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Posts posted by Fether

  1. 5 minutes ago, CV75 said:

    I’ve never heard of the teaching that people in the terrestrial kingdom should not wish to go the celestial kingdom

    And to clarify, I was not intending to say we should or do. I have never heard that nor think we should teach it.


    6 minutes ago, CV75 said:

    If a blessing seems unappealing or out of reach, that is where faith, hope and charity come in handy.

     Members who advertise that they are not seeking, or have given up hope, should be welcomed and loved in our meetings and discussions on this topic. These discussions should be void of contention and focused on the Atonement and doctrine of Christ. Human nature being as it is, people will have to rely on the Lord’s grace for this to go smoothly.

    Given our central message, I don’t think we should give equal time encouraging people to aspire or acquiesce to notions of dwelling outside of God’s presence. We should encourage them in their condition (Mosiah 18: 7 - 11) and help them to grow in faith.

    I’m not referring to people who fall short and feel like exaltation is out of reach. I’m referring to people who love the gospel, but choose to live a homosexual lifestyle. 

    Another question I could ask is “is it worth while or worth our time to help someone grow in basic Christian principles, such as faith hope and charity, when they reject specific and essential laws of God, such as the word of wisdom, law of chastity or modern revelation?” 

  2. I have been living with my parents for the last 3 weeks as we wait for our house to finish. Being here has given me a lot of time to talk with my parents and my sibling who are LGBTQ and so I have been entertaining different ideas, questions, and engaging in conversation with a mother who experienced first hand 1 kid that left the church, one that is gay, and one that is transgender. I love my mother so much and I am constantly impressed with how she has balanced supporting her children in love while remaining faithful in the church.

    One thing she spoke about was how she wished she had taught her kids that God's love and God's laws are not linked together. That no matter what decisions we make in life, God's love is always there. Additionally, she wished she could have taught the idea that just because you are "sinning" or believing differently from the church, doesn't mean you have to push away from God. 

    One thing we talked about was how in the church, we teach both that (a) we all must strive for the celestial kingdom, and (b) we will be happy wherever we end up, and if we end up in the terrestrial kingdom, we shouldn't wish for the Celestial Kingdom because we would feel extremely uncomfortable there. There seem to be a dichotomy in these two (somewhat cultural) beliefs.

    If it is true that we will be happy where we end up, and that anything higher would feel uncomfortable, why don't we hear discussions in church about not wanting celestial glory and it being ok to go the terrestrial kingdom? Why don't we make room in our teaching and culture for those that desire the lower law, for "people who do not accept the fulness of the gospel in this life... but live honorable lives" (PMG pg. 53). Should we make room or should the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints be a place for only those seeking exaltation? I recognize that in many ways we do, but we don't allow the conversation to be had out loud. And whether award welcomes that or not is based on a game of roulette.

    Now please don't take these questions as me wanting a cultural revolution or that even these changes SHOULD take place. In our conversation, I recognized many limitations and major issues with making such a change. Such as:
    - Will we inadvertently be teaching people to live terrestrial lives instead of celestial?
    - Would we have conflicts in classes where we are encouraging people to live celestial lives, but are surrounded by members who only desire terrestrial (ie lgbtq, people who reject the word of wisdom, etc.)
    - Would this create a stronger feeling of being judged by members who already feel looked down on at church (whether their feelings reflect reality or not)?

    This post is not me trying to shed words of wisdom, but rather me asking help to complete my thought and form a more solid opinion on the matter.

    I admit the logistics of rolling this out in a way that doesn't create an unintentional class system in the church may be difficult to overcome, but the Jehovah's Witnesses seem to work past this. 

    Could we successfully teach on the basic Christian values and allow all to participate and grow in that, yet be ok when we speak about the Word of Wisdom, LGBTQ, Eternal Marriage / family, the law of chastity, Roles of men and women, etc. and be ok when there are members who do not wish to live the higher law disagree? 


  3. 1 hour ago, mirkwood said:

    That is not a turn lane, so if you were makiing a proper right turn at the intersection and someone traveling in it as a turn lane  and hit you, they would be the violator. 


    Vort is also right, no harm, no foul, probably no ticket/action taken.

    Now... the spiteful side of fether wants to come out and start purposefully turning into these cars when they are violating this law and demand payment from them and their insurance companies.

    Can one make a reasonable living doing this?

  4. 59 minutes ago, MrShorty said:

    Interesting.... I recall when I took my driving test (back when we stuck our feet through the floorboards for accelerator/brake functionality) specifically asking the examiner this question (because one of my friends had been dinged for one or the other of these practices (either using the shoulder as a right turn lane or not, I don't remember which). My examiner told me to move as far to the right as reasonably possible when making a right turn and included using the shoulder when no right turn lane was painted. If memory serves, he even mentioned that moving as far right as reasonably possible helps to prevent the scenario mentioned by @Fether where one driver stays in the main striped lane and another driver uses the shoulder and both want to turn right at the same time.

    One of those things where the official traffic code is not consistently (if at all) enforced and maybe even inconsistently taught so that most of us don't really know and just do what we've always done??

    The scenario I am asking about refers specifically to a stop light or stop sign. When driving on a road (particularly busy ones) and you need to make a right turn where there is no stop sign/light, then yes, I think it is appropriate to use the shoulder.

    What I’m referencing is coming up to a red light. If there is no right turn lane, and there are three cars ahead of you that aren’t turning, can you use the shoulder as a path to turn right. 

  5. 5 minutes ago, Vort said:

    I'm fairly sure that the answer is no, it's not legal. I'm also fairly sure that as long as there is sufficient room and no property damage takes place, most cops won't waste their time ticketing someone for doing so. Maybe @mirkwood can provide insight, or at least give an informed opinion.

    I guess my real concern is if I am in the lane and I turn right from the lane and get hit by someone who is using g the shoulder as a right turn lane, is it considered my fault?

  6. For whatever reason, this has been coming up more and more as I drive. Maybe it is just unique to my Utah city.

    a solid white line marks the shoulder of the road where you aren’t suppose to drive. When making a right turn at a stop light where no right turn lane existsdo you remain in the lane you are in, or do you pull into the shoulder area, often times bypassing a line of people in your current lane.

    This is very much a safety question, as everyone on the road seems to have a different opinion. Just today, I was waiting behind a car at a stop light to turn right. Then three cars drove into the shoulder area, passing me and the other cars, and turned right. Had I been first in line and turned right, those three cars would have hit me.

    so in summary. While in line at a stop light, is it legal to leave your lane, drive on to the shoulder to bypass traffic and turn right?

  7. 8 hours ago, laronius said:

    For my previous bishop this was the constant dilemma he faced: increased reverence vs fostering ward unity, which like it or not often happens before and after sacrament mtg. Then the stake encouraged bishoprics to be on the stand to set the mood but there was always people coming in who either hadn't been there for a while or something and so the bishop would leave the stand to welcome them and so it just never really worked out.

    I’ll be honest... I actually value that socializing prior to sacrament meeting and the ability to welcome guests and members above the apparent need to be reverent.

    Im not willing to admit that I’d the way it ought to be... but that is just how I value it

  8. 1 hour ago, Emmanuel Goldstein said:

    Why is it that every other religion treats the sanctuary of their church as a sacred place for silent reflection and worship? But we treat ours as a social hall to catch up on how each others lives are going? Honestly, I want to come to church and be spiritually recharged, not listen to noisy chit-chat. If people want to catch up they should do it in the foyer.

    Said every bishop ever in existence...

    I would also argue that the  majority of other religions treat their service areas as social halls unless it has the appearance of a holy place (ie magnificent pillars reaching to the ceiling, stone walls, massive statue of Christ on the cross, pane glass murals etc.) From what I have seen, it has less to do with what we call it and more to do with what it looks like. Admittedly, sacrament halls don’t appear all that holy.

    I would also add that having children makes it hard to have that “ideal” atmosphere.

    lastly, I would ask how much do others affect your experience? Could your frustration be more damaging to your experience than bro jones talking about yesterday’s bbq?

    Notwithstanding... we should treat it as a holy place.

  9. If the grave has no victory, why is it we are sad when people die? Is it a sign that faith truly is not a knowledge of things? Does it show a lack of belief/faith in the gospel? Are we actually mourning the fact that we are worse off without them? Are we mourning because we won't see them for a long while?

    This is a question I have been asking myself for years now, so if I have asked this before... well... too bad.

    I first came across this question when I ran into a man on my mission who told me he can't believe in God because his 9-year-old daughter died. Now, I am not discounting this man's feelings as a loss of faith, rather just analyzing his experience up against what we know about the Plan of Salvation (after all, who would not be distraught over the loss of a child).

    Christ also wept at the death of Lazarus. Was he weeping because he died, or was he weeping because he saw the sorrow of those close to the death? a semi-close family member of mine died this last week and I am only now realizing I am only sad because I see that her children may not understand it all and that they will grow up without their mother now. I wasn't so much sad at her passing itself.

    Are our spirits just naturally inclined to value life since that is the whole purpose of our existence here? So despite there being a deeply rooted belief of an afterlife, our souls cannot help but feel sorrow when there is a loss of life?

    Is it possible to experience the death of a close one and feel no sorrow because one's faith in an afterlife is so strong that they know they will see them again? If yes, should we be concerned about the strength of our faith if someone dies and we are sad?

  10. 6 minutes ago, dprh said:

    Like I said before, I don't know of anyone who was Depressed reacting positively to "just get over it"  I would highly recommend against the tough love approach.

    I would never do the “get over it” approach. But rather the “if you want to be happy, stop doing these destructive things to yourself and realize many of your struggles are centered in pride.”

  11. 40 minutes ago, dprh said:

    Honestly, from your post, it sounds like you haven't put any study into it.  You've thought about it, but don't have any reference other than your own experience.  I'd suggest reading some articles on Depression or even talking to some people who have suffered with it.  It will probably change your outlook.  And until you do, it actually might be best for you not to talk about it.  The whole post came off as insensitive, uninformed, and rude.

    Oh absolutely I’m insensitive about, but this post wasn’t a “why don’t people just be happy!?” Post. Rather a “I recognize I don’t get it, what is the best way to do it?”.

    I have been to counseling many times in my life. Sometimes for myself and sometimes I go with my wife. 

    In the case of my wife, it wasn’t the things the therapist ever said that helped. Rather, the things my wife changed in her life is what helped her depression. And that is all I’m saying. I feel as though if my friend would take care of herself physically, recognize the pride that is in her that is demanding attention and forcing her to compare herself to everything and everyone, and realized her higher calling as a daughter of God and that God needs her and all her strengths.

    I don’t think anyone has said any of that to her. These realizations are what will transform her. I am mostly wondering if the need to be gentle, soft, and affirming are stopping us from giving such tools to her (assuming that the depression is coming from inside and not trauma). I’m fine with the idea that after giving the tools and telling her these things, she doesn’t get immediately better, that it will take time. THAT makes perfect sense... but not giving her this info and helping her understand things are they really are, and rather just talk about the feelings and practice breathing exercises... doesn’t seem right

  12. I know a person in high school that is experiencing a lot of depression and social anxiety. She is always down on herself and only speaks ill of herself. She talks about how she has no friends, she is overweight, and no one likes her.

    Also, perhaps unsurprisingly, she doesn't take care of herself physically, will do nearly anything for attention (even up to lying). She often inserts herself into conversations in inappropriate matters.

    The things she complains about are all self-induced. Her depression would be eased greatly if she started taking care of herself, stopped demanding attention, and stopped lying. She confided with my wife a few months ago that she thinks she is Lesbian (which is likely just a byproduct of either wanting attention or wanting to blame her struggles on something else).

    Naturally, I want to just grab her, shake her around, and demand she takes responsibility for these feelings. Realize God had a higher calling for you and she needs to realize her higher sense of duty. She needs To get over herself, get over her pride, stop demanding everyone's attention and love, and start taking care of herself physically... But being a high school girl... I don't know that that would go over well.

    I have seen this with many people experiencing depression and anxiety. a few times I have done what I have said above and it hasn't done much. On one such occasion, I was just met with tears and further stress.

    What is there to do? 

    Is this just a byproduct of today's society, and if so, how do we fix it once it has hit someone? Is the best course of action to have a higher expectation of such people? Is the only thing to do is tell them we love them? I feel like that doesn't do anything, depression isn't cured by people loving you, it is cured by getting over it yourself.

    Was depression such a big deal in generations prior to millennial?

    I have only experienced depression and anxiety for a short period on my mission. But I quickly realized that it was all me and within 3 months I was fine.

    This whole thing about depression frustrates me. Mostly because, like women's rights, I am not allowed to talk about it because I haven't experienced it... or something like that.

    I don't believe therapy is the best fix, and I don't think a pill is the best fix either. It is a fact (or as many call it, "my personal opinion") that depression and anxiety is at least started by pride. They feel they need to be the best or that unless they say something worthwhile or impressive, they aren't worth hearing (which is just a reflection on how they see others).

  13. 21 minutes ago, Vort said:

    Maybe here?


    Last paragraph:

    To answer your question directly: No, the Church is not “one step behind in these issues”. It looks to me like the Church is pulling at the cart rope with all its might to keep the horse from sliding further downhill, with the horse pulling so hard the other direction that the Church has to step further down to regain its footing and keep on pulling uphill. And as for “the public eye”, of course the Church is foolish in the public eye. It always has been and always will be. The mockers will mock, because that’s what they do. That is of no moment, and should be of no concern to any Saint.

    Yep! That was exactly it

  14. 7 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

    When it comes to sin, the idea is that we would NEVER purposefully get closer to the edge of the cliff.  If we're forced there, or if there is somehow a lesser of two evils situation, I guess I could see it.  But I would never see it as a positive thing.

    I heard it explained once (can’t remember where) that you can compare it to a man trying to pull a stubborn donkey up a hill. If the donkey pulls hard enough back, the man may need to step down and adjust his footing to better pull the donkey higher up the hill. This could be what is happening. Saints are pulling back so the church has to adjust their positioning to pull us higher.

  15. 13 minutes ago, askandanswer said:

    Having now looked at it, it looks like the Study Boards forum is more for discussing matters that arise from Sunday School,  Priesthood or Relief Society lessons, rather than being a repository for people's talks and lesson notes that others can draw from. 

    It can really be anything it wants. But with the size of this forum, I doubt adding another section would do anything more than adding another unutilized forum section.

  16. 58 minutes ago, NeuroTypical said:

    These days, we don't ask.   I wonder - whenever we see a teen boy these days, blessing the sacrament, doing a calling, going on a mission, do we automatically think "I don't hear anyone clarifying if they've broken the law of chastity with self-harm, so I'm led to believe the kid has a problem."?

    No, but what if the young man was giving a farewell talk and said “Ya, I’m attracted to women. I have been with my girlfriend for years now and sex is a natural desire. When I had my interview with my bishop, he didn’t ask about my actions concerning sex, but rather if I loved God.”

    He didn’t say he had sex... but it sure sounds like it. Not only would everyone be wondering what he was alluding to, but all the other young men and women in the ward that wanted to have sex may now feel some confusion about the church’s standard

  17. just listened to it. She was VERY vague about the lifestyle she was living, and so think that would be an important if we are going to support and celebrate her and her bravery in coming up.

    She spoke about leaders not asking what she was doing, but asking essentially “do you believe in Christ” and how that was a better way of approaching it... but how else do leaders judge whether she is worthy of a temple recommend. If she truly is worthy, then she had be utmost respect. If she used the rhetoric used in this talk to get her bishop to give her a recommend, I would be heavily disappointed.

    The way she talked about being LGBTQ and the fact no one came out and clarified whether she was living a temple worthy life or not leads me to believe she isn’t.

    The whole thing is frustrating 

  18. One of my frustrations of this whole lgbtq acceptance in the church is that in one setting they will say “feeling homosexual feelings is not a sin. Acting in it is”. In other settings they will invite lgbtq members to talk about and share about the pride of being a member of the lgbtq community. But they will never put those two conversations in the same sitting.

    Maybe this situation is different (I haven’t watched it yet), but in my experience, in (unofficial) church settings where they are seemingly “celebrating” lgbtq, they never make the clarification whether we are celebrating members for their strength in choosing to live the gospel despite their nature, or whether we are celebrating the fact that this person is reveling by having gay sex in a religion that is against it.

    Here is where I stand:

    - People have homosexual feelings as well as feelings of being the wrong gender

    - In recent years (and still today on the cultural level), members of the LGBTQ community have been attacked and insulted widely. It’s been widely accepted that they were a free punching bag. this is wrong.

    - We must to change how we treat the LGBTQ community if we can spect to be “Christlike”. 

    - homosexual acts are sinful. Gender is an eternal and essential principle

    - Admitting allowed to  yourself and others is therapeutic. I can see how identifying as a member of the LGBTQ community can be beneficial.

    - One can identify to be a part of the community does not necessarily mean they are “acting” in the feelings. They just find community among other in their same situation. And though I don’t necessarily agree (nor full disagree), celebrating the nature of your feelings can help brush away the depression and other trials that come with living the gospel and being an LGBTQ member.

    - I do wish they would clarify what exactly we are celebrating at unofficial church events. Are we trying to make a less toxic community for the LGBTQ, or are we celebrating the sin? At least clarify that identifying as LGBTQ doesn’t mean you act on it. Failing to do this is sending the wrong message every time.