wenglund

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  1. Like
    wenglund reacted to Anddenex in Temptations of Christ   
    I only have one part to add to this thought. In scripture I am not able to find any evidence that God would do anything to his children without warning. In my mind's eye, I am able to see our Lord requesting the Jews on multiple occasions requesting them to remove specific items from the temple, with clarity and instruction as to why.
    In my mind's eye, I see our Savior applying Doctrine and Covenants 121 pertaining to persuasion. When the Jews had specifically disregarded the counsel from their Lord, well, actions were taken to remove them physically.
    I would say these Jews in the temple:
    1) Were warned
    2) Were instructed
    3) They disobeyed and receive the consequence of disobedience
  2. Like
    wenglund reacted to Anddenex in Temptations of Christ   
    First, I don't think the connection of bread and wine are coincidental, but are symbolic in much the same way as the emblems of the sacrament.
    I agree. This was the first time I read John 2 with the impression that Christ's wine from his miracle was "better" -- the "good" wine -- at the feast which was given last, out of tradition. This reminded me of the first shall be last and the last shall be first. I am not sure if that was an intended meaning, but for some reason this time it felt like there was more and I am not sure I have discovered it. Ms. Anddenex simply says it is just saying Christ makes the best, perfect. I think there is more.
    Second, what is at issue isn't whether Jesus had the power to turn stones to bread or water to wine, or even whether it was necessarily inappropriate for him to do so either in service of himself or others. Rather,  it is the timing of such miracles or conditions under which the miracles may be rightly performed, or more to the point, whose place it is to make these determinations.  It is Christ who is to decide, and this at the behest of His Father, and not Satan or Mary or any of us. 
    I would say "true." This, at least for me, is the hardest aspect of this life and that is God's timetable of miracles in our own lives. I think this concept also is why we experience despondency and discouragement. We know of all the stories in the scriptures of marvelous healings and we want to be apart of those healings. When they do not happen, when the Lord says it is time, we then have the cognitive dissonance of, "Is it my righteousness, what is wrong with me, these happened in the scriptures"? When at this point it is a subject of "time" and "whose will."
    I believe is what a biography of one of the prophets I was reading who talked about a daughter passing away and how he knew if he had the keys to resurrect he probably would have raised his daughter to life -- his will. He then stated he was glad he did not have that power, because his knowledge was insufficient to make such choice.
    Third,  in spite of earthly hierarchies (mother superior to son, god of the earth superior to mankind), ultimately Christ is superior to all.
    I think I would add, Christ is only subject to the Father. When he was 12 he was about his Father's business despite the command to "honor thy father and mother." Joseph was his earthly father by adoption, which had to be according to Royal line. Yet, we know which Father Jesus honored if there were any opposition between the two. We see also his mother was unaware of what Jesus was doing, which once again gives witness -- even as a child -- he was superior and truly was subject the Father and the Father's will.
    And, fourth, when we prioritize the will of the Father in relation to desired "miracles" in our lives, and wait in faith patiently for His due time, obediently doing as He directs, we will receive  the very best, the "good wine" instead of the worst, and the "bread of life."  Indeed, Christ has given his all (his body and blood,  memorialized by the sacramental bread and wine)  to provide us the greatest gift and miracle of all.
    I think my other answers correlate with this thought.
  3. Like
    wenglund got a reaction from Anddenex in Temptations of Christ   
    In this coming weeks lesson  (Jn 2-4), I have noticed something of a parallel between the temptations of Christ and first several miracles that Jesus performed during his mortal ministry.
    For example, while Satan tempted Jesus to use his powers as the Son of God to turn stones to bread, his Mother, Mary, insinuated that Jesus use his divine powers to provide wine for the wedding feast. Regarding this subtle request, Elder Talmages makes the following salient point that is also instructive in relation to the  first temptation (see Jesus the Christ, Chapter 11, the Section on The Miracle at Cana in Galilee):
    "Nevertheless, His words to Mary at the marriage feast may have conveyed a gentle reminder of her position as the mother of a Being superior to herself; even as on that earlier occasion when she had found her Boy, Jesus, in the temple, He had brought home to her the fact that her jurisdiction over Him was not supreme. The manner in which she told Him of the insufficiency of wine probably suggested an intimation that He use His more than human power, and by such means supply the need. It was not her function to direct or even to suggest the exercise of the power inherent in Him as the Son of God; such had not been inherited from her. “What have I to do with thee?” He asked; and added: “Mine hour is not yet come.” Here we find no disclaimer of the ability to do what she apparently wanted Him to do, but the plain implication that He would act only when the time was right for the purpose, and that He, not she, must decide when that time had come. She understood His meaning, in part at least, and contented herself by instructing the servants to do whatsoever He directed. Here again is evidence of her position of responsibility and domestic authority at the social gathering." (bold mine)
    There are several points of interest.
    First, I don't think the connection of bread and wine are coincidental, but are symbolic in much the same way as the emblems of the sacrament.
    Second, what is at issue isn't whether Jesus had the power to turn stones to bread or water to wine, or even whether it was necessarily inappropriate for him to do so either in service of himself or others. Rather,  it is the timing of such miracles or conditions under which the miracles may be rightly performed, or more to the point, whose place it is to make these determinations.  It is Christ who is to decide, and this at the behest of His Father, and not Satan or Mary or any of us. 
    Third,  in spite of earthly hierarchies (mother superior to son, god of the earth superior to mankind), ultimately Christ is superior to all.
    And, fourth, when we prioritize the will of the Father in relation to desired "miracles" in our lives, and wait in faith patiently for His due time, obediently doing as He directs, we will receive  the very best, the "good wine" instead of the worst, and the "bread of life."  Indeed, Christ has given his all (his body and blood,  memorialized by the sacramental bread and wine)  to provide us the greatest gift and miracle of all. 
    Thanks, -Wade Englund-
  4. Like
    wenglund got a reaction from JohnsonJones in Temptations of Christ   
    In this coming weeks lesson  (Jn 2-4), I have noticed something of a parallel between the temptations of Christ and first several miracles that Jesus performed during his mortal ministry.
    For example, while Satan tempted Jesus to use his powers as the Son of God to turn stones to bread, his Mother, Mary, insinuated that Jesus use his divine powers to provide wine for the wedding feast. Regarding this subtle request, Elder Talmages makes the following salient point that is also instructive in relation to the  first temptation (see Jesus the Christ, Chapter 11, the Section on The Miracle at Cana in Galilee):
    "Nevertheless, His words to Mary at the marriage feast may have conveyed a gentle reminder of her position as the mother of a Being superior to herself; even as on that earlier occasion when she had found her Boy, Jesus, in the temple, He had brought home to her the fact that her jurisdiction over Him was not supreme. The manner in which she told Him of the insufficiency of wine probably suggested an intimation that He use His more than human power, and by such means supply the need. It was not her function to direct or even to suggest the exercise of the power inherent in Him as the Son of God; such had not been inherited from her. “What have I to do with thee?” He asked; and added: “Mine hour is not yet come.” Here we find no disclaimer of the ability to do what she apparently wanted Him to do, but the plain implication that He would act only when the time was right for the purpose, and that He, not she, must decide when that time had come. She understood His meaning, in part at least, and contented herself by instructing the servants to do whatsoever He directed. Here again is evidence of her position of responsibility and domestic authority at the social gathering." (bold mine)
    There are several points of interest.
    First, I don't think the connection of bread and wine are coincidental, but are symbolic in much the same way as the emblems of the sacrament.
    Second, what is at issue isn't whether Jesus had the power to turn stones to bread or water to wine, or even whether it was necessarily inappropriate for him to do so either in service of himself or others. Rather,  it is the timing of such miracles or conditions under which the miracles may be rightly performed, or more to the point, whose place it is to make these determinations.  It is Christ who is to decide, and this at the behest of His Father, and not Satan or Mary or any of us. 
    Third,  in spite of earthly hierarchies (mother superior to son, god of the earth superior to mankind), ultimately Christ is superior to all.
    And, fourth, when we prioritize the will of the Father in relation to desired "miracles" in our lives, and wait in faith patiently for His due time, obediently doing as He directs, we will receive  the very best, the "good wine" instead of the worst, and the "bread of life."  Indeed, Christ has given his all (his body and blood,  memorialized by the sacramental bread and wine)  to provide us the greatest gift and miracle of all. 
    Thanks, -Wade Englund-
  5. Like
    wenglund reacted to Traveler in Forgiveness and trust   
    I believe you are confusing principles.  Forgiveness is what you do to validate your righteousness intentions towards others.  Being Trustworthy is what you become though mastering the ability to forgive ourselves and others.   I believe it was Shakespeare that said - "To thine ownself be true and it shall follow as the night the day - you cannot be false to any man."
     
    The Traveler
  6. Like
    wenglund got a reaction from Traveler in Need help re. Plan of salvation   
    Going even deeper, the purpose of the test isn't just to determine if we will choose good or evil, but it is also a means for increasing in faith and experience so that, ultimately, we may be able to better see /comprehend the Father in ways far advanced than during the pre-existence, where we had the Father always before our eyes. 
    In other words, to fully know God necessitated that, for a time, He be hidden from us. Not knowing God or knowing of Him, is the beginning of the process of knowing Him better.
    It requires, as symbolized by Abraham, that we leave our home and parents and journey to a strange land.
    Thanks, -Wade Englund-
  7. Like
    wenglund reacted to estradling75 in Forgiveness and trust   
    When we talk forgiveness we generally mention D&C 64:
    9 Wherefore, I say unto you, that ye ought to forgive one another; for he that forgiveth not his brother his trespasses standeth condemned before the Lord; for there remaineth in him the greater sin.
    10 I, the Lord, will forgive whom I will forgive, but of you it is required to forgive all men.
    This is a hard thing.  The Lord knows this.  It is made even harder when we have a misunderstanding of what forgiveness means... The Lord however makes it very clear in the very next verse what forgiveness really is
    11 And ye ought to say in your hearts—let God judge between me and thee, and reward thee according to thy deeds.
    When you can truly turn it over to God for re-balance and redressing of the wrong done to you that is forgiveness.   Please note this in not the same as trust.  Trust is earned.  If you wouldn't trust a stranger then there is no reason to trust again someone who has broken said trust.  With trust you just be careful you are not being punitive about it (aka you would trust a stranger but you refuse to trust them)
  8. Like
    wenglund reacted to KScience in Forgiveness and trust   
    Your question immediately brought to my mind the talk from last conference by Jeffrey R Holland (Sunday morning)
    “Forgive, and ye shall be forgiven,”11 Christ taught in New Testament times. And in our day: “I, the Lord, will forgive whom I will forgive, but of you it is required to forgive all men.”12 It is, however, important for some of you living in real anguish to note what He did not say. He did not say, “You are not allowed to feel true pain or real sorrow from the shattering experiences you have had at the hand of another.” Nor did He say, “In order to forgive fully, you have to re enter a toxic relationship or return to an abusive, destructive circumstance.” But notwithstanding even the most terrible offenses that might come to us, we can rise above our pain only when we put our feet onto the path of true healing. That path is the forgiving one walked by Jesus of Nazareth, who calls out to each of us, “Come, follow me.”13
     
  9. Like
    wenglund got a reaction from Aaddaamm in Forgiveness and trust   
    One way to look at it is, since we lack the capacity of God to look upon men's heart,  God has made restitution (including restoring lost trust) a part of the repentance process, and not a part of forgiveness process.
    Also, forgiveness may rightly be viewed as a way of unburdening the victim rather than entirely absolving the perpetrator.
    Thanks, -WAde Englund- 
  10. Like
    wenglund reacted to CV75 in Temptations of Christ   
    I have found that the sense that we have to prove something can be our downfall. Faith, hope and charity do not engender that feeling since our focus is on witnessing of God and not of ourselves. And what do we really need to prove to God if we are upright in doing “all we can do” in relation to receiving His grace anyway? “I will prove to Thee” vs “I will do They will” are two different things, and I think from the Pearl of Great Price, we can see how this is reflected in the approaches taken by Lucifer and Jesus.
    The devil is a liar, so I’m not sure whether or that he was even able to deliver on his claims. But assuming he was, and that it was he and not the Spirit that took Jesus from place to place, Jesus won anyway. When the JST mentions the Spirit taking and showing Jesus the pinnacle of the temple and the kingdoms of the world, this is consistent with the practice of the devil countering, interrupting and molesting the prophets before and after their revelations.
    It is said that the devil only has as power has we grant him. https://www.lds.org/general-conference/1987/10/the-great-imitator?lang=eng :
    “…I do not really think the devil can make us do anything. Certainly he can tempt and he can deceive, but he has no authority over us which we do not give him.
    “The power to resist Satan may be stronger than we realize. The Prophet Joseph Smith taught: “All beings who have bodies have power over those who have not. The devil has no power over us only as we permit him. The moment we revolt at anything which comes from God, the devil takes power” (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, sel. Joseph Fielding Smith, Salt Lake City: Deseret Book Co., 1938, p. 181).
    “He also stated, “Wicked spirits have their bounds, limits, and laws by which they are governed” (History of the Church, 4:576). So Satan and his angels are not all-powerful.”
  11. Like
    wenglund got a reaction from CV75 in Temptations of Christ   
    II am glad you mentioned competitiveness since it is not often considered  in the context of Christ's temptations.  
    In a way, I believe that Satan was tempting Christ to  provide some physical show of power that came anywhere close to his own--not just in the way that Satan was able to transport Christ here and there, but also the vast kingdom of the world over which Satan ruled. It was the ultimate power struggle, on earth, so to speak.
    I figure that Satan knew Christ wouldn't take the bait, and would thus consider it as proof of Satan's superiority--not unlike when a bully get's in someone's face and ask what they are going to do about it, and considers himself the better when the people being bullied don't rise to the challenge. 
    However, the beauty and splendor in Christ's responses to the temptations was that it spiritually demonstrated that Satan was  powerless over him, and as such Christ's power and his works and dominions, before then and to follow, far exceeded that of Satan'--not unlike how greater courage may be evident in walking away from bullies picking fights.
    This, as always, is an object lesson  for all of us. Gaining empowerment that far exceeds Satan comes from not succumbing to the temptations of Satan.
    Thanks, -Wade Englund-
  12. Like
    wenglund reacted to The Folk Prophet in Temptations of Christ   
    Legit!
    Which makes way more sense as to how the temptations were, indeed, temptations. The temptation was, I think, do thine own will, or worse, do the tempter's will instead of the Father's. 
    Excellent thought. 
  13. Like
    wenglund got a reaction from The Folk Prophet in Temptations of Christ   
    One of the purposes behind Christ being tempted was so that he would be "made like his brethren"  and "suffered being tempted" so that he could "succor those that are tempted."  ( Heb. 2:17-18)
    For this to occur necessitated that Jesus resolve his hunger in the same way as his brethren.: His use of power, then, could not exceed that of his brethren.
    Nevertheless, your question can be expanded beyond eating and drinking to also include the use of "power" to heal the sick and afflicted--be it taking herbs and medicine to giving or receiving priesthood blessings.
    And, while it seems evident that, during his mortal ministry, Jesus used his "powers" for the benefit of others--including healing the sick, I don't see why it would be wrong for him to use those powers at times to heal himself (assuming he ever got sick) or to prevent himself from getting sick. After all, we are told to lovie thy neighbor (brethren) as thyself.
    As for where to draw the line? I think Jesus Christ made that abundantly clear. The line for him, and ought to be for all of us, is the "will of the Father."
    Thanks, -Wade Englund-
  14. Like
    wenglund reacted to The Folk Prophet in Temptations of Christ   
    Sounds nice and....random.
  15. Like
    wenglund reacted to zil in Temptations of Christ   
    You didn't ask about those, just about the apparent conflict between the two Matthew verses.  And there's a difference between being tempted and the Spirit explicitly leading him somewhere for the express purpose of being tempted - the one rational, the other absurd.
  16. Like
    wenglund reacted to Emmanuel Goldstein in Temptations of Christ   
    Doing as Satan suggested would have been a sin and he came to earth to be like us. When was a the last time you turned a rock into bread? Oh, right, we as humans do not have that ability. Therefore he would have been cheating, thus sinning.
    he was in the desert to fast and experience hunger and want, not to show off his godlike powers.
  17. Like
    wenglund reacted to Aaddaamm in Temptations of Christ   
    To above comment. 
    the priesthood power of God is not be used for selfish purposes. But is used for the aid of others.
  18. Like
    wenglund reacted to mikbone in Temptations of Christ   
    I posted this about a month ago, after doing some counseling with my adult children  
     
    1) Command that these stones be made bread.  - Christ had just fasted for 40 days.  No doubt He was hungry.  The superficial temptation is to satisfy our physical carnal desires.  But deeper, is the sin of Pride.  Satan was tempting Christ to use his creative powers to prove that He was God by transmuting stone to bread.  Beware of Pride  And Christ's response - Deuteronomy 8:3
    2) If thou be the Son of God, cast thyself down. - Satan even quotes scripture Psalm 91: 11-12 to bolster his temptation.  The superficial temptation is to rely upon others, and once again to prove his godly powers.  But as I studied this - and recalled the events in Gethsemane, coupled with hardship that occurs during a normal lifetime.  I recognized that Satan was going to a much darker place.  He was trying with all his might to cause Despair to enter into the heart of our Lord and Savior.  Real despair - the type that leads to concepts of suicide or annihilation. Despair is a tool of the Devil, it is the complete absence of Hope.  Both of these temptations are of an emotional nature. There are times in our lives when all seems at loss and no forward progress appears as a possibility.  We must recognize that Despair is from the Evil One and fight it with hope.  Do Not Despair  Christ's response - Deuteronomy 6:16
    3) All these things will I give thee, if thou wilt fall down and worship me.  On the surface once again we see the temptation for worldly stuff.  But it was at the cost of changing allegiances from God to Satan.  As I look deeper though, I perceive a common sin that many of us indulge.  We seek Shortcuts, the path of least resistance.  God wants all of his children to have - all that He has.  But He wants us to obtain these gifts, rewards, property, and increase through the process of overcoming all things.  Only when we deserve the rewards should we have them.  These sins can be somewhat perceived as a spiritual nature.  Christ created the Earth.  At age 12 He could have overcome Rome and conquered the entire world.  When Peter smote off of the Roman centurion's ear, Christ stated, "Thinkest thou that I cannot now pray to my Father, and he shall presently give me more than twelve legions of angels?"  A single roman legion is considered 5,000 soldiers.  Imagine 5,000 military soldiers invading your hometown.  And recognize that a single angel of the Lord killed over 185,000 men in 2 Kings 19:35.  Jesus was proclaiming his authority to command 60,000 Angels!  But He didn't.  He bid his time and suffered the will of the Father in all things.  How many times do we seek after things that we have not earned.  Fornication or adultery, purchasing goods on debt, unjust abuse of power, dishonest dealings with our fellow man to produce lucre we did not earn.  God wants us to have everything, but He wants us to earn it, so that we can be a wise steward and use our increase to bless others.  There is no heavenly lottery. Christ's response - Deuteronomy 6:13-14
    Pride is the root of all sin.  Despair is a tool of the Devil, we have no business dwelling with despair.  If darkness gathers we must use the light of hope to dispel its effects. In ourselves and others.  And we must trust in the Lord to have the patience and work ethic to achieve the gifts and increase that the Lord has in store for us.  
  19. Like
    wenglund reacted to zil in Temptations of Christ   
    The JST fixes this problem.
  20. Like
    wenglund reacted to zil in Temptations of Christ   
    The Holy Ghost (the Spirit) does not lead us into temptation.  Temptation is something we experience because of agency, opposition, and our fallen nature, but the Spirit doesn't say, "Here, come on into this here brothel and see if you can take it." or other such things.  The Spirit leads us to God and to good.
    Undoubtedly, Christ was tempted in all things - beyond our ability to withstand, I'm sure - but it wasn't the Spirit that led him into temptation.
  21. Like
    wenglund reacted to anatess2 in Temptations of Christ   
    I’d say Power is that which is beyond the capability of the limited mortal body.
    Turning stone to bread would not be de facto sinful if the act was done for the purpose of completing his mortal ministry.  For example, if it is between him dying of hunger or living to fulfill the Atonement, turning stone to bread would be an act of obedience to God’s plan.
     
  22. Like
    wenglund reacted to CV75 in Temptations of Christ   
    In this way Jesus was 1. tempted to tempt the Father to rescue Him, 2. to provide a sign to the devil to prove He was divine, and 3. to provide to Himself a sign that He was worthy of the Father's protection. We can see elements of the devil enticing Him into fear, doubt, insecurity, pride, competitiveness and a carnal, sensual and devilish attitude. "If" can be a powerful word!
  23. Like
    wenglund got a reaction from CV75 in Temptations of Christ   
    These are the two points I was hoping would be brought out by my two provocative questions. At their core, each of the three temptations was an enticement to not only violate laws of appetite and so forth, but also the two great commandments upon which rest all the laws and the prophets .  They were designed to defy the will of Him to whom we ought to be subjected,and those to whom he would have us serve.
    Thanks, -Wade Englund-
  24. Like
    wenglund reacted to The Folk Prophet in Temptations of Christ   
    I find this interesting to consider. Where is the line? Jesus's "power" includes the ability to move His hands. Did he utilize that power to feed himself when he broke His fast? Of course. So where's the line. Where is using power -- any power -- to feed oneself crossing the line of appropriate to inappropriate? Is there something inherently wrong with turning water into wine if one has "the power" to do so? What if that "power" is a chemical/physics process? If I develop the scientific process to convert water to another liquid is the usage of that "power" inherently inappropriate to use if I'm going to consume the liquid myself? If Satan hadn't "tempted" Christ, is the act of turning a stone into bread to eat after a fast de facto sinful?
  25. Like
    wenglund reacted to Anddenex in Temptations of Christ   
    Pertaining to the three types of temptations our Savior experienced the following talk by Howard W. Hunter, "The Temptations of Christ," is a good read.
    1) First temptation covers the appetites of the flesh. We all will list to obey the flesh or the spirit. He that is spiritually minded hath eternal life, he that is carnally minded (flesh) receives death.
    2) Second temptation covers the temptation of power. The desire within us all to perform some exploit that will cause all onlookers to be amazed at the power we have.
    3) Third temptation covers the root of all evil - pride. The desire to be worshipped (an icon or idol), to have power and the riches this world has to offer.
    Others have provided some additional thoughts, which appear to have some application also.