your honesty is poignant~I hope you can find some comfort here at LDS net...A lot of people here are caring and concerned, as perhaps evidenced by the many replies you've received. I kind of feel bad because what I wrote for you to consider was meant only as a suggestion; not to tell you you're not doing good enough. Or, perhaps it's more that what I described didn't fit your come from. It seems you've gotten some clarity on what you need at this time; which is great. I'll keep you in my prayers that you will indeed find that "shoulder to cry on." Dove

Hello, TheOnlyJared; You're situation leaves me hurting for you, too.....I'm so sorry you're having to go through this. I have often felt lonely myself throughout my life. I've had several instances where no one was around me physically; yet, the Spirit would reassure/tell me that I was not alone. The Spirit has told me this repeatedly. So, what to do to feel better? I would suggest praying to understand where this intense feeling of loneliness is coming from. Pray to feel His love for you. It has helped me to pray to have more self-esteem and love for myself. While this may sound selfish, remember the scripture to love our neighbour as ourselves~ How can we love our neighbour if we do not love ourself? Most important to me in feeling better is to draw closer to God through scripture study and prayer. Reach out to others, too, both to help them and to get support through this difficult time. Oh yeah, by the way, if you can't get a dog right now, I know in many places you can volunteer at a dog shelter and take the dogs there walking. This might help. For me, there have been no easy answers to my sense of loneliness. A lot of it is building up my self esteem through God's help....Becoming self confident and comfortable in my own shoes. Please, do not beat yourself up for the things you did/didn't do in the relationship you had with the girl you're speaking of. Prepare yourself for the time when another relationship will come into your life. The best Dove

This reminds me a lot of this thread; http://www.lds.net/forums/marriage-relationship-advice/41166-would-do-more-damage-come-clean.html Hopefully this will help the OP as well...

I've read through everyone's comments and I like a lot of what I've read. After reading through them, a thought has occurred to me. Maybe "respecting others" with common courtesy is more about who I am than who or what they are. I am reminded of a scripture in the Doctrine and Covenants. This is in regards to casting out an evil spirit; "And it shall be given unto you, power over that spirit; and you shall proclaim against that spirit with a loud voice that it is not of God- Not with railing accusation, that ye be not overcome, neither with boasting nor rejoicing, lest you be seized therewith." These verses tell me that even when I am dealing with an evil spirit to not do it rudely or unkindly lest I will be "overcome" or "seized therewith." This tells me that how I act towards another person/entity is what matters, not what they're doing. To always speak with kindness and respect. For myself, regardless of what they've done. Maybe this is a different meaning of respect than what's being discussed here. Evil is evil and is not desirable. But, I don't have to be evil when dealing with an evil person or entity. Dove

oh, ouch! That sounds like a back handed insult to me...The person writing it may have been totally oblivious to the impact of what they were saying. Still, ouch!

PS; As far as bcguy's comments that WWII was much worse....I don't think this should be about comparing as to which murder, or number of murders, are worse than the other. What's sad is that this type of abuse is being found in our culture. Perhaps right in our own back yards~ Please, let's not digress by saying something is worse than this. Whether or not that's true is not the point. The point is that ritual abuse is happening in our society today. Up close and personal, right now. It is heinous to the victims that have lived it. We should do all we can to expose it and fight against it. Not argue that something in history is worse. Dove

I'm sorry, I don't intend this to be rude. But, isn't this kind of old news? I've heard of this stuff going on for over 20 years. I remember as a missionary my senior companion talking about stuff like this happening in the worst places. My brother and his friend found a house in Springville, UT, where there were dead animals all over the place that had been sacrificed/killed in one of these satanic/occult practices. I was given a good book that addressed sexual and ritualistic abuse in our LDS culture. It was a credible book written by a therapist attempting to offer positive healing in abuse like this. It's been so many years ago when I was given it that I was trying to look up the title to quote in my thread. I didn't find it; but, was so surprised to see all the different references to this on the web. Yes, I strongly believe that this is a real and heinous evil practised by many people we don't even suspect. Of utmost importance is to offer love and kindness to the victims in this horrible abuse.

Hello, Apollyon; First of all, thank you for your tactful honesty. Thank you for reaching out for support in a humble way. Some thoughts that came to my mind are as what follows~ I saw a heterosexual couple on TV from BYU who both struggled with homosexuality. They both had SSA, yet were determined to make their marriage work. Could this be an option for you? It seems you are setting the bar rather high against yourself as far as what a woman may think of you for being "gay." Yes, some woman may judge you as "less than," or refuse to consider you as spouse material, or reject you in some other way....Please know that, while I myself am pretty hetero (I really do like men in a romantic way), that didn't guarantee mormon men being attracted to me or seriously considering me as a potential spouse. I ended up marrying outside of our faith. As I've said many times here before, I love my husband dearly. Yet, I know I very probably have put my opportunity for exaltation in jeopardy. If you remained single, at least, in the end, it will give you a stronger opportunity for exaltation. However, it does seem that you are open to having a member of the opposite sex as a companion in this life and maybe as an eternal companion in the hereafter. Is this something you would be willing to consider and would be happy with over the long term? If not, you are probably being very wise to not wish harm upon another child of God/children of God you may bring into this life. Lastly, I strongly believe, at least for myself, that sexuality is a choice. That one can "learn" or be "exposed to" sexual feelings for just about anyone/anything. To me, sexuality and the pure Love of Christ are two different things. While one can love their spouse with the pure love of Christ, even through physical intimacy, still this is their choice to put the two together. My point being, that sex is not the end all in any relationship. Carnally speaking, it brings only temporary pleasure. While the pure love of Christ is eternal.... Just my .02 cents. The best to you in your decision making. Dove

Traveler; I really like you're clarification. One thing it reminds me of is King Benjamin's talk about how, without God, we are nothing...Meaning, we have nothing to merit of ourselves without the atonement of our Savior. That there is so much to learn that we can never learn it all on our own. It reminds me of a scripture in the New Testament. Something about ever learning yet never coming to a knowledge of the truth. I'm not sure that I would place scientific study as equal to scripture study. (I'm a musician, not a scientist) Yet, I think your point is valid. That not only is it important to read the scriptures; but, to utilize them in experiencing life. That the only way we will be able to truly understand them is to live and experience them. 2 Nephi 9:28-29 comes to mind; "O that cunning plan of the evil one! O the vainness and the frailties and the foolishness of men! When they are learned they think they are wise and they hearken not unto the counsel of God, for they seit it aside, supposing they know of themselves, wherefore, their wisdom is foolishness and it profiteth them not. And they shall perish. But to be learned is good if they hearken unto the counsels of God." I was thinking that if I had to choose between a field of study or scripture study for the rest of my life, I would definitely choose scripture study. But, that would be pretty hard if I didn't know how to read! lol. As you said Traveler, maybe it is a balance between the two. I think you also bring up an interesting subject of functioning in a physical world vs. the spiritual. You said, "The goal in life is not to become so “spiritually minded” that we are of no earthly value." Of course, my mind immediately goes to the scripture, "Be in the world; but, not of the world." I think this refers to the sin and the corruption of the world rather than it's simple physical state. For the first time I am considering the physical aspects of simply learning about our world, which I find fascinating when I do. Speaking as one who has struggled with being in this world many a time, you have certainly given me food for thought, Traveler. Thank you. Dove

Hello, Traveler; Thanks much for the kind response. It gives me an example as to how to be more~ I had no idea that Telsa saw a brush-less electric motor in vision before inventing it. That he would acknowledge that is doubly good. My response to your reply as a whole is, "Sure, why not?" While I haven't thought of it in this way before, I have often felt/believed that the technology explosion of the last 100-150 years was divinely inspired. My fear is that it seems that many scientists turn away from a belief in God and go into either an agnostic or atheistic belief system. I have seen the Christian "fish" with feet, representing Darwinism, so many times! Of course I acknowledge the debate between Creationism/Darwinism. I really don't know how the world was created/formed. This doesn't effect my belief in G-d at all. I am very secure in my knowledge/belief that He lives and that their is a spiritual realm/supernatural realm as well as the Holy Ghost speaking to me. My other fear I pretty much stated in my first response to your thread. That a lot of religions/religious people try to prove the miracles of the Savior and Father in Heaven by physical means, instead of relying on the Holy Ghost for confirmation. Still, I would like to study science more. I believe this is a worthwhile pursuit. The best; Dove

Seminary Snoozer; You have an interesting perspective...I don't often think of "serving" God in the good I try to do. This is a weakness of mine. I believe I struggle with it more due to the examples of people around me who have claimed they are serving Him and yet have had such a poor attitude of resentment and of being passive-aggressive. I so seldom find the soul who truly loves with sincere intent and purity of heart. Though, as I think about this, a few faces come to mind of people I truly felt befriended by... This leads me to rethink how I perceive God and how I approach Him. I think your perspective is beautiful, if done in sincerity and truly wanting to serve Him. As I write this, I realize that I haven't been giving Him the credit for all things good and right. Wow, what a thought for me! As I just said, so often through my life I have often doubted the sincerity of those who proclaim His name and yet have acted so contrary to His teachings. I fear I've let that influence how I view doing good works and even how I view Him. Thanks again. Dove

Hello, Dahlia; Thanks for bringing this subject up. I think this is an important topic that is good to address. When I was single, I certainly had a hard time with keeping the Sabbath day holy. I felt as if I was shut off of the world as a whole... Certainly, do get out. Have you thought of serving others on the sabbath? I know in my singles ward we were assigned to a nursing home to assist in having a Sacrament meeting for the elderly. I still remember doing that. So glad that I did.... Maybe you can go to a retirement home and read scriptures to a person who can't see. Or serve a meal to the homeless. Or be a big sister to a neglected or abused child and spend time with them. There are so many opportunities to serve. See what's up at your ward to do. Are you able to attend a singles ward? If not, is it possible to befriend another member and do things together on the Sabbath? I don't know if you can go to a fireside or other church activity in the area your at. Just an idea. One idea would be to attend another meeting block to meet more people and potential friends. This may sound like traveling through a fiery furnace. I remember being in the MTC and studying the gospel alll day! Two church blocks seemed like nothing after that. Good luck in finding creative, sabbath day activities. Please let us know how you're doing with this in the future. I do struggle with feeling alone on the sabbath. It's the first day my husband goes back to work and I'm alone the whole evening. I should take my own advice! Dove

Hello, Seminary Snoozer; I appreciate you responding to my comment and also for your input. I read what you wrote a couple of times to be sure I understood what you were saying. This so I could respond appropriately and on point. :) First, let me reassure you that when I used the terms "doing good for goodness' sake," I meant it in a Godly way and not a carnal or lustful way. I like your points about having an eternal perspective vs. immediate gratification. I certainly struggle with bridling my lusts (especially with smoking) and wanting to "feel good" now~Something our fast food culture/society certainly teaches us. As far as doing things out of "love for our gracious Father in Heaven," while this can be an impetus (and probably ideally done this way) for seeking to do good works, I personally struggle with it. There have been several times I have felt like someone's service project....That they were "serving me" out of a hidden agenda of doing their "duty" and what they thought they should/ought/better do to be "good," perhaps even to serve God. I always felt a lack of sincerity in this (they generally dropped me like a hot potatoe once they were done with their "project") and rather demeaned. Although I thought I had found a friend, they certainly had a different take, or perspective about it. Granted, the greatest commandment of all is to "love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind." But, a close second to this commandment is to "love thy neighbour as thyself." Because I struggle with thinking of the eternal perspective of things, I choose to focus instead on viewing my eternity, be it of happiness and joy, or misery and suffering, as being experienced in the moment. Meaning, there is so much to experience in the here and now, including finding joy in simply "loving my neighbour" because they are an extension of our Heavenly Father, or are His children. Hence, simply because it is joyous and worthwhile to do so. I truly believe that my heaven (or hell) is right here, right now in how I'm experiencing and perceiving events in my life. For me, the celestial kingdom isn't so much a place as it is a state of mind. We are so blessed to have the gift of the Holy Ghost to guide us, comfort us, sanctify us, etc., and to witness to us of God's love for us. That can be felt wherever we are, right now, if we are willing to do those things (humility, obedience, being as a child) necessary to feel His Spirit. Lastly, life here is soo hard. I think of the verse in Alma, 37:17, which says; "for I do know that whosoever shall put their trust in God shall be supported in their trials, and their troubles, and their afflictions, and shall be lifted up at the last day." From this I believe that, it's not if life gets painful, hard and difficult, it's when. Also, that it's not about what's going on outside of us, but what is within us, that's so important. I am so grateful for the atonement, which lends a beauty to the opposition in life. There is such a beauty in being founded on "the rock of our Redeemer," (Helaman 5:12) through our trials and tribulations. When I feel the strength of the Spirit, a sweet calm comes over me, and I know all is well. We're only going to be here once in all of eternity. I want to live life to the fullest I can with the good, the bad, and the ugly! Forgive me. I think the difference in my perspective results from having diabetes and feeling the fragility of life so deeply as a result...The issues of life and death really are right in the middle of my eyesight because of this...Good news. Today I found out from my doctor's office that it is highly probable that my pancreas is still producing insulin. They will be doing a blood test on me to see how much it is producing. If enough is being produced, I may be able to get off insulin altogether with diet and, especially, exercise. I am so excited and elated about this. It gives me a great deal of hope. This after the fact that a relative who was diagnosed with diabetes at the same age I was died at age 48 (I'm 44). This was weighing heavily on my mind. I feel God is giving me a second chance to become healthy once again before I pass...Such mercy and grace! I do give a nod to those who believe differently (Mute and my brother) yet still believe in moral and ethical choices in life. That is to be recognized and be grateful for, to me. Dove

A chapter of scripture which comes to my mind is Doctrine and Covenants 76. It explains the three degrees of glory as well as the characteristics and traits of those assigned to each kingdom. It should make good reading for you if you are trying to understand "hell" from an LDS perspective. From what I understand; yes, there is a "hell" for those who have not received, or who have rejected their Savior....This suffering is only temporary. Once a person here has suffered for their sins in full, (they suffer for their sins because they refused the atonement in their lives) they are then assigned to the lowest kingdom, which is a kingdom of glory. But this kingdom of glory is far lesser than the glory of the celestial kingdom. Missionaries have often used the Biblical verse about the different firmaments of heaven and how they're likened to the "sun, moon and stars" in the differences of glory. The Doctrine and Covenants is a great resource for finding the latter-day revelations on the concept of "hell" and what it means for us....A great place to start would be to look up "hell" in the index and look up the scripture references for the Doctrine and Covenants. Best of wishes in your searching Dove PS~another scripture supporting my claim that those who refuse to repent and accept the Savior and His atonement in their lives suffer for their own sins is Doctrine and Covenants 19:15-20.

I would suggest a few ideas that may be helpful; First of all, whoa, take a step back and try to, through prayer and thought, determine why you would want this missionary? Has he given you any hint, clue or encouragement that he would want to keep in touch with you, even after his mission? If not, you may not want to search for him even after his mission. As Beefche pointed out, there is quite a difference in your ages. Also, I understand that you are in a vulnerable position right now as a single mother with two young children~That you would like an eternal companion and father for your children. As has been said, please be quite careful right now, as the adversary will try to play on your weaknesses to lead you to sin, or do something wrong or inappropriate. Make God thee Man in your life first, meaning seek Him first above all else, including the need for a spouse. Trust in Him. It sounds like you are doing this in part by praying and asking for a husband. Do all you can to be in the right circumstance/situation to meet a husband. Maybe join a ward for singles your age and like you. Maybe join an LDS dating site. Just whatever you can do to be in the right place to meet an outstanding and available man. Think of this missionary as already married. In other words, off limits. Wait on God while doing all you can to fulfill this need. If you follow Him and do this process in a righteous way, you will be given a wonderful spouse. I don't know when; but, He will provide a mate for you in His timetable that may not be when you thought you should have it. Remember, that if you are doing all you can do to follow Him, all your needs will be taken care of when it is best for you and your children's eternal welfare. Again, though, please be careful, it sounds like the adversary is trying to tempt you. Beware of this. Dove

Hi Leah, I have heard a statistic that only 40% (it may be 60%, not sure) of the members of the church are even considered active. I apologize if I'm butting in, I don't want to be rude. I just agree with Alucar, it is soo important for people to feel loved and welcomed at church. If we can't show love there, where in the world can we show it?!

Hello, Anachron; I so relate to what you experience at church! It is hard to socialize and talk to people for me as well. I have really struggled with this...I'm well known in my ward as being "less-active." There have been times when I've gone to church and have had 2-3 different people offer to escort me to the next meeting in the block. I had also bore my testimony one Sunday where I introduced myself, as was instructed. So many people in the ensuing weeks came up to me and called me by name; but, didn't introduce who they were, leaving me totally in the dark as to how I knew them. This happened at the grocery story and other places as well as church. What helped me to stop feeling so overwhelmed was to be honest with my Relief Society Pres. about my feelings and telling her what was happening to me. Before long, people started to ignore me more than approach me. It was a relief! Another thing that helps me is to have "one on one" conversations with people I already know and believe are friendly to me. I do better with one on one interchanges than with many people at a time. If even speaking "one on one" with people makes you uncomfortable, I would suggest you talk to one of the leaders about your feelings and ask not to be approached so much...Also, don't be shy to give a short, courteous answer to a question and then excuse yourself to walk away. You don't have to interact verbally if you don't want to. I'm not saying to be rude. I am saying that you can cut conversations short by showing you don't want to talk through words, body language and facial movements. Always be kind; but, love yourself enough to give yourself the space needed to be able to cope with this... Hope this helps. Dove

Mute; I appreciate your input. You remind me a lot of my brother. He's at least agnostic if not full blown atheist at this point. You both make some really good points~That it's not so much what we claim to believe as much as it is what we are. That there is intrinsic joy to be found in just doing "good" for goodness' sake (it will make us happier) than doing good for some great eternal reward...I really like these points. I remember hearing a saying. It goes, "I don't care how much you know, until I know how much you care." Sincerely showing good will towards others just because they are worth being shown this to one is soo important. I like what you say about going to God about our questions, rather than an open forum. There's a lot to be said about this as well. The Best, Dove

This thread brings to my mind a particular passage of scripture ; 1 And now, behold, my beloved brethren, I suppose that ye ponder somewhat in your hearts concerning that which ye should do after ye have entered in by the way. But, behold, why do ye ponder these things in your hearts? 2 Do ye not remember that I said unto you that after ye had areceived the Holy Ghost ye could speak with the btongue of angels? And now, how could ye speak with the tongue of angels save it were by the Holy Ghost? 3 aAngels speak by the power of the Holy Ghost; wherefore, they speak the words of Christ. Wherefore, I said unto you, bfeast upon the cwords of Christ; for behold, the words of Christ will dtell you all things what ye should do. 4 Wherefore, now after I have spoken these words, if ye cannot understand them it will be because ye aask not, neither do ye knock; wherefore, ye are not brought into the light, but must perish in the dark. 5 For behold, again I say unto you that if ye will enter in by the way, and receive the Holy Ghost, it will ashow unto you all things what ye should do. 6 Behold, this is the doctrine of Christ, and there will be no more doctrine given until after he shall amanifest himself unto you in the flesh. And when he shall manifest himself unto you in the flesh, the things which he shall say unto you shall ye observe to do. 7 And now I, Nephi, cannot say more; the Spirit stoppeth mine utterance, and I am left to mourn because of the aunbelief, and the wickedness, and the ignorance, and the bstiffneckedness of men; for they will cnot search dknowledge, nor understand great knowledge, when it is given unto them in eplainness, even as plain as word can be. 8 And now, my beloved brethren, I perceive that ye ponder still in your hearts; and it grieveth me that I must speak concerning this thing. For if ye would hearken unto the aSpirit which teacheth a man to bpray, ye would know that ye must cpray; for the devil spirit teacheth not a man to pray, but teacheth him that he must not pray. 9 But behold, I say unto you that ye must apray always, and not faint; that ye must not perform any thing unto the Lord save in the first place ye shall bpray unto the Father in the cname of Christ, that he will dconsecrate thy performance unto thee, that thy performance may be for the ewelfare of thy soul. (2 Nephi 32) This chapter says to "feast upon the words of Christ." Yet, it doesn't talk about the scriptures as much as it does the gift of the Holy Ghost. I believe an important distinction to make, especially in context to this thread. I do have a concern though~ While I appreciate science and would certainly like to study it more, I don't believe we can use scientific "proof" to prove the existence of God or anything Godly or of Him.....This would defeat the whole purpose of having faith. I believe that God intends that we cannot prove who He is, scientifically speaking, so we can develop our faith and learn how to rely on the promptings of the Holy Ghost... It's a pet peeve of mine when people try to prove the Bible/Book of Mormon through scientific ends. How many times has it been claimed that Noah's ark was found? Or that we have the true death shroud of the Savior, etc., etc.? It gets really annoying after awhile. Dove PS Yes, I do believe that humility is soo important in coming to know God and our relationship to Him. Humility is certainly a trait I am striving for. But, I absolutely feel the necessity of daily scripture study for my spiritual health....I can never presume I'm "advanced" enough to be okay without this.

I learned that the Savior was the only begotten Son of God in the flesh in the MTC as well. It took me aback then. As this is being discussed here and I did a little searching to see if this was still taught (it is), I realized there is probably a good reason as to why the lesson asserts this so strongly. For example, it says; Jesus Christ is the Firstborn in the spirit and the Only Begotten Son of God in the flesh. Among the spirit children of Elohim, the first-born was and is Jehovah, or Jesus Christ, to whom all others are juniors.14 Jesus Christ is not the Father of the spirits who have taken or yet shall take bodies upon this earth, for he is one of them. He is the Son, as they are sons or daughters of Elohim.15 [Jesus Christ] is essentially greater than any and all others, by reason (1) of His seniority as the oldest or firstborn; (2) of His unique status in the flesh as the offspring of a mortal mother and of an immortal, or resurrected and glorified, Father; (3) of His selection and foreordination as the one and only Redeemer and Savior of the race; and (4) of His transcendent sinlessness.16 There is no doubt in the minds of Latter-day Saints in relation to the existence and personage of the Lord God Almighty, who is the Father of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. There is no doubt in the minds of Latter-day Saints that Jesus is the Son of God, being begotten of the Father in the flesh.17 Jesus Christ is the Son of Elohim both as spiritual and bodily offspring; that is to say, Elohim is literally the Father of the spirit of Jesus Christ and also of the body in which Jesus Christ performed His mission in the flesh, and which body died on the cross and was afterward taken up by the process of resurrection, and is now the immortalized tabernacle of the eternal spirit of our Lord and Savior.18 Jesus Christ was born of his mother, Mary. He had a fleshly tabernacle. He was crucified on the cross; and his body was raised from the dead. He burst the bonds of the grave, and came forth to newness of life, a living soul, a living being, a man with a body, with parts and with spirit—the spirit and the body becoming a living and immortal soul.19 God the Father … is the Father of our spirits, and … the Father in the flesh, of his Only Begotten Son, Jesus Christ, who joined divine immortality with the mortal, welded the link between God and man, made it possible for mortal souls, on whom the sentence of death had been placed, to acquire eternal life, through obedience to his laws. Let us, therefore, seek the truth and walk in the light as Christ is in the light, that we may have fellowship with him, and with each other, that his blood may cleanse us from all sin.20 Maybe the reason this is so important as to be asserted is because it reminds us of the deity of Jesus Christ, as our Savior and Redeemer, as well as being born in this earthly state of a mortal mother. Being born in this state of a mortal mother left Him able to experience the pain, suffering, temptations and sorrows so necessary for Him to experience to be able to understand what we face here perfectly and to know how to succor us in the flesh. Being born of an Immortal, Perfect Father gave Him the power to perfectly resist temptation, suffer infinitely for our sins and not become overwhelmed by the suffering, and then to be resurrected to a perfected body. A gift also given to all of us freely. Some scriptures come to mind; Alma 15:1-9; 1 And now Abinadi said unto them: I would that ye should understand that aGod himself shall bcome down among the children of men, and shall credeem his people. 2 And because he adwelleth in bflesh he shall be called the cSon of God, and having subjected the flesh to the dwill of the eFather, being the Father and the Son— 3 The Father, abecause he was bconceived by the power of God; and the Son, because of the flesh; thus becoming the Father and Son— 4 And they are aone God, yea, the very bEternal cFather of heaven and of earth. 5 And thus the flesh becoming subject to the Spirit, or the Son to the Father, being one God, asuffereth temptation, and yieldeth not to the temptation, but suffereth himself to be mocked, and bscourged, and cast out, and disowned by his cpeople. 6 And after all this, after working many mighty miracles among the children of men, he shall be led, yea, even aas Isaiah said, as a sheep before the shearer is dumb, so he bopened not his mouth. 7 Yea, even so he shall be led, acrucified, and slain, the bflesh becoming subject even unto death, the cwill of the Son being swallowed up in the will of the Father. 8 And thus God breaketh the abands of death, having gained the bvictory over death; giving the Son power to make cintercession for the children of men— 9 Having ascended into heaven, having the bowels of mercy; being filled with compassion towards the children of men; standing betwixt them and justice; having broken the bands of death, taken upon ahimself their iniquity and their transgressions, having redeemed them, and bsatisfied the demands of justice. So, I see the necessity of the Savior being born of a mortal mother and a perfected, immortal Father. It makes a lot of sense to me.

Here is one reference to this effect; https://www.lds.org/manual/teachings-joseph-f-smith/chapter-40?lang=eng&query=jesus+christ+literal+son+heavenly+father

I understand what you're saying. So, Joseph F. Smith said this when he was not the president of the church? Perhaps, as you said, that really doesn't matter, even if he said it as a prophet~ Several years ago, I read a talk by, I believe, Pres. Benson or Hinckley, which emphasized basically the same things in the quote given of Joseph F. Smith, that the Savior is the literal begotten Son of God. I would like to find that talk again; but, doubt I could. A side note, two years back I gave a Sunday school lesson to 12 year old young men (I was called in at the last minute to do so, the teacher just didn't show up. I wonder if it was because of the lesson topic~) on how Heavenly Father was the Savior's literal Father. I focused on why it was so important (as the manual said to do so) that the Savior had Heavenly Father as His example. I'm almost sure I could find that lesson again, if it is important to you, or anyone else, that it be found.